Tasha

Re: 6E Mess Repped!! That is why we are taking a break from one of our 5e campaigns to play a 6e mini-series that I am running. It will be a Champions game, but it has no real tie to any other campaign. This way we can assess and learn the new rules with little or no baggage from our current campaigns. Perhaps before you house rule the system to death Bala, you could try to run a short 6e game. Heck, if it works for you. Make it into another adventure you can write up and sell. Run it with no houserules beyond powerlevels of powers, and how high you want CV, Dex, and Speed. See what the players think. Don't overthink the game/adventure.

Re: Thats one nimble little bull I comes down to the whole who goes first thingie in a segment. As to the Magician, I game with a good slight of hand artist. I have never seen him do card tricks, but he is pretty good with his hands. Before him, I worked with a guy that did amazing things with real Liberty Silver dollars. Also I have always had a high interest in Magic (Slight of hand illusions), so I tend to watch for certain things. That guy was pretty good. Funny thing about it, was that I thought you were setting someone up with that movie. So I was trying to avoid an argument by guessing his dex to be more Human like. Like I said this whole thing is real subjective. I don't balance around reality. I balance characters against the Campaign. That guy might have an 18-23 dex in my Champions game. In a gritty Dark Champions game he might be only 11-13 Dex with a good Slight of Hand roll. As for the shooter he could have a high dex and speed or he could have Fast Draw, Levels in Pistol and Penalty skill levels in both Range and with Multiple Attack.

Re: 6E Mess From 32m up the width of a thin cone is 16.5m (ie about 15% of a Football field) This assumes the writeups that I included in an above post. (ie under 70pt powers) Doubling the length (which is what a doubling would do) wouldn't change the width at 32m at all. Unless you removed thin Cone and doubled the length of the attack which wouldn't be a 9d6Ap attack either (for 70pts or less). So make your arguments within the real numbers without throwing up examples that couldn't be written up in the points allotted. Tasha

Re: Thats one nimble little bull Well that was a non explanation. Also way to make a fellow poster feel completely dismissed. (ie her opinion dismissed out of hand) Do you think he has high dex? Do you think he has low dex? The problem is that with the Hero System everything is Subjective and can be written up in many different ways. Also personal biases and campaign/genre tropes can also drive certain decisions as to how things are written up. For me. I tend to give characters the benefit of the doubt. If you wrote up that guy as an 18 dex speed 4 guy as a PC, I would say that is ok. Though I would point out that your PC was much better naturally with card tricks than the guy in the video. I guess I use hero to model folk from books, movies, TV shows, comics. I like the CINEMATIC reality. If I wanted cinematic REALITY or REALISM, I would play GURPS.

Re: 6E Mess Blast 8d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Area Of Effect (32m Cone; +3/4), Thin Cone (-1/4) (70 Active Points) or Blast 9d6 (vs. ED), Area Of Effect (16m Cone; +1/2), Thin Cone (-1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4) (67 Active Points) It really helps to say how long the cone is when you are talking about numbers. BTW the size of a cone is the Length (something that changed from 5e), and it's 30deg wide (A normal cone is 60deg) {BTW I sense a set of templates being made to help us with our 6e AOE's) I think that Ghost Angel's numbers prove that AP attacks aren't that much more devastating than non ap attacks. Actually AP really makes a huge difference in Heroic games where the ratio of Defenses to DC's is much larger (ie More damage vs lower defenses) "I try to get out, but they keep pulling me back in!!"

Re: Thats one nimble little bull Seeing that he isn't that nimble with the card manipulation. I would guess a Dex of 11-13. With a Slight of Hand roll of around 13- or so. Also PS Card Tricks on 13- I say that because he seems very practiced with the cards, but I could sense some moments of awkwardness in his manipulations of the card deck. ok how about this guy

Re: Dresden Files meets Supernatural Right which is how unluck works. Stuff will work just fine just as long as it doesn't HAVE to work. Have to work meaning that if the phone has to work to say bring the PC's allies together, then roll unluck. If you roll multiple 6's then tech destroyed. One 6 I would rule is either damage or temporary malfunction with no damage. Also if the Wizard is getting complacent in using tech. Make him roll his unluck. This shouldn't be something that is constantly being rolled on, just when things are going really well. Of course have an evolved Wizard that has figured out how to work with Tech can be interesting as well. esp if the last wizard who could use tech was a Black Wizard and the Tech Link is therefore seedy because of that history. Perhaps that wizard used black charms to tamp down on the power leakage that destroys tech.

