DreadDomain

Might redundant but Snow Storm, Thunder Storm, Sand Storm, Sh!t Storm come to mind.

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Last video on this subject;nothing about the book; just proof that the goal they claimed--creating a new book from high quality scans-- is _not_ hard   tedious?  No doubt!  But not hard. 

 

Still the difference in the end results is determined _completely_ by how you start.   This last video proves that by taking a few really good starts, and finishing them with the crappiest materials available (pretty much the opposite of the POD approach: instead of trying to shine a turd, I ran a few diamonds through the mud, just to see (and show you guys) what would happen. 

 

 

These are pretty nice scans and I like the colorized pictures!

12 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Don't get super excited yet. 

 

I think the POD company may have the wrong PDF:

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the heads-up. I was considering buying the POD but I will give it a pass for now.

4 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Firstly, if I'm allowing a character to have "invulnerability" I'm not going to "well actually no" them.  I'm going to let them be actually invulnerable.  Because I told them "This construct is invulnerability" and I'm not going to lie to a player about mechanics. 

Secondly because I might allow invulnerability Only/Not Against THING.  Likewise I might allow LARGE NUMBER ATTACK Only Against THING.  And I'd expect both of these to work.  If Captain Invulnerable-To-Fire can be hurt by Ghost Burning Flame, something is horribly wrong. 

I'd say pretty much this. The contract that bounds players and gm around invulnerability should hold regarless if it is built with Desolid, Resistant Protection, Damage Negation or something else.

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If a character wanted to actually be invulnerable all the time I would require him to purchase the affects solid on all his attacks.  No advantage or limitation would be allowed to change that.   

While I have no issues with using Desolid as the base for invulnerability, that part bothers me. It becomes a (slightly more) cumbersome built and these days, I prefer simpler constructs.

22 minutes ago, Sketchpad said:

I might also suggest a 0 END advantage on STR for characters that would use this. 

Oh the possibilities...

On 4/24/2020 at 10:49 PM, Sketchpad said:

Hello Herophiles! 

I'm working on converting some characters over to Hero and got snagged on an idea that I thought best to consult the Hive Mind of Heroism. 

 

In the original system, there's an ability called "Takedown" which states:

 

 

I'm looking to emulate something similar in Hero terms. So I was thinking of something like:

 

 

The amount of damage could be increased, of course, and the radius may be increased, but should stay within the character's normal movement ability. 

 

Anything I should add? Take away? Rebuild? 

Have you considered just using Multiple-Attacks? Multiple-Attacks:

• take a full phase. You can reduce that to half a phase if you buy Rapid Attack at 5 points (or 10 points for both melee and ranged attack)
• impose a -2 OCV penalty per extra target. Based on Offensive Penalty Skill Level you could buy this off at 2 points per +1 OCV
• puts you at ½ DCV but you can also improve that by buying Defensive Penalty Skill Level at 2 points per +1
• The multiple attacks sequence stop if you miss your roll. What you suggest is even more constraining so it could be worth an extra limitation

So for no points at all, you could use Multiple Attacks, or if you want to be better at it, yoy could pay to improve your abilities.

Say this is only for melee attacks. 

Clear the Room (½ phase HTH multiple attacks sequence , +6 vs OCV and DCV penalties); Rapid Attack-HTH (5AP), OPSL +6 (12AP), DPSL +6 (12AP) Total 29 points

Using any of your HTH attack, you can attack 3 agents at no penalty as long as you don't miss and at extra -2 OCV per target if you try to go for more target. If you insist on having the sequence stopped if you do not incapacitate a target, I would call that an extra -½ limitation for a final cost of 19 points.

The drawback is that it would cost you more END to complete than your proposed build unless your attack(s) are not too onerous on END.

7 hours ago, massey said:

Story-wise, he's not using an action (even though in game rules, that's exactly what is happening).  Story-wise, it's just the other guy's turn to go, and the attack harmlessly bounces off of Captain Invulnerable.  Now when he gets attacked by the ghost blaster power, the player may choose to switch away from Desolidification to some other power, but the character is just standing there.

 

Yup, totally understood your intention for how it worked in play (you explained well in the previous post) and I was only talking about the edge case where he guessed wrong. 

