DarkGreen

Re: I get a subject line? Good thoughts. 1) The character can still save lots of points. Witness the "alchemist" character whose whole spell multipower is triggered and has major disads like extra end, 0 end concentration, and extra time to cast. I think adding the rule about having to keep the points in that particular multipower slot might be an interesting idea, although in many cases it will have the same effect as outlawing trigger. 2) Having a maximum number of spells "ready" does seem like a good idea to me. Another thought is that this is not a problem unique to HERO. in DnD anytime a spellcaster gets spells like fire trap or (especially) glyph of warding, it becomes logical to set up dozens or hundreds of prepared spells. -DG

First: Don't get me wrong, I like the bestiary. Second: It's hard to tell how tough the monsters will be as opponents in a hurry. The chart at the back is helpful but, for example, the velociraptor is far more dangerous than many of the equal point value other bad guys. I can't believe I'm saying this but I kind of miss the challenge ratings of d20. Those were great for the GM, especially with the lists of monsters by challenge rating. Minor quibble. Great book! -DG

Xiawarr- I am not familiar with the deadlands system. Once you deal cards is it just high card first? Sounds like a mess with 4 players. Everyone - Another way to mitigate what you may see as "metagaming" is that you can institute a house rule that if someone wants to hold their phase to another segment then they need a tactics roll. The tactics roll is made at the end of their actual phase going into the next segment and if they fail it then they're only holding a half action. That should at least require that only the characters who are "tactical experts" can do such things, and occasionally it will backfire even for them. -DG

Neat thread. I hope a good answer come's up! Yog's idea is pretty cool and simple. It doesn't require the players to do anything. -DG

Indeed, I think we lost the core of the discussion. Specifically apparently on "Conquest" they said that swords could have weighed "up to 15lbs" -- or so I'm told, I never saw that episode. I think we would all agree that is much heavier than the normal weapon. My argument was simply that the statement could be technically correct since I have seen ONE OR TWO actual weapons on that scale. I also definitely am skeptical of the website put out earlier. Someone should check the sources he cites and the formula he uses. As for Nelijal's example, I think you should start with a bar twice as thick if your sword will be wrought iron (as opposed to actual steel). Otherwise you're building a lengthy screwdriver I have something of roughly those dimensions I tried to make into a blade back when I was starting blacksmithing, we now use it for opening paint buckets If someone just asked me the typical weight for the swords weilded by most combatants in the late middle ages I would say 2-4 pounds. -DG

My what an interesting social life you must have! -DG

Re: Not A Flame Joe- That's actually the opposite of what we get with the magic system above! When we used to use the version from the FH book people did indeed specialize. You would have the dream mage, for example, who had a big mental illusion spell and used it every phase. With the multipower method we use, however, each slot is typically 1-2 points (maybe 3 for big spells), and people think nothing of increasing their spellbook almost every session. I think every mage/cleric we've had has had spells for figuring things out, spells for movement, spells for helping others, and combat spells. In general we find that the HERO system actually allows for less specialized characters than most other systems. This is what eventually sold it for the DnD fanatics. My last character, for example, was a dwarven axe wielder who also had "craft magic". He was a spellcaster who, in combat, typically went toe to toe with the enemy and who wore dwarven plate, but who knew a few spells that were useful out of combat. Very difficult to do efficiently in DnD, and yet it was very plausible with a 50+50pt FH character. Of course, monks aren't as all-powerful in FH -DG

Keneton- I used to allow trigger but then.... What about triggered combined with extra time? You wind up with mages (or alchemists for special effects) who spend hours pre-casting all their spells then just triggering them in combat. And every player will be firing arrows that explode on impact and every sword will do extra damage. While the spells can be kept under more control (that was a reductio ad absurdium) the problem with trigger is that it makes most other limitations into non-factors. Who cares if a spell is cast at 0 DCV, takes a turn, and must be cast in a magic circle if the mage is just going to prepare them all the night before. Most of my monsters don't have dispel abilities. In my experience you need to make the mage cast IN COMBAT otherwise the limits get ridiculous and don't actually limit. As with many of the house rules I have a demo character who breaks it (has trigger on many spells) and he's something you would never, ever, want to see in the game. As for the 1/2 DCV, you may be on to something there. Most mages don't complain about it since they rarely cast spells in close combat (after all, a sword has pretty hefty active points and is free). The only mage who's ever been hosed by it was one I was playing who got surprised from behind by something with reach while casting a spell and died as a result. We all agreed it was good adventuring though I would probably let someone ditch the 1/2 DCV if they made a combat centered mage. But it's a nice default 'cause it lets the PC conan types totally wallop those annoying enemy sorcerers when they finally climb the trellis to their balcony Cheers, -DG

