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Re: DC's turn toward the dark Interesting, criteria. One, I've noticed that is shared by many people on these boards. What I'm wondering (and this goes out to everybody) do you put the same criteria on all hero's regardless of genre or just superheroes. Did you feel that Luke Skywalker, King Arthur, or Indiana Jones were less entertaing because they were killers. Obviously, you can rationalize that they needed to kill because the stories took place during wartime settings. But I doubt you (or me for that matter) would enjoy a story where Batman or Superman murders a bunch of Nazi's (remember they were both around back then). I'm wondering if our criteria for comics especially in terms of morality is slightly colored. Do we feel this way because thats how comics were when we grew up? Or is it the changing of established characters which we don't agree with? I personally think its a combination of both but maybe thats me.

Re: DC's turn toward the dark Ahh, I thought 'we' was referring to the general buying public. As for Sk8maven's argument I don't agree with her premise. Not that I'm expecting you to defend it. That would be unfair to you. Especially, considering its more of a rant than an argument. Which is obviously why this current thread was started. What I'm trying to get at is that her definition of entertaing or well done is still a judgement call. Some like the new DC, crossovers, angst and some don't. Trying to quantify it as bad or good is futile. Obviously, we can all agree that DC's stories have gotten darker as of late. Beyond that it becomes a question of taste. Realizing now, that this thread is more of a commiseration I kinda wish I hadn't posted. I feel that my posts kind of derail the momentum. For that I apologize. Lastly, (and not to rub anyones noses in it) my 'real life' is awesome and I wish more characters could have it:) Maybe thats why I don't read comics for escapism.

Re: DC's turn toward the dark Interesting quote. The only part I have a problem with is who 'WE' is. Because I'm not sure that 'we' all want that. Sure it would be nice and its definitely something the writer/editor should shoot for. However, I think their main priority is to entertain. Which DC comics still does (although I don't collect them). I think the biggest problem that discussion like these have are that as fans we are not objective. We have a problem separating quality from taste. Their stories are still well done. They're well executed, well drawn, and seen on their own make sense. The problem rises when they don't conform to our tastes. We see the characters in a certain light. The new version don't jive with that version so they will always seem incorrect. Unfortunately, that doesn't make it so. Their current version is always the correct version regardless of our opinion. Although, its still fun to complain about it

Re: DC's turn toward the dark Yeah, but thats not exactly the same thing. Cosmetic changes to a character isn't the same as thing as a continuing trend. One, is a deliberate decision usually by one person or a very limited group (Spiderman's costume change). The other is a natural progression seen throughout the industry (moral ambivalent decisions brought about by complex issues). Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't say there wouldn't be a trend to return to lighter stories I'm just saying that I'm not quite sure that your example is valid. Although, I really don't know if it will. They had a revitialization after the 90's grim and gritty period and that didn't last long. Additionally, (and this is way off topic) I wonder how much the comic code authority did to keep our icons so pure. They were published with that damn code for close to forty years. I wonder how much that has done to color our views or these characters. I mean no one thinks of Batman as a gun toting vigilante anymore. Maybe these characters aren't really darkening as much as going back to their roots.

Re: DC's turn toward the dark Honestly, I feel bad for DC. Since, the seventies the comic audience has continually gotten older looking for more mature themes. Unfortunately, very few popular DC properties are able to handle the more morally ambivalent storylines . DC's icons have always been more 'pure'. Probably due to the fact that they were originally marketed to kids. Although, certian DC characters can thrive in that particular environment (ie Green Arrow, Batman and Nightwing). It seems unnatural when you read Infinity Crisis. Although, well done it just doesn't ring true. Of course, in another decade a new audience will have emerged and view the same characters in the new light and it will be just as valid.

Re: Moon Knight........ Actually, Moon Knight was originally a knock off of Batman and the Shadow. The whole multiple identity thing comes directly from the latter. As for the new series, I'm definitely looking forward to it too. I hope they keep it close to the original series by Doug Moench where his abilities and even history stay somewhat ambigious. I always felt that gave the character something that was unique to him. Plus, he has one of the best costumes.

Re: Evolution of the races? That was a cool link. I didn't realize that they had isolated neanderthal DNA. It's a little scary to think that if it was ever decided we could actually clone a neanderthal now.

Re: Evolution of the races? Personally, I would have elves, dwarves and humans all part of the same species. Its not like they're that different (well if you're going with the DnD versions). Honestly, I see more variations between the different cultures of humans than I do between elves and humans. You could easily explain their different physiologies due to geological isolation or evolving towards a specific enviroment (especially dwarves). Just include plate techtonics or an ice age in the developmental history of your world. The only one I can see being a problem is orcs. I would definitely consider them a different species. However, I wouldn't use neanderthals as their descendants mainly because its still being debated if neanderthals were a different species than homo sapien or just a sub species. Lastly, are you still going to give elves and dwarves a long life? I don't know if you could explain that one scientifically. You might just have to use a suspension of belief.

