Duke Bushido

Hugh; Doc: I appreciate the effort. I already know that Drain / Suppress combined with a VPP is the best possible work-around. The problem there is two-fold. Once is having the correct pool size at the time, and the other is that every use of this "steal your powers" power becomes a game-halting character-generation session. I am not saying that you can't "do anything" with HERO. I'm just saying that there is at least one thing that it does really, really poorly. There's even a built-in meta solution: No one who has ever built a character that does this ever wants to do it again.

The only thing I'm missing from 4e and back is Unknown Eagles: Special Ops (and I don't expect a lot of Viper in there ) and the various GM screens. I checked everything Champions and Dark Champions (just in case), to include the adventures and third party stuff. As far as I am able to determine, you have an exhaustive list of all the "villains because of Viper" characters. I did _not_ include all the "already super villains who occasionally work with Viper," simply because it didn't occur to me that such entries would be helpful until I was halfway done. Check the Anime section: they've got a few hundred we can borrow. While you're over there, see if you can find some HERO write ups for Riki-Oh.

On the other side of the coin, though, is the --- I don't know the traditional name for them; I'm going to go with Power Thief: the character who steals powers--- _any_ powers-- from another character. SFX don't matter. One touch, and he slurps up the powers and suddenly they are his. There is also the guy who "steals" a copy of the power, while leaving the target's power reduced or sometimes completely unaffected: he just makes a copy. (for what it's worth, I find these two -- particularly the second one-- to be the most irritating to build and the most game-slowing to run or play. Yes: you _can_ make it with HERO, but not well, and you shouldn't. ) At any rate, Drain (and Transfer) have always felt like _these_ were the characters they were trying to model because there is already a unifying theme of sorts: I steal the power. Since I can steal / copy it, it doesn't matter what the SFX is (apparently). I don't think anyone has ever had a big complaint about adjustment powers used in this way (could be wrong: there's always some way to quibble over the math ), but they start to feel kind of goofy when they are being used simply to deprive another character of the power, period (or to fuel a totally-unrelated ability). Why is that?

That's everything 1st through 4th edition except the relevant Adventurers Club books (I don't think there's any VIPER-created villains in any of those, though. I could be wrong). My 5e "collection" is .... spotty.... consisting only of the rules books and the genre books that interested me and some of the Ultimate books; my 6e collection is MHI, FH, FHC, CC, and eight of the nine"blue books." Oh, and the widening Gyre, of course. None of that is going to help you with the information you're looking for.

VIper (4e) cont: Brick (again): slight retcon makes him more well-rounded and drops Lirby Koo from the origin. The retcon also adds "remembers nothing of who he was" yet adds a boatload os science skills that are quite clearly from "who he was." So you tell me.... Anyway, VIPER made him a bad guy. Well, _more_ of a bad guy, since he was already in the mountains doing unethical experiments. Citadel (though there is a "Hero Option," so in your campaign, he may no longer be a villain) Damage Gravity may not be what you're looking for: she was already a Villain when she came to VIPER (in an attempt to get some protection from Bulldozer and his "affections.") Hammerhead Mind Wipe Urko Phaze Scattershot--- _sort of_.... He was already in the middle of a psychotic break that made him think he was an assassin; VIPER just let him run with it and gave him some training.... Shadow Fist: already had powers and had just killed a guy when VIPER recruited him. So all they did was train him and give him a job; he was already a super-villain. :/ Viperia: again, already a super villain, she was taken in by VIPER for training and, apparently, promotional reasons. Heinous and Despite (Cyborgs, Inc): VIPER was late on the scene: they were already criminals (Heinous being a VIPER researcher for a bit) and cyborgs by the time VIPER reached out to them. So, I guess these two are a no-go? Doll Maker: already had powers and already committing crimes before he tied in with VIPER. Seems to be a pattern in this book. Modem: created by the Supreme Serpent himself, but.... well, he gathers intelligence, and there's nothing to suggest he does it in any remotely illegal fashion, so.... villain....? Sheath: again with the "already a super villain" pattern, but hey-- Sheath. Congressman Jefferson Gable (again, but this time he's a robot). Supreme Serpent: again: he already was what he was before he made a deal with a buddy to become the Supreme Serpent and make VIPER a real power player. Frankly, I don't know _anyone_ wo was happy with this after the initial giggle fit. Most of the GMs I knew when this book was fresh went with either Option 4 or 5. The others were a bit to "Bobby's wife had a dream in the shower" to make any players pleased to stumble across this info. Awww.... I had forgotten that this book had a nicely-modernized, expanded version of Viper's Nest at the end (though I think it's simply the "campaign book" from the boxed Champions 3e set). Still, it's nice to know Viper's Nest was so important to folks all those years later.... I heard Champions 25th Anniversary Edition had an updated Island of Dr. D, but I can't find a copy anywhere (having never heard of it's existence until I returned to these boards, I missed it when it was new). Things like that make me happy.

That's the case with pretty much everything. In the world at large, most things are pretty okay. In California, all things are known to cause cancer and reproductive harm. So whatever it is you need or want, don't get the California version.

Wow. That makes me sad.....

Nope. There is not.

Try this: Drain: certain power or Drain: certain SFX Then consider the _actual_ power being built, as opposed to the mechanic behind it. In DD's examples: the Flight only on a surface would count as running for Drain: running. Flight: usable as swimming would be reduced in efficiency as swimming for "Drain: Swimming." Further, --- and there's no way to write a mechanic for this, so I'm pretty sure it'll be jeered-- consider the SFX _first_. The player with the Drain should assign an SFX or a related set of SFX against which his Drain is effective. Against those powers, his Drain works normally. However, it can also be applied to other powers with similar SFX, though much less effectively. Stop: I want to take a minute to post the reminder that I play 2e, and that Drains worked entirely differently then, and to be honest, I'm not sure I remember how the work in the newer editions, so what I'm saying may not help anything. That being said, a character with Drain: Flight-- wind SFX can use his drain against wind SFX-powered Flight as normal. Other Flight that ties in to that SFX: say actual wings, for example: not a lot of good against a character who can somehow affect the wind, even if it's only to steal Flight, so in this case, the judgement is that the SFX is related closely enough that the Drain works in this case as well. He can also use it against other wind-SFX powers, but much less effectively. He could use it to drain a wind-based RKA, for example, but would ---hold it. One more note; bear with me: 2e doesn't specific "Active points" for Drain (though to be fair, I don't know if later editions do, either), so we don't play it as having to drain Active Points: if you've got enough power modifiers that the whole 60 AP power costs you 10 points, well when 10 points are drained, you don't have that power (at least until it "heals back.") Like everyone else, this mechanics v SFX issue has plagued us since the early days with regard to "adjustment" powers, so we resolved it by allowing Drain to affect powers with similar SFX, but that the Draining character would have to drain Active Points for powers that were not the power specified when the Drain was purchased. It's not perfect, per se, but if you make it clear going in, then players don't see to unhappy with the results, and they like the trade-off utility for not being able to Drain, say Flight as powered by rocket boots. At any rate, that's how we've been dealing with it for a few decades. Works "okay enough" for our purposes.

Viper: Well these will all be obvious. Not so much. I mean sure: the VIPER-funded groups like Viper Force 1 and 2, the Serpent Syndicate, and the Snake Pack wouldn't exist without being created, and VIPER created them, but the others-- well, most of them would have been criminals-- already _were_ criminals-- when they begin to associate with VIPER. Anyway, moving on: While the Serpent Syndicate were already villains, The Snake Pack is all VIPER-created using their own version of the gene-mutating formula. Snake Pack