Re: Ahhh Hmmm... was that a flame? Sigh. Of COURSE that's not how my FH game goes, otherwise would there be a magic system at all? As I'm sure you're aware, though, races are typically built ahead of time and the GM typically designs the magic weapons so they are under control. But no race in my campaign has abilities like, for example, desolidification or invisibility. And yet those things are available through magic. The rules above present a framework under which such abilities are accesible while keeping the fantasy flavor instead of turning FH into a superhero game. Cheers, -DG

MANY excellent points here. 1) I would like to agree with the importance of a magic system. It took my group years to develop one, and this after buying the earlier FH books and finding that the previous system was just a mess (in our game-testing opinion). I would recommend that if there are any tradeoffs it would be OK to have fewer than 12 magic systems as long as each was better developed. I would rather see 4 genuinely considered and play tested magic systems than 12 partial systems I can't use. Also it would be nice if they were numbered so I can tell new players, "we use magic system 2." 2) Rules on creating magic items would, indeed, be nice 3) I really like the extensive talent list you mentioned. That should silence the d20 refugees who keep complaining about a lack of feats. They just can't seem to absorb that they can build their own! 4) Body and DEF for fantasy objects like wagons, hearths, etc. Also maybe some skill modifiers for fantasy objects (climbing a thatch building, etc.) 5) How about a random fantasy name generator? -DG

We had a player like that for a while. It took us over a year to finally kick him out, then we couldn't figure out why we waited so bloody long. I could list his crimes, but this would turn into a ten page rant. -DG

Thanks for the compliment Keneton. Now, your description of level and multipower use is how I typically run things - BUT sadly it is not the rules. For PER rolls a fast patdown of someone takes a phase (pg 306), and the special version of PER roll for fighting someone invisible using a non-targeting sense - making a non-targeting sense work as a targeting sense takes 1/2 phase (action chart pg 237). The PER roll is typically a zero phase action if it is just to "notice something" that the GM wants to know if you see. My example was considering that the GM was asking the character to roll a PER roll to notice something. Also on page 237 it notes that changing skill levels or a multipower is a 0 phase action. In the section discussing actions and the combat phase it is clearly stated that you can take all the 0 phase actions you want at the start of your phase and after a 1/2 phase action if it's not an attack. This is borne out by the FAQ entry I just found (thanks Monolith, I gotta search that more often): ========================== Q: Can a character re-arrange his CSLs more than once in a Phase — for example, at the start of his Phase (a Zero-Phase Action), and then again after making a Half Move (as another Zero-Phase Action)? A: Generally speaking, no. In most cases a character should only allocate his CSLs once in a Phase. The example above shows just how potentially abusive allowing multiple allocations in the same Phase can be. However, it should be noted that, under a strict technical interpretation of the rules, what you’re describing is possible. To say characters should never be allowed to allocate a CSL more than once during a Segment could potentially impede a lot of perfectly valid and dramatic actions. Multiple allocations in a Segment might be appropriate in many situations, campaigns, and genres. The GM might allow it as a campaign ground rule, as a one-time thing in appropriate circumstances, or as a trick occasionally pulled with the assistance of an appropriate Power Skill roll. ========================= I guess it's easy enough to make a house rule as above, but the fact that I had a house rule is what spurred me to start the thread. I'm always curious if my house rules are fair or not and for all I knew, everybody else lets people shift their levels and multipowers all they want Sounds like most people do what I do and the FAQ recommends it. That makes me feel better about staring down any players who get pouty and say "the rules say I can do this!" Presumably this will all get cleaned up in sixth edition -DG

I don't get that comment about it not being persistant and presence attack. The thing I'm worried about is the scenario where a character's phase is like this: Let's assume a heroic campaign (I know.. this is the champions thread... but it makes the point clearer), with a character on a horse: Looks around (overall level in PER) Half Move (overall level in Riding or DCV) Looks around again (overall level in PER) Says something dramatic (overall level in Oratory for PRE attack) Attacks (overall level in offense) Hmm... Now that overall level subbed in for many levels and is worth way more than 10 points. -DG

Joe- I'm assuming you're referring to my post... The mage doesn't have extra limitations on him, quite to the contrary he can use any rules anyone else can AND if he wants magic, there are the rules to access it above. Since no one else can buy powers it is NOT an anti-mage stance. Any campaigns need rules like that if you intend for the characters to not be supers. Now if you're going to let everyone buy powers, then your right and there's no benefit for the mage to use those rules at the top. We have played that way before (wound up with a party at 150pts that included a vampire, an earth elemental, and a demon) but it really wasn't a typical "fantasy" campaign and nobody cared about magic swords or anything like that. If you're trying to have a balanced fantasy campaign, you need to have rules for the mage, just like in a supers campaign the GM will read through and make sure that the supers don't have bizarre stuff that he doesn't want in the campaign (like extradim movement usable as an attack, etc...). -DG

Now that IS an interesting approach. Scroll and potion making spells can have mandatory side effects that lessen the mage's abilities for days. That allows the GM to control the scroll and potion count by tempo rather than quantity of materials (which can get arbitrary and start odd escalations with the characters). Neato! -DG

In our campaign you can't get martial arts without special permission. I don't think we ever considered that maybe we should let elves have it. In practicality STR is just so darn efficient that even with a lower racial max all the Elven characters seem to have high strengths. Even at 2 pts per STR it's worth reaching for an 18, it affects too many things. As for the martial arts, don't forget that martial DCs stack on top of weapon DCs and aren't subject to the "max effect is double base" rule. I've built reference characters with martial arts and PSLs on 100 pts who can do 4d6K or more, 3 times a round at a 10 OCV while still having a 6DCV and being able to call the head with no penalty. I would never PLAY such a character, of course, but it was an illustration to my co-GM as to why we needed certain guidelines and house rules regarding levels and Martial Arts. -DG

Did you ever see the "Pine Sol Productions" english dubbed versions? I love the way they added little background noises sometimes (squelches, squeaks, and once as the dirty pair jumped on a guard a digitized voice yelled something fairly naughty but incredibly funny). I can't imagine how one would write them up. Lots of luck and combat luck is certainly involved. -DG

HAH! Some proposed Blakes 7 HERO house guidelines: 1) Blaster weapons do plenty of killing damage (say 3d6K for a hand laser) 2) PCs are not allowed to wear significant armor or carry much equipment 3) Full hit location and crippling rules are in effect 4) Bring several spare characters to every session That should get you started -DG

Hmm... that's almost TOO clever. Maybe I'll have to step up my posting rate. I would like to at least be judged a "competent normal" -DG

Thank goodness the tables are a reasonable size. My group was quite disappointed with the Resource Kit. One guy bought it and we spent some time laughing at the alternately ludicrously over and undersized objects (together on the same maps!), then swore no one else would waste the money. Wasn't worthy of the Hero Games name, sorry -DG

Storn is too humble. He is very good. -DG

I thought of this due to the DD clone someone just posted. How do people deal with those who have multipowers containing both movement powers and attacks (or defenses!). By the rules they could theoretically make a half move and then swap their points over to something else to attack/defend, but that always feels abusive to me. How do people treat this? The "levels swapping" issue is similar, although in my group we just settled on the rule that a level can only be assigned one place per phase. As per the rules (reassigning levels is 0-phase and thus could be done after a half-move or skill usage) it can get messy. -DG

Ley Lines We actually recently implemented a ley line system that both lowers active points and boosts END reserve recovery on ley lines, and does even more at nexus points. It's VERY fun because it gives a reason for all those weird mages and craftsmen to have remote subterrainean/mountaintop/etc bases. The dwarves turn out to be such good metalsmiths because they have learned to put their best forges at nexus points, shrines have to be in specific places, and suddenly it becomes a lot more important to defend the sacred tree (and so on). I don't have the document handy for the effects but it was a dual effect - active points for skill purposes and recovery. -DG

We don't have a good solution for potions yet. They have to be VERY carefully regulated, though, or it's very easy to abuse trigger effects. Any ideas? -DG

Whee, first post on new FH boards! I just wanted to continue the discussion on how to make good FH magic systems. To recount what has been worked out (and playtested!) so far: Maximum active points is 2xINT for hermetic casters, 2xPRE for religious casters Spell guidelines Each mage buys a multipower, each spell will be an ultra slot. A spell cannot be altered once purchased (to add d6, for example) but a new spell can be bought with the desired effect. Basic END for magic is 1 per 5 AP, spells must be full endance or zero endurance – no reduced endurance. Required disadvantages are: Gestures, incantations, concentrate to 1/2DCV (to cast), Requires magic roll – total –1.5 DCV/Dex modifiers due to armor apply to magic skill rolls due to gestures. Optional disadvantages are: Full phase, OAF (staff) – but these must be taken on the whole multipower (thus affecting all spells) Per-spell optional disadvantages are: expendable focus, extra end, extra time (concentration is throughout casting), Outlawed Advantages: Charges/continuing charges, Trigger Outlawed Powers: Pre/Retrocognition, Transforms with improved target group, FTL, Find weakness A mage may optionally purchase an END battery, in which case all his spells will draw from that. The END battery may not refill on it’s own in under 5 hours. It is acceptable to have ways to refill the END battery based on a magical ceremony. Examples might be sacrifices, giant fires for fire mages, religious ceremonies with followers, etc… ================================= Thoughts and feedback appreciated. There were many good posts before on this topic (including by the people who developed much of the above, but whose names I can't remember!!) I wanted to get this posted to help out those starting FH campaigns. -DG