Chris Goodwin

I was remembering the other day about how in a game I ran back in the 80's, where I pregenned the powers, I gave one character a weird Life Support: limbs can survive independently of the character. I also gave him Regeneration... 3 or 4 BODY, I can't remember. Part of the point to that was to let him reattach his limbs, which 3rd edition Champions didn't have a way to do. Admittedly, it left the matter of losing a limb up to the GM. So now I'm writing up some Life Support equivalents to 5th/6th's limb recovery and resurrection adders for Healing/Regeneration, with a note that you have to buy them Usable On Others if you want to apply them like that.

And further delayed until Monday at 6pm.

Further delayed to Sunday at noon.

I just discovered that.

Event sign ups are live, but the site is slammed. I've yet to successfully sign up for anything.

It looks like scheduling is completed, and there are two HERO System games on the schedule. Mark Morgan is running a Champions game on Friday from 2pm to 8pm, and my Danger International game is Saturday from 2pm to 6pm.

These are my rough opinions and guidelines. For non-superheroic games To start with characters equivalent to about a first level D&D basic character (either the original B/X or later BECMI edition games), you could expect to see about 100 total points for Hero editions up through 5th edition revised (5er), or 125 total points in 6th. (75 base with 25 Disadvantages in first-gen, 50+50 or 75+25 in fourth and fifth, 125 with 25 Matching Complications in 6th.) First level AD&D (1e or 2e) characters would probably be about 125 total points up through Hero 5er, and probably about 150 total in Hero 6th. Probably 75+50 or 100+25 in earlier editions, 150 with 25-50 in Matching in 6th. First level D&D (3rd-5th edition) characters would probably come to about 150 total points in Hero 5er and prior, and 175 in Hero 6th. 75+75 or 100+50 in earlier editions, 175 with 50 Matching in 6th. A lot of people have written a lot over the years about advancement; you could probably not go too wrong with about 5-10 Hero XP per *D&D level for lower level play (say, 1st-5th), and 10, 15, 20 or more XP per level for higher level D&D characters. The games are different, and someone will probably have their own ideas and guidelines, but they probably won't be far off from mine. Champions Early edition Champions characters would tend to be around 200 total points, for the equivalent of a beginning superhero (immediately post-origin story) in their first issue; 225-250 points would make them more rounded. The books made it a point to talk about how different a 200 total point character with 50 points of experience would be from a 250 total point starting character, but they never really went into a lot of detail. You could look at the original Strike Force book to see the differences between starting player characters in Aaron Allston's campaign and their more experienced counterparts. Fourth edition set a "standard superhero" at 250, or 100 base with 150 in Disadvantages; earlier editions started with 100 base, with anywhere from 100 to 150 or more points worth of Disadvantages. (Diminishing returns in 1st-3rd editions meant you took more Disadvantages to make up those points; the sweet spot was 225-250 total, with 100 of that from base points.) 250 never felt like enough to me in 4th edition; there was a lot more to buy, newer Skills and Powers and whatnot, but never enough points to really realize your concept. Fifth edition put a standard superhero at 350 total points; 200 base with 150 in Disadvantages. A sixth edition standard superhero is 400; 400 total points with 75 points in Matching Complications. Fifth and sixth edition totals seem to me to be more in line with Marvel Cinematic Universe characters in their first movies; maybe inexperienced but well rounded and powerful to be sure. I hope this was helpful, and I'm trying not to editorialize too much. I've got some strong opinions, as you've no doubt seen.

What point levels did you start them at? Fantasy Hero in 5th edition sort of assumes you're going to start them at 150 (75+75), 200 (100+100), or 250 (125+125). The point levels you're describing come in at around cosmic-level superhero territory; I think we're looking at Superman and Galactus level. The game also generally assumes the 1-5 XP per session; I've never seen or even heard of large-block XP awards for completing arcs. If you're starting them at higher points and giving higher XP awards, you are for sure going to see exactly what you describe. And while I personally tend to not favor Fantasy Hero, or heroic level games in general, with characters with lots of Powers, if you're running a game with high point values you're pretty much going to have to let your players spend points on them. Fighters with weapon tricks or special attacks? Wizards with some truly earth-shaking abilities? Shapeshifting druid-types? Thieves with stealth-suites (Invisibility, Desolidification, Telekinesis)?