Re: Good Fantasy Movies Not to be an idiot but what is the definition of "fantasy"? The only reason I'm asking is because some of the movies suggested I would never consider part of that genre. And I still can't believe nobody mentioned Gymkata:) Okay, it's not that hard to believe. Other movies: The Sword in the Stone Blood of Heroes Sword and the Sorcerer (Lee Horsley's finest movie)

Re: Why would Dwarves Trade with Humans Depending on your campaign, maybe the Dwarves trade with humans for "escorts". Admittedly, a small niche market but have you seen dwarven women:)

Re: How to: Daredevil Here's a short list of the disadvantage that DD's blindness causes: Can't operate a vehicle. Can't view photographs, paintings, and some types of printing. Can't view digital screens which include: - Computers - TVs - ATMs - Kiosks - Some digital phones - He would even have a tough time checking out at store with a credit card Has limited range with his other senses. I believe he has a tough time with anything beyond 100 yards (especially when it comes to targeting).

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions That I agree with. Hell, the clone saga, teen stark and the crossing are great examples of this. However, from everything I've read the decision by Bendis (and Millar, Quesada) was not a business one. It was according to them a creative decision that they felt would be really cool. If you believe it or not is up to you. And how is Spiderman any less of a team player than Hulk, Dr. Strange or Silver Surfer. If those guys can function in a team then I don't really see a problem.

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions Personally, I'm excited about the upcoming storyline. After collecting the Avengers for about 2 decades it's time for a change. I have faith in Bendis. He's never dissapointed me although, I do find some of his other work more intriguing. Plus, I like when fans who can't handle any sort of real change start whining. Its a comic for god's sake. We should be so lucky that we get to be entertained every month. As fans we often forgot that we are owed nothing by the creators. Come on, is it really that hard to accept that Spiderman and Wolverine will be on the Avengers. Its still the Avengers. Its still Cap and Ironman leading the team.

Re: Need Espionage Plot Hooks! Ahh, the good old DOA plotline. If you want a few good espionage plot hook I would just read the news. There is so much going on now in current affairs that you could pick something up.

Re: Super looking for some powers Wow, do you remember the old Thing cartoon? The kid in it use to do something with his ring and summon orange rocks to turn into the Thing. Your description totally reminded me of it. Anyway, the last thing I got from the picture was a brick. Her lithe form and small cracked texture made me think of scales. I get a more snake, fish, lizard "vibe". I would've gone with some kinda chamelon effect with clinging, leaping, and regeneration. Then I would've added something exotic like phermones (mind control), molting (very limited duplication), or poison (drain). Admittedly, nothing too exciting.

Re: Need help on powers Thanks for the replies. The other thing I should have mentioned is that I'm working out of Hero's Sidekicks. I'm guessing that is why I have no idea what 'Usable as an attack' is. That probably would have made my life easier. Also, it only mentions Aid as a effecting Characteristics and Powers. Regardless, I got the answers I needed and wanted to thank you both.

I've relatively new to Hero's and I'm having a bit of trouble writing up some powers. I'm hoping some of you veterans can help me out. First off, I'm making an NPC with the ability to cause solid objects to desolidify (similiar to Kitty Pryde). I assume this falls underneath Transform but I wasn't sure. I figure you could also create the ability buying Desolidification with a Range advantage. Probably adding in an activation limitation too. Secondly, I want another character to be able to increase the DEF of non organic objects. I wasn't sure if this fell under Transform or if you could use Aid instead. I would prefer using Aid because it mimics the effect in my head better. But it says it only works on Characteristics but I figure this could be easily changed. So what are your thoughts?

Re: What are these Ages exactly? I hope you don't mind that I edited your post. I did it for brevity. Plus, I didn't get into the whole 'why kids don't buy comics'. Its really neither here nor there. I'm glad that you mentioned 'Stealing Thunder'. Although, you feel that Captain Marvel didn't belong in the story (which may be true) the fact of the matter is that the story worked. They kept the character's core while placing him in a more mature venue. Admittedly, not as grim and gritty as Daredevil and Batman it still contained dire consequences of super powers. You can still keep key concepts of what the Marvel family represents but change their world. Have innocent children deal with an amibigous world. Have the sense of wonder interlaced with a bit more fear. Does it lose something? Probably but you can still get good stories out of it and keep the character the same. Another example would be Kingdom Come. They definitely showed the Big Chees in a new light. However, the Marvel family is also one of the most difficult to put in an Iron Age scenario because they are kids. Most characters will have an easier time because they're adults. Especially, Superman and Captain America who started out with quite a few pulp references. If you look at their early adventures its almost like two different characters existed. As for whether they should do it is another discussion. Personally, I agree that most characters should be retired and that writers/artist should create new characters to reflect they're ideas. Unfortunately, the publishing companies won't let them because they make too much money off their 'intellectual property'.

Re: What are these Ages exactly? Are you always this long winded Mutant for Hire;) By the way nice post.

Re: What are these Ages exactly? double post, sorry:)

Re: What are these Ages exactly? I'm not sure I totally agree with your assessment JeffreyWKramer (may I call you Jeff?). I agree that alot of characters shouldn't be put into a 'grim and gritty' scenario. However, I think that there is more to Iron Age concepts than 'grim and gritty'. The real problem might lay in the inability of writers (and obviously publishing companies) to ascertain what makes up an Iron Age story (or Steel). They can't separate the wheat from the chaff (as my Dad would put it). Honestly, there seems to be little difference between the Bronze age and now besides surface and execution. I think that the majority of characters could be done in a more mature format with out losing their core. Of course if characters were ever retired this would never be a problem but that is an entirely new thread.

Re: What are these Ages exactly?

Re: Iron Age Philosophies

Re: Iron Age Philosophies Damn, you beat me to it:(