7 hours ago, massey said:

Occasionally you'll get a situation where he guesses wrong, and an attack that doesn't seem that it should be particularly damaging will do a significant chunk of Stun to him.  That happens in comics too.  Sometimes you just get a weird interaction of powers.  And you can either come up with some BS explantion ("the ghost blaster is interacting with the strange energies I encountered earlier!  It's harming me even through my invulnerability!"), or you can have him pretend it doesn't hurt.  Instead of saying "yeeaargghh!" when he takes 25 Stun, he just laughs it off.  He's got 60 Stun, after all.

As long as the gm and characters are cool with this (and will also use it as a story element like you have done!), it's totally cool.

For Speed, have you thought about buying +2 with a limitation on ii instead of talking a Physical Limitation? You could even unify it with your MP so when his Invulnerability is drained/weaken, he even lose these extra defensive move. Anyway, I like the write-up. Simple, effective and supports the in-game feel of the character.

On 4/26/2020 at 5:24 PM, Doc Democracy said:

DreadDomain has a real point but I do think there is value in a lot of the tricksy builds.  I think THAT is simply another manifestation of the HERO System not being a game to play but an engine to build a game to play.

I do not disagree at all. One of the strength of the system is to use powers, distill them down to it's basic effect and build something different with it. As long as the mechanics support the in game feel and intent, why not?

I am simply saying that since 5E, complex, clever builds have taken too much of a center stage and became almost the default approach. Invulnerability-as-Desolid is an example of that. Take Desolid, apply modifications to strip it out of its primary effect (being desolid) and then buy a side construct with naked modifiers to enable you to attack while Desolid (because you're not) and make sure you point enough point into it to cover your offensive powers (if you level up your offensive powers later, don't forget to put more points into this).... or buy enough levels of Damage Negation. If it's only to build straight Invulnerability, I know which build I prefer.

7 hours ago, massey said:

Captain Invulnerable

And this is a good example where I believe the mechanics are supporting the game play intent and effects. Captain Invulnerable would have a fairly different feel in play then a classic flying brick and it is enabled by the way he is built. The only caveat that I would have is the agreed special effect behind an "affect desolid" attack. Why would a gun designed to blast off ghosts would affect Captain Invulnerable? It's probably easily managed with a good understanding between to GM ad player. 

On 4/25/2020 at 7:51 PM, Vanguard said:

 

Late to the game but:

 

APG 1 pg 87 - Damage Reduction 100%.

 

Note: APG rules are subject to GM allowance as they aren't "normal" rules but they do have some really neat ideas in there.  Also, just like in the main books it has a Stop Sign.

On 4/26/2020 at 7:49 AM, massey said:

Easiest way to do "Invulnerable" is to just buy up his Defense, Con, Recovery, Body, and Stun to a level higher than would normally be allowed.  In a 12D6 game, a guy with 35 PD and ED and a 30 Con might as well be invulnerable.  It doesn't matter if you get through 7 Stun on an average hit, if the guy has 70 Stun and a 20 Recovery.  Just describe part of his power as the ability to "no sell" attacks and that's good enough.

 

A guy who focuses heavily on defensive powers can be close enough to invulnerable for government work. 

Exactly this. Over the years, I believed HERO tried too hard to come up with clever builds and use other powers to mimic the effect of other powers. HERO, is not a true effect based power system (EABA would be much closer to an effect based system) and powers generally come with a degree of implied special effect. Desolid is a good example of this. The base effect of Desolid is not "resist damage", it's "be intangible". By trying to use it to resist damage one has to build the power in a way that eliminates the primary effect. It is absolutely doable, it's just a build that I don't like (only my opinion and preference).

HERO has already various ways to resist damage. Damage Reduction, Resistant Protection and Damage Negation are really the powers to simulate the desired primary effect of "resist damage". APG offers a way to do it with (at 240 cost for both Physical and Energy). The other way to look at it is to build invulnerability with Resistant Protection or Damage Negation to a level that is "over limit" for a specific campaign and call it invulnerability. In a 12d6 limit campaign, it could mean buying enough to resist 18d6 (to cover Haymaker and/or pushing). It's 180 points of Damage Negation or 189 point of Resistant Protection. GM and players couls settle on Invulnerability, cost 180, 150 or even 120 to suit their tastes and needs.

7 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

I would back that. Heck, for that matter it be nice to have stretch goals to colorize the book, make a HD Update for it, and to include a remastered GM Screen. 

