DreadDomain

9 hours ago, assault said:

A lot of the inspiration for Champions Now came from essays in Champions II, Champions III and Strike Force rather than the core books.

 

6e has some comparable essays, but they don't tend to say the same things as the 3e ones.

 

The mechanical divergence means that the Champions Now drafts only resemble 3e more than 6e in terms of their length and specific focus on superheroes.

 

It's a different game.

 

Unfortunately, so was Fuzion.

And unfortunately not all backers have access to the beta so we are left in the dark.

Straight off the bat, I believe 6E is the best edition of HERO mechanically. I would not say it is the best it could be, but it is better than the previous editions. Most of the problems I have with 6E are not mechanical but rather with presentation.

Presentation

Again, I will declare it from the start, I love the two big-blue 6E books. I find them beautiful and neat and as reference manuals, they are golden. When it comes to look at general rules though, Champions Complete or HERO Basic are much more convenient.  Behold hindsight 20/20, with better production value (and completeness for Basic) they could have been the equivalent of HERO Rulebook and Champions BBB for 4E. I would have seen them both on glossy paper, full color and using the layout template 6E1 and 6E2 use while the two big books could have been softcover and black and white (what they now are in POD I suppose).   

But my main presentation problems in 6E are on the character sheets. The wall of characteristics is horrible and with just a better layout could be easily avoided. Categorizing them like it was previously suggested in this thread would go a long way to make them look less intimidating. At the very least, grouping them slightly differently (example below but somewhat messed up) would definitely help.

STR           40       17-         STR Dice 9d6, Lift 6.4tons

DEX          36      16-

CON          19       13-

INT            18       13-         Perception Roll 13-

EGO          15       12-

PRE           13       12-         PRE Attack 2½d6

OCV           10             OMCV      3

DCV           12              DMCV      3

SPD              5              Phases     3, 5, 8, 10, 12

PD              12              Total         12 PD/0 rPD

ED               9               Total         9 ED/0 rED

REC           10               END         40

STUN         40               BODY       12     

Running 12m (24m)         Swimming 4m (8m)

Leaping 30m (60m)         Swinging 40m (80m)

Another issue brought up previously is how some powers were deconstructed and need now to be built from other powers. While I have no problem with the approach, I would have preferred if they would have defined and used a simplified nomenclature on published character sheets (basically what they did with Talents). A few basic write-ups would have benefited from it (Force Field, Instant Change, Transfer, Super-Running (you know, the one not built with Running but with Flight or Teleport), etc…). In short, I would have liked if they looked for a way to declutter the character sheets and make them look more appealing, more fun (and yes, I would be totally happy not seeing Real Cost per line item and the advantages and limitations +/- values).

Legacy

Another aspect that clearly irks long time HERO fans is the loss of some legacy components. The two examples constantly referred to are Comeliness and Figured Characteristics. In both cases, I was initially against their departure but after the fact, my opinion is that the game is better without them.

Comeliness was not doing much mechanically and every attempt I have seen to give it a purpose were heroic efforts for sure but ultimately unconvincing. I much, much prefer Striking Appearance as a mechanic. That being said, I agree that adding Comeliness in a sidebar as a potential new Characteristic would have been a must. It is clearly important to some of us and we should respect that.

Figured Characteristics were a tougher nut to crack. The challenge is to balance a linear point cost progression per characteristics with what is fundamentally a breakpoint progression of abilities. Some benefits of characteristics increase every +1 but others only in +2, +3 or +5 increments. GURPS can balance its Attributes with its Secondary Characteristics by the simple fact that most benefits progress on a +1 for +1 basis. ST is equally divided in three components, Lifting, Striking and Hit Points, +1 in ST means +1 in all three components and the sum cost of the three components equals the total cost for ST. Trying to balance that in HERO was next to impossible and at best could have been better approximated than in previous editions (this is what I was hoping for while 6E was being developed). In the end, figured characteristics were not figured anymore and it suddenly became much easier to build any concept desired without worrying with point efficiency.