Example: assume you rolled a 4 BODY hit to the head. The head has a STUNx of 5, so that blow does 4 BODY and 20 STUN. If the target had 3 rPD and 8 nPD (for 11 total) from whatever sources, (4 - 3) 1 BODY would get through. The head's BODYx would double that to 2 BODY. The total of 11 PD would mean (20 - 11) 9 STUN gets through. Anyway, my point was, Combat Luck or any other rDEF only stops however much kBODY it stops. You double after rDEF, not before. Edited to add: Vulnerability multiplies before defenses in all cases. Which could lead to weirdness if you're using both Vulnerability and Hit Locations; assuming the target in the above had both 2x STUN and 2x BODY Vulnerability to whatever, the 4 BODY would double to 8; defenses would subtract 3, leaving 5; the 2x BODYx for the head would double that to 10. The total STUNx would be 10, so that 4 BODY killing blow would cause 40 STUN before defenses. Actually I'm wrong. If you're using both, then both Vulnerability and Hit Locations apply before defenses. (6e1 p. 432)

If you're using Hit Locations, it's kind of weird. You multiply the STUNx for the Hit Location before defenses are applied, but you multiply the BODYx for the Hit Location after. So 3 DEF would still subtract 3 BODY from a head or 13 shot; you'd just multiply whatever made it through by the BODYx.

Buying up their stats, including DEX, EGO, PD, ED, Body, Stun, END. Increasing their Skill values. Increasing their other stats (STR, INT, PRE, etc.). Maybe adding additional Talents, Powers that reflect their advancement, etc. Maybe someone wants a new magic item? They can spend their points on that. Maybe someone wants a stronghold (a Base). Incidentally, what point level are you starting them at, and how much XP do you award? How long has the campaign been going?

For that matter, we could start OCV (and OMCV) at 11 (or, 11 + whatever the base value is), treating that as our default attack roll. "Reduce your OCV by your opponent's DCV, then roll that number or less on 3d6" reduces the math involved. Edit to add: Action! System (a "grandchild" of Hero via Fuzion) gives characters a Defensive Target Number stat, which (in a roll high system) is equal to 10 + their DEX. Attackers have to roll that value or higher on 3d6, adding their offensive bonus (whatever stat provides that).

Under ordinary circumstances, there's no mathematical difference. Except that we have conditions, maneuvers, Powers, and so on, that put a target at reduced (half or zero) OCV or DCV. The point of starting the CV's at 3 was for sure to keep them in line with historical values, partly for ease in converting, partly because most of us have some kind of a feel for an OCV of 3 or a DCV of 7, and partly because starting them at 0 would have messed with the game mechanics that reduce them. Incidentally, I've long thought that CV's ought to have remained tied to their original parent stats; they weren't Figured Characteristics as much as they were equivalent to Characteristic Rolls. Decoupling those has never really sat right with me. This I agree with, 100%.

I would say that if a character doesn't have any offensive Mental Powers, then they don't have any OMCV to sell back. (Any character who attempts to scrabble around for a 1 real-point offensive Mental Power that they're never going to use, just so they can score back a net 5 points on sold-back OMCV, needs to go a couple of rounds with the Character Approver 9000.)

A Block also has to be declared before the attack roll. How about this: the GM has to decide whether the Combat Luck kicks in before the attack is rolled. Players get the benefit of the doubt, NPCs don't. The GM has to cue the player in before the dice roll. Something like, "As you swing your sword, you can see him twist just slightly. Go ahead and roll."

I hate to keep harping on this, but I think we're looking at the edition divide between 3rd and 4th. We didn't have expected DCs, rDEF, and AP values; we didn't build to any, we didn't lose characters left and right without them, and we didn't need alternate sources of rDEF to make up for it. And we weren't facing opposition built to them, either, that I know of. I guess those games wouldn't have been that much different with Combat Luck instead of armor, but my point is, we didn't have Combat Luck, or Powers. We had our Characteristics and weapons, and occasionally magic items or spells, but we weren't building well rounded combatants. We made sure we had plenty of DCV, through DEX, Skill Levels, or Dodging -- I remember aborting to Dodge a lot. We were probably facing 1-2d6 Killing, maybe as much as 2 1/2d6 single shots, while the others may have been Autofire or something like a 2x1d6 multiple attack. I don't know what else to tell you. The games, and the system, were different. They were done differently. We played and ran differently. We weren't looking at a DC 8, 40 AP, 20 DEF game and building all of our characters to DC 8, 20 DEF, and 40 AP. We didn't even do that in Champions, and somehow we survived.

For those who are losing a lot of characters, what are your typical Active Point and DCs? And are your PCs all building to them consistently? Are your opposition all built to them as well?

I couldn't quite tell... Yeah, I'm with both you and the Doc. I remember one PC of mine dying to a heroic sacrifice, another PC of mine dying to a failed Pilot roll (failing to eject from his 'mech in a Battletech Hero game), someone else's PC dying because I flat out murdered him (not one of my better moments, I assure you, but it was a long time ago), and I'm sure the other players in our group had one or two PCs they lost as well. Those aside, our campaigns tended not to runneth over with rivers of player character blood. If you're in a game where you can justify armor, wear some! Even 3 DEF can help you survive long enough to get healed up. I don't recall many of my characters having more than 3 DEF armor. GMs: if your players feel like they need resistant defenses in order to survive, stop hitting them with Killing Attacks! Easier in superhero games, true, as most other games have characters facing swords, claws, teeth, bullets, and other methods of destruction, but those latter games also tend to be the ones that are easier to justify armor.

The following Google search string: GURPS cosmic site:sjgames.com shows 6,220 results. So, beware. I think that might be all of our Great Debates rolled into one. I'm at work right now and don't have any GURPS books with me, but I do have the GURPS 4e Basic Set at home and could look it up there. It looks like there's at least one thread at the SJ Games forums ([PU4, Powers] What does Cosmic power modifier actually do?) with some basic info on how it works. The HERO System generally goes for "every attack must have a defense" as a general rule, which is seen in pretty much every one of its "exception" abilities (Desolidification, Transform, NND). I know @Christopher R Taylor has used an "Always Hits" Advantage, which I think he costed out in relation to AVLD/AVAD/NND. +1, I think? As with most similar constructs, I think his version required some way to defend against it, and it also made the attack Stun Only, requiring an additional +1 to make it do Body. For stuff that already exists in Hero, look at: The "Absolute Effect" Rule (6e1 p. 133) Desolidification/Affects Desolids/Affects Solid World Extradimensional Movement Teleport/Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation/Armor Piercing Transform Attack Vs. Alternate Defense (including NND and AVLD) Armor Piercing/Penetrating/Hardened/Impenetrable Inherent Constant/Controlled/Uncontrolled Linked/Conditional/Limited Power Real Armor/Real Weapon Variable Power Pool These have all generated probably more discussion and questions than everything else combined, throughout the history of the HERO System. But these are the main things used for "tiered" power types, absolute effects, exceptions-to-exceptions, and so on.

I'd have to check on the wording of the Cosmic advantage in GURPS, but I think it gets used in a variety of ways. Essentially it's shorthand for "this power can break the rules in some way". AVLD/AVAD/NND let you specify defenses, but barring homebrew or GM permission, there isn't really anything in Hero that covers other uses.

It seems to me that a package deal is basically a framework for Skills, that is, a group of related items that got a cost break for being part of a concept.

Plot Armor. Bulletproof Nudity, if it doesn't stack with any armor.

Package bonuses existed in Espionage and Justice Inc. but neither one explained how they were generated. It's possible that was done in an Adventurers Club, but of the core books, the first one I can find it in is Fantasy Hero. I'm pretty sure it was in all of the non-super core books that came after.

They are in 4e, with a different formula, but not 5e. I honestly don't know what the rationale was, except for taking away a source of free points.

Found it. I had to search a bit for it myself. Hopefully @Sean Waters will indulge us this much. I did sort of help derail his thread...