Yes, this. A full colour, remastered Champions 4E would be glorious.

On 4/22/2020 at 11:48 AM, zslane said:

No. It is only 244 pages. Like I said, the 4e softcover Champions sourcebook had the same cover as the BBB.

So there was a Champions 4e softcover rule book and a Champions 4e softcover genre book? [Mind blown]😵

3 hours ago, Jason S.Walters said:

The Hero System Book of Templates is now available POD in black-and-white softcover on RPGNow.

 

Hi Jason, 

I made the comment somewhere else but why name this supplement The HERO System Book of Templates? I believe it makes a disservice to your product and does not convey the flavor, nor the utility value it's due. I believe Champions Heroes: Volume 1 (assuming there could be more) would have been better at illustrating the goal of the suplement.

In any case, I believe it is very useful and good value.

16 hours ago, zslane said:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hero-Hero-Champions-4th-Ed-Champions-4th-Edition-SC-Fair/362963141875?epid=1604651865&hash=item54824a04f3:g:6u4AAOSwondeiTUA

Isn't that book just the SC version of the BBB?

9 hours ago, zslane said:

Yep. Softcover with the same art as the BBB. It is quite rare.

Cool! I was curious and couldn't find it on the list of HERO's product (didn't look to deeply, only wikipedia). Must be a collector item now!

13 hours ago, zslane said:

 

I feel that Champions Complete is more like the first three editions of Champions than it is like the 4e BBB. The latter had more comprehensive coverage of the superhero genre in its S and C sections.

I agree. Champions Complete could have benefitted from 3 things.

Sections S and C from the Champions 4E.

The Superhero Gallery from Champions 6E.

The production value of Champios 6E.

13 hours ago, zslane said:

In fact, the S and C sections were later printed as the Champions genre book. 

It was??

fdw3773, I really enjoyed your sheets. Good work!

If anyone is interested, I have also uploaded character sheets for a few characters. I have updated the previous file (if you have already downloaded it, you might want to do it again) and this time I have added the Hero Designer files for your convenience (it was silly of me to have omitted them the first time around) 

DC and Marvel Sample Heroes

Justice League 

• Aquaman (700pts)
• Batman (800pts)
• Cyborg (600pts) New
• Flash (700pts)
• Green Lantern (700pts)
• Superman (800pts)
• Wonder Woman (700pts)

Titans

• Beast Boy (400pts)
• Donna Troy (400pts) New
• Nightwing (400pts)
• Omen (400pts) New
• Raven (400pts)
• Starfire (400 pts)
• Tempest (400pts) New

Marvel

• Colossus (400pts)
• Daredevil (400pts)
• Spider-Man (400pts)

All the Hero Designer files are included (except Colossus which you ca find in the HERO System Book of Templates) New

For your info, I have uploaded the Dc and Marvel Sample Heroes file in the download section. I have added Cyborg to the Justice League and Donna Troy, Omen and Tempest to the Titans. I have also added the Hero Designer files (except for Colossus which comes from the HERO System Book of Templates).

On 4/17/2020 at 9:37 AM, Sketchpad said:

 

 

This is my biggest problem with Hero books. As a designer, I want a book that looks polished, not a text book from 1983. I should also note that @DreadDomain has an awesome layout for character stats. If I were to make books for Hero, I would be looking to borrow elements from it.

For your info, I have uploaded the DC and Marvel Sample Heroes file in the download section. I have added Cyborg to the Justice League and Donna Troy, Omen and Tempest to the Titans. I have also added the Hero Designer files (except for Colossus which comes from the HERO System Book of Templates).

2 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

I should also note that @DreadDomain has an awesome layout for character stats. If I were to make books for Hero, I would be looking to borrow elements from it.

Thanks Sketchpad, it's very kind of you. It's available in the download section (DC and Marvel Sample Heroes 1.0.0) if anyone is interested. I'll try to put a few more characters in the pack this week-end.

I created this character sheet because I generally find the official sheets unappealing. 

3 hours ago, Spence said:

Not quite.  A good step forward, but no really a full transition. 6th Ed Fantasy Hero was IMO the best spiffed up Hero books.  But it, and the other 6th Ed books, were more 1970's textbooks upgraded to a better paper and a few color pics inserted.  M&M books are fully realized and originally designed as full color books, from paper to borders (including colored chapter tagging) to text to art.