Re: Disappointment

Re: Disappointment I don't think that SOE is capable of making a game that is fun. I think that they are all about the subscription fees/box sales and really couldn't give a darn about anything else. I mean honestly, when was the last time that SOE came out with something that wasn't broken at launch and boring as watching paint peel.

Re: 6E Mess First the numbers and Rules don't tell stories. That's what the Players and GM are there for. The rules give a foundation that you can hang stories on, but the stories come from the Gm and Players in the game. Been playing heroic games since 1e Fantasy Hero with that ruleset on Skill Levels. Never a huge problem. It takes 2x 3point Skill levels to = 1DC increased. Now in my experience we never had characters that had more than 6 Combat Skill levels (I guess there were some folk with some 2pt OCV CSLs but those don't count). Which means that someone could add 3d6 to an unAdvantaged Blast or 1d6 to a Killing Attack. Of course the person doing that has base CV (Or less if they Haymaker). So again I don't see how 3DC's can hose a Champions game. Now players using standard Tactics, THEY are the dangerous ones. Hell, I have been running games with the same lack of houserules for over 20 years (Both Champions, Fantasy Hero, Cyber Hero, and Star Hero, but mostly Champions). I let the players take what ever powers they want (I even allow Cosmic Power Pools). I make sure that everyone is balanced and we go and have fun. I am flexable like a palm tree, if the characters want to go into left field. Well I give them a humdinger of a left field and we have fun. I'll say it again. I have few Houserules. I have the campaign limits (Averages and maximums) for buying nearly everything (ie Avg DC 12 max pts 75). I set the point limit higher than normal (ie 500pts inc. 75 Complications) (To get interesting non-generic PCs). I work with the players to make sure that team roles are filled and that roles aren't over filled. Then we play. I do whatever is best to have fun. One thing that I learned from the over prepared, over tense GM's that I played with though the years was this one thing. Flexability makes for some of the best games that your players will ever experience. GM vs Player groups are the most miserable folk to play with. They say they are having fun, but it's really one simmering fight between everyone. If I were you, I would take that binder of houserules and throw them in the nearest firesafe recepticle and burn them! Throw off your chains of inflexability! Learn to appreciate the wonderful rules as they are written! When rules/plot questions come up. Think what would be the most fun for the players! Funny how just this last bit of rethink will change everything for the better. I am going to try to ignore this thread now. Bala's threads make me more tense than an NGD discussion on Marriage Rights. try real hard.... may not be able too...temptation is very strong...

Re: 6E Mess I was going for a Kitchen sink writeup. It probably isn't really too in genre to have someone's scent change due to changing forms. Heck it's how Wolverine figured out the Peter Parker = Spidey. Killer Shrike laid it out VERY well. nothing more really needs to be said. Bala needs another therapeutic read of 6E. Not just an assumption that everything is the same from 3e and 4e. That would fix many of his misconceptions of what the powers do and what is needed in this case. Tasha

Re: 6E Mess

Re: 6E Mess Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing, Mental, Radio, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (42 Active Points). I guess if you added Cellular to change DNA it becomes 55pts, but shouldn't be necessary. If you did the External Version of Cellular it becomes 51 pts Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing, Mental, Radio, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups), Cellular (Externals ie Retinas, Fingerprints, Hair follicles etc), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (51 Active Points). It really isn't needed. Enchanced Senses see you as you are NOW. Radar doesn't see The Thing or The Hulk as their trapped whimpy alter-egos, no does it see their Superdense and huge counterparts when they are in Human form. Really!

Re: 6E Mess

Re: 6E Mess

Re: 6E Mess Multiform works for folk who transform into a completely different character. You don't have to have a different personality, though you can have different Skills, powers, Complication from the base form. It's great for things like the Druid that becomes a variety of different animals (and not just an aspect of the animal), or the Dragon that has a Human form that can do stuff that the Dragon cannot, Lycantropy can be bought with this power esp if The character changes enough to make the other forms different. Not all folk who change need Multiform. ie Bruce Banner changes into The Hulk by turning on his levels in Growth and Density Increase (along with his other defenses). During those short periods when The Thing can change back into his Ben Grimm human form, he just turns off his Density increase. The Wolfman turns on his various powers to Change. I think that you have players who have been playing for at least since 4th edition. I remember that we used to do foolish things in 4e like buying Shapeshift to change to a single form. Though turning on powers to change to super form (even if that form was a huge Grey rock or a Dragon person) has been part of the system since forever. 5e Changed the way many characters were constructed (ie Growth and Shrinking always on was used to permanently change the size of people. in 5e you just say that they character is that tall, buy a Disad and you are go to go). I highly recommend rereading the rules books. There were many changes in 5E that are still true on 6E. There are many more clarifications in 6e than even in 5er. Forget what you know about character building in 4e and before. Things are different now. Read and learn the changes. There will be a quiz on Friday.... (j/k)

Re: 6E Mess

Re: Disappointment Hell, I would have settled for it being fun. No joy there. Tasha

Re: Thats one nimble little bull Funny, is that if the Published Characters were presented to me as PC's I would accept them. My preference for examples would for them to at least show what the 3 character types (Brick, Martial Artist, Energy Proj), should look like in the CU. That they are all at or near dex 23, Speed 5 (6) def 20, CV8 is just boring. As for why Steve doesn't change the CU's Dex/CV/SPD averages. That's simple. Many people play their Champions games at or near those averages. To change them could mean that people wouldn't buy the books full of NPCs. That would mean low profits for Hero/DOJ. I think that in the long run that Bricks that had exceeding low dexes due to size or being cumbersome might get a dex boost. They will probably get some kind of OCV boost, with DCV staying low. I think that many PCs will have higher OCVs than DCVs (base Characteristics), with less taking Combat skill levels.

Re: 6th Ed Hardcopies sighted, ahoy! In my impatience to get my copy, I printed the PDFs out on my Doublesided Color Laser printer. Got them bound at Office Depot. Now I have a set that I can beat to hell with almost no guilt associated I can't wait to get my "Official" dead tree editions. It will be nice to have better bindings

Re: Dresden Files meets Supernatural You only make unluck rolls, when the players are getting complacent, or when the tech NEEDS to work. So if the wizard gets into the new Hummer H2 and is being chased by the super undead T-rex, you make the roll to see if the stress makes the magic short out the vehicle's electrics. You don't have to make rolls every time the mage makes contact with tech. Just when they are starting to rely on or need said tech. Also the recent Dresden books are at a much higher powerlevel than the early books. Harry currently is scary powerful, more powerful than the council knows. In the first books, he had trouble controlling his magic without foci. If you are doing something closer to the current time Dresdenverse, then go all out with the weirdos. A normal with enough points to balance against the supes can be pretty awesome, even if they are a bit naive about magic etc. My Urban Fantasy game had: Mica - A Pixie who was a small friendly thing, that could melt you with her pixie dust if you annoyed her. Lilac - A male Dryad. Yeah a male dryad, unfortunately with the same powers for seducing men as a regular Female Dryad. He was also painfully Straight. He had friends with all of the animals of the city. Brilt - A house Brownie, who has been trained in the Wizardly Arts. So he has the heart of a butler. With the powers of a Wizard. He had actually turned himself into a new kind of Faerie, but we didn't get to develop that yet. Renee - A Midgard born (as opposed to Faerie lands born) Werewolf. She has the powers/abilities of a Faerieland born Werewolf. Though her Alpha has her fooled into not challenging him for leadership of the pack. She has 3 forms (Human, Wolfgirl, and Large Wolf). She is one of the most frightening of the PCs in Combat. "Jack" - A mundane FBI agent attached to the PCs to help them navigate though the strangeness of US laws. He was great with guns and really gave the group the grounding it needed. The PCs were part of a Law Enforcement/Ambassador mashup organization trying to keep Supes and Mundanes from killing on another. Also to smooth over any misunderstandings that come from the culture clash of the Faerieland refugees meeting the Normal mundane people of our earth. They met some NPCs too. Abigail, a "human" firemage in trouble who turned out to be the missing princess of Dragonkind. Who is friends with the Kidnapped Princess Miranda of the Seelie court. Miranda is the only Sidhe noble on our earth, and all of the fae host (both seelie and unseelie)on earth has pledged fealty to her. She in turn has promised that her people would stop hunting humans for sport and to not do the nasty things that many of the faerie love to do. That they would only fight humans if attacked first. etc. She is missing and the PCs need to find her alive. If she dies then the promises she made die with her. Which would mean open hunting on humans and a war that he Fae would lose. Also they saved a Female Dwarf Rosemarie, who's talents run to mechanics. She runs a vehicle repair shop with 4 Gremlins who wish to reform (they want to learn to fix stuff and not be destructive).

Re: Dresden Files meets Supernatural Actually I would do Dresden's "Kills tech" as Unluck, and have the conscious "Kills Tech" thing be a real power. Mostly because the shorts out tech seems to either happen at the worst possible moment, or when Harry wills it. I totally recommend a mundane. I found that having a person who doesn't know about magic grounded the rest of the characters. Be careful with adding too many supes to a team in Harry's universe. They can really unbalance the team or require that everyone be somewhat powerful to fit in. This can kill some of the feel of the Dresden Universe.

Re: Thats one nimble little bull First, the meager squishy rules for "Cover your Eyes" are on pg 226 6E1 & pg 21 6E2. While there are no guildelines given for what preparing for a flash might do for the character, it is VERY explicit is saying that said action was NOT something that could be Aborted to (GM's permission always trumping the published rules of course) so YMMV. Now I am not saying that a "Classic Brick" shouldn't have a dex lower than 23, In fact I have said that said brick should be 18 Dex so he goes before than the Dex 14 Competent Normals (pg 440 6e1). Though if a player came to me with Taurus, I wouldn't say no. Though he is a bit DC lite for my games (I run at the DC 12 average, I talked about in other posts). I like the Dex and CVs set a bit higher than my normals games. I think that Supers should react faster than an Average Heroic Character. Yes you may save some points by having a rather slow Dex. You might still do well in the campaign since you still have decent CV and Spd. But you will be going dead last against most of the thugs, Let me tell you letting 6 guys with dc12 blasters and the levels to hit you get the drop on you is going to hurt a lot.

Re: Thats one nimble little bull I can't believe that I have explain basic Hero Tactics with someone who posts on these boards... Why would I want to go first. It allows me to react offensively to what the slower people are doing. Also my attacks hit first and damage first. That is a HUGE advantage since I could stun or knock unconscious others who go after me in the Segment. There are also Defensive reasons to do so. Blocking for others, Missle Deflecting for others as well, btw strictly speaking one can only Abort to defensive actions for one's self (pg 21 6E2). Also you cannot abort to move beyond using a Dive for cover action. One cannot abort to "Cover their eyes". All of which become possible with a held action. I wouldn't want to play in your supers game with the 8 Dex's and cvs of 3 and 4. It would be like playing a game of "Super Geriatric Wars" where the old superheroes who can barely get around with a walker fight their equally old nemesis's. If this is your preferred style of play, great, again don't base the whole CU around this. I don't think you will get many takers in that kind of game. Tasha

Re: Thats one nimble little bull Grumble: Ok I THINK that people understood the comments I was making here. While it did have some real 5E think going in. I'll re-do my comments for those of your who have conviently forgot 5e... Taurus is apparently a Brick that is more concerned with doing damage than absorbing it. His Dex and DCV are high'ish to make up for his average Defenses. In MMO terms he is a bit of a avoidance brick. In that he is expected to get missed more often than a more standard Mitigation brick (ie high PD/ED) who is expected to bounce more damage. His Dex is high to help him go first in combat. Now I keep seeing people say that going first isn't that important. Well I submit to you that going first is VERY powerful in any combat. It allows Mr Taurus to delay till the slower folk to and this allows him to react to the combat better than a person who went later in the segment. Honestly I prefer "Classic Bricks" to have Dex 18-20 and have DCVs of 6-7. They should have defenses near the campaign max. (for me since I like a DC 12 game those defenses should be around 30PD/ED) IMHO a properly written up Martial Artist SHOULD have High Dex, High Speed, High DCV. A martial artist survives the battlefield by being able to not be hit. Again that going first, this allows the MA to react to the battlefield dynamically. Eagle Eye misses out on all but the high speed. His Martial arts do pump his DCV up, but not to where a "Classic MA should be". The energy projector seemed like the only one who's CVs/Dex/SPD are where they should have been. What I am seeing is that perhaps instead of doing the problematic thing of using the average of all published characters to figure out the average Dex/Speed of the CU. Steve should have DECIDED what that average SHOULD be, then worked from there to come up with the range of stats that PCs in CU should have. As it is we probably have a bias in the numbers driving the average down to 20, instead of the higher dex of 23 that had been stated in early editions as being CU average. Pg S22 of 4e Hard Cover Champions: based on survey data. Those campaigns ran with DC11, Average PD&ED 25, Average Dex 23, and Average SPD 5.5 Pretty much the averages of every campaign that I have ever played in/Run. I like these levels, and I prefer to play within these levels. Heck it seems like most of the CU works in a game with those averages. I hope that Steve makes those or similar stat levels official when he publishes the 6e Version of the CU. Now I think that SOME characters will take advantage of the separate DEX, OCV, DCV values and you might see high dex characters with low CVs that make up for it was skill levels. I think that most characters will stay the same as their 5e counterparts. Again there are real good reasons not to change.