But something was lost. Call it guidance or verisimilitude but the fact remains that a deeply entrenched paradigm, the relation between Characteristics and Figured was erased. Again, a few solutions were possible. First, a sidebar re-introducing Figured Characteristics with better balanced costs could have been added. Second, and even easier, a sidebar could have introduced “suggested values” for Secondary Characteristics based on Characteristics (example below).

From a cost perspective, nothing would change. You would still buy STR at 1 pts for +1 and no Secondary Characteristics would be automatically recalculated. If you wanted to bring your Secondary Characteristics in line with the suggested values, you would still need to buy them up. Suggested Values would simply give an indication of how the Characteristics could influence the Secondary Characteristics and the player would still have full power to buy them up their desired values based on their concept, may it be the suggested value or something else. Unless of course a campaign strictly enforces them.

I haven’t touched on mechanics at all in this post. Hopefully will have time to do so later.

2 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

 

I agree that the 5e Damage Shield is borked. I seem to recall discussing it on these boards back in that timeframe. It is not efficient or practical. I think it would have been more correct to have the Damage Shield advantage itself include the desired functionality and just bump up its modifier a bit, or to define a variant option for Continuous itself that modified Continuous to express the "Damage Shield" behavior. 

 

I prefer a self-resetting trigger based build for a "damage shield" type of effect, personally.

Massey gives the example that Damage shield worsen from 4th (Damage Shield +1/2) to 5E (Damage Shield +1/2, Continuous +1) and I agree. However, because we are talking 6E, Damage Shield actually improved and became Damage Shield +1/4, Constant +1/2, No Range -1/2. Much better than 5E and actually cheaper than 4E (in Real Points but not in Active Points.

6 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Because this is Ron's project, and...

 

 

It seems to be departing more and more from original Champions rules, becoming more of a game of Ron's own design that shares a lot of Champions DNA.  I haven't seen recent betas myself.  

Oh, I know why it's based on 3E. I still don't see how it makes good business sense. That it originates from 3E or 6E might be a moot point depending on how far it departs from the source material and if it becomes its own thing.

4 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

I agree. This is why I ultimately say it is not a rules lite version of 3e. It's really a whole different game in the end. In fact, I'm a little bit flummoxed at how the DOJ is allowing him to basically rewrite their intellectual property into his own game.

Personally I still struggle to understand why it makes good business sense to build Champions Now on 3E. Isn't 6E supposed to be the Ultimate Toolkit to build a game, your game, with the feel you want, with that "thing" you want? Wouldn't Champions Now have been a great opportunity to demonstrate just that?

I am speaking a bit in a vacuum here since I haven't seen the Beta document. Any idea where I can access it?

55 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

May be a great system but as a version of Champions it sucks bigtime!  ? ? 

Ah, good thing it's not what it is at all then ?

On 1/18/2019 at 10:27 AM, Doc Democracy said:

GURPS.....

 I love GURPS, it's one of the best system out there... but this comment is quite funny nonetheless ?

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 10:47 AM, toddbanister said:

I recently had a personal book printed over at Lulu and I was very impressed with the quality so it got me thinking...

 

Before I begin - if this thread is in violation of the board in ANY way - I am extremely sorry. I am not trying to do anything wrong - I just want to get some opinions/help.

 

My plan is to create personal omnibus versions of my favorite three genre books that were never really updated to later editions. I have scanned each of the original three editions but I also want to include all other related works in the book. I have bought all related items that I could find from the store and currently my three omnibus editions include the following:

 

Cyber Hero:

Original Cyber Hero from ICE/Hero

Shadowpunk 0.91 edition (Fan created edition) 

 

Horror Hero:

Original Horror Hero from ICE/Hero

Haunted Heroes

Bloodsuckers Rampage

The Stuff of Nightmares, Vol 1

 

Western Hero:

Original Western Hero from ICE/Hero

Hell's Half Acre

Adventure Club #17 - Hi-Ho Silver Away - Greatest Western Heroes that Never Lived

Adventure Club #17 - Masters of the Spirit World

Adventure Club #17 - The Plot Thickens (1 page adventure seed)

Gun Fu

 

Have I missed any official (or even fan created) products along the way for these genres? I still need to go back through my Adventure Clubs looking for any related articles. I don't have any of the Digital Hero magazines so if anyone knows some that have related articles in them, please let me know and I will also grab them from the Store.

 

Does anyone know if version 0.91 is the latest edition of the fan created Shadowpunk book?

 

I also created some custom covers for the editions - please let me know what you think of them (or how I can improve them) when you have a minute.

 

And NO, I will not sell these personal editions or ever post them online anywhere. They are just for my own fun/collection. 

 

Thanks for the help everyone,

TB

 

Fantastic covers! Personally I would get rid of the black frame for Cyber HERO but your cover for Horror HERO is brilliant. Shame that I do not have access to either Horror HERO, Western HERO (nor GURPS Old West). I have hardcopies in boxes in Canada but do not have PDF (I believe they do not exist yet).

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 9:38 AM, dsatow said:

Because fair is fair and I think this is the harder question. 

It is actually a much easier question for me. I much, much, much prefer HERO 4E 5E, 5Er or 6E over 1E, 2E or 3E.

3 hours ago, starblaze said:

I like this one.

That's good because based on the latest Kickstarter comment, it'x the one we will get in the book!

1 hour ago, Doc Shadow said:

 

You call it "cheap", I call it honest.

 

Having actually bought the book, I paid for that privilege. I have all three editions of Golden Age Champions. The first and second are far superior.  

 

I'm sorry, I would much rather be able to say it was great. Just what I wanted.

 

But it wasn't, and I'm not going to lie about it.

 

The Emperor has no clothes.

In your opinion bro and your totally entitled to it. I personally much much prefer the latest edition of Golden Age over the former editions. The cover is okay-ish and I was bummed we didn't get to the full colour stretch goal but I thought the writing was excellent and engaging and really gave me a sense that I wanted to play in Golden Age game again.

Now did it have the same level of information on WWII compared to GURPS WWII? Of course not but they have a totally different focus. Sure they share a time period and a significant historical event but as their titles suggest, one focuses on describing the historical event itself and the other covers superheroes in the 30s and 40s. Both are great but for totally different reasons.

That being said, it prompts me to reopen the previous edition of Golden Age just for fun.

2 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Isn't 6E Transfer just Aid linked to Drain?  I seem to remember it being cheaper too. 

You are correct. I am not saying the 6E way is wrong. I just prefer the aesthetic of the previous build.

I prefer:

Transfer: Transfer END 4d6 (60 Active Points) Real Cost: 60 CP 

over

Transfer: Drain END 4d6 (40 Active Points); Unified

Power (-.) (total cost: 32 CP) plus Aid END 4d6 (standard effect:

same roll as Drain dice), Trigger (when character uses Drain,

activating Trigger takes no time, Trigger immediately automatically

resets; +1) (48 Active Points); Only Aid Self (-1), Linked (-.),

Unified Power (-.). Real Cost: 51 CP

and

Instant Change: Switch one set of clothes for another. Real Cost: 3 CP

over

Instant Change: Cosmetic Transform 1d6 (standard

effect: switch one set of clothes for another), Trigger (changing

clothing is a Zero Phase Action, Trigger automatically resets;

+.) (5 Active Points); Limited Target (the character’s current

clothing; -.). Real Cost: 3 CP

Ok, hopefully I didn't mess thing up too much. I have attempted to recreate Spider-Man using 3E. I have based him on the 6E version that I have instead of starting from scratch. Just a few observations:

1) In practice 6E secondary attributes are easier/more flexible but I still very much like the idea of figured characteristics.

2) I absolutely do not miss the movement in Hexes/Inches. Meters make so much more sense and I hope against hope that Champions Now would use them (but I know it won't)

3) I generally find the Power construction system much better in 6E (or 5E/5ER) but I still regret some of the decisions made. I would have kept Gliding, Transfer, Instant Change, etc instead of incorporating them with other powers.

4) I much prefer the skills in later editions

All in all, Champions 3E is an impressive game (especially for its time) but I would not go back to it (well, never really was with it since I started with 4E) as I do not feel it is as flexible or coherent as later editions. To be fair, my ideal edition of Champions would be somewhere 5ER and 6E with a good dash of 4E with the production value of Champions 6E in a format akin to Champions 4E or Champions Complete.

48 minutes ago, assault said:

 

First: try not to build up too much velocity!

 

A bit of flight or gliding works wonders. Acrobatics is nice too.

 

Of course, most teleporters can't just cancel velocity.

 Fair enough. I myself only just discovered (a few posts above) there was a beta document. I suppose if I knew where to find that document, it would answer some of my questions.

3 hours ago, Pariah said:

 

This is pretty much my assessment so far, too. CNow is what got me thinking about 3rd Ed again, though, so that's a good thing. And I'm well aware that the finished product in such cases often bears little to no resemblance to the beta version.

Ok, I am obviously not paying attention to CNow. Was there a link sent for a Beta version?

3 hours ago, assault said:

 

Champions Now?

 

They look pretty good, although the whole thing might end up being buried under Ron's vanity rant

 

there are a couple of quirks that might be deal breakers for some people.

 

The result isn't much like 3e though.

Even if I have supported the KS, I  haven't followed the development progress.

Can you elaborate on the 3 points above?

17 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I think there's not really very much from later editions that doesn't exist under 3rd edition, and judicious back-porting of stuff (with GM permission) should get around most of that.  The only things that flat out weren't there that I can think of off the top of my head were the resurrection adder for Healing/Regeneration, and Change Environment.  I think just about everything else could be pulled in from the first-gen Champions supplements, or the standalone games. 

I would agree. Although there are clear changes from 1E to 6E, the game is fundamentally the same. In a sense, aside from the few additions here and there (which are perhaps more obvious in the modifiers) later editions, rebalanced, codified and gave more guidance and examples. A potential drawback of the evolution is that it gave some people the impression that characters had to be more complex and have more stuff on the sheet.

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I just also wanted to say that I’m not an edition snob. Play and have fun! But also point out that some of the complexity of newer editions is to give you more options to make characters to your vision.

I would also suggest that the "complexity" of later editions is provided for gamers to use... or ignore. While we often hear about HERO's complexity, the fact is that characters can be built in a very convoluted way or in a very simple fashion and most of the time the system, though character points, will self balance. It is no more difficult to build a very simple character in HERO 6E than it is in earlier editions but later editions also provide for complex solutions. The power to make these design decisions rests with the players themselves and they choose the level of complexity their character will have.

In any case these are cool characters Pariah. Keep them coming!

7 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

I prefer a one-page format if at all possible, and I think the way you have it in the link Dread Domain provided is well done.  I agree with Amorcka that the font used is a bit small. 

Aldo has provided an updated sheet (which looks much better in my opinion). He said he would try to reduce the gap between the two columns.

Character Sheet take 3

It looks like a somewhat modernized take of the 3 columns sheet.

On 12/30/2018 at 8:28 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

It wouldn't be DC Comics if they didn't insanely overinflate the power level of their heroes

To be fair you could replace DC with Marvel in this sentence and it would still be true. I am no Aquaman expert but I believe his strength level has been in the 50 to 60 range (in HERO terms) for decades even though it is not really his schtick. Based on the latest comics I suppose it would be 60 at least maybe more.

If I recall correctly, a few years ago he was given STR 10 in the DC RPG which I believe equates to STR 60 in HERO. Decades earlier he only had STR 8 (STR 40 in HERO) in DC Heroes.

As usual his feats in comics (and now movies) do not necessarily match these numbers.

Hey, I missed that here! For everyone there is a discussion on rpg.net and Aldo has posted an updated layout (which is pretty good in my opinion).

Freedom Star take 2

17 minutes ago, Mark Rand said:

I should've specified Champions 4E.

Then are the floorplans in the core book is what you were looking for?

There is at least one version in Champions 4E and another in Champions the New Millenium.

Any recent news on Champions Now. I believe the last updated playtest document was a while ago already.

On 10/31/2018 at 11:43 AM, Mister Khan said:

Gardner Fox

Marshall Rogers

Steve Englehart

Marv Wolfman

Hergé

 

 

All great choices Khan. I second them all (thanks for thinking about Marshall and Hergé.

I nominate

John Buscema

Tom Mandrake

Tom Grummett