 

When I flip through my M&M books it is cooler throughout.  When I flip through a Hero 6th book, it is a sea of black and white text with the island of color.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still think it the books like Fantasy Hero 6th (and 5th) are some of the best RPG supplements for for content out there.  But there has not been an official Hero product to date ( that I have seen) that escapes the text book vibe.

I agree with all of the above. It was getting close but there still something missing and I believe the text book vibe is what I could not put my finger on. My favorites were 6E1, 6E2, Champions and Fantasy HERO. Champions Villains were great but they could have done with a better character sheet layout and some of the art did not quite have the right vibe. Ahhh that era did not last long...

3 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

It is exactly here that you diverge from Duke.  If you have the multipower switched to STR but are not using the STR that, in Duke's game (and probably mine sometimes), the SFX of that STR being "in play" is that the character has the size, shape and feel of an elephant.

This is down to game style. I don't see any problem with this approach (nor does the rulebook). Now does that give any mechanical benefit/drawback beyond STR. Easier to hit (DCV)? Harder to lift or difficulty to fit into tight space (size)? All of that can be a wash and not really be worth any point in the mind of everyone and it's all fine.

3 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

The key question for me would be how often the player sought to use the elephantness (would not believe how long it took me to persuade autocorrect that was the word I wanted) and what other thing might people notice that told them this was not a 'real' elephant.

That's the crux of it. The rules are as flexible as they can be but they also provide a framework when side benefits become too important.

4 hours ago, Spence said:

 

Well said.   

One thing I would like to see is Champions products with M&M production value....

I would submit that at the start of the 6E era, this is what we are getting.

14 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

So, a player comes to you with a character called Animal Man.

 

I want him to be able to turn into an eagle and fly, to turn into an elephant and be strong, to turn into a tiger and claw people.

 

Do you require shape-shift?  Multiform? Or Flight, STR and Killing attack in a three slot multipower that locks each other out? 

 

(though the idea of being able to mix and match two from three and get a griffon or roc or wyvern is attractive...)

That's a trick question right? Everyone knows there are no single, definitive answers on how to build a power in HERO  

More seriously, my knee-jerk reaction is that it is not Shapeshift (or at least not only Shapeshift). Shapeshift clearly stated (emphasis mine) "A character with Shape Shift can change his form as perceived by one or more Sense Groups without altering his powers or other abilities." But what else? When they change into a elephant or an eagle, are they changing size, weight, etc. Does DCV change because of size, do they become easier or more difficult to hit? When the power is not in used (flight, STR, HKA) can they still change (look, smell, feel like) an eagle, an elephant or a tiger? Can it prevent others to recognize them?

If the answer is no to all of these questions, it could be a three slot multipower that locks each other out. If some answers are yes, then it needs a multiform or it needs these individual powers to be only accessible when others are also used (like Shapeshift and Growth).

Did that support, that Shapeshift is somewhat more problematic that other powers? I believe not. A similar example could be given where the question is "so, is this a Blast, a RKA or a Drain?" 

30 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

It is an issue if a GM requires a player to purchase Shape-shift when the shifting is really just SFX.  It is another place where there is a need for conversations.  If the player is going to want to exploit this extensively in game then it is probably appropriate to insist on the shape-shift power or some other method that costs points.  If it is all about how things look and might only rarely be exploited - like using your light blast to light up a room in an emergency - then it can be zero cost as part of the main power (or powers) that do have points bought for.

 

It adds some uncertainty to the application of the rules.  That is always something to be alert to.

Ok, I get it but I am not sure Shapeshift is anymore problematic than any other powers. Not trying to argue, I understand your point but don't think SS is a special case.

13 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

He remains correct that, there are vanishingly few cases where shifting shape is the primary reason for changing shape - it is usually to accomplish something else.  Shape-shift is for the character who has doubled down on this as a schtick.  It can be done, in more limited ways, by other mechanics but this is the premium service.

 

Doc

 

But is it an issue? Shapeshifting enables to change shape... well big deal if you are alone in your bedroom. You shapeshift for a reason and that reason usually involve others. Often it involves deception.

it's like Flight. The primary reason is not really to fly. It's to go somewhere... or at the very least to prevent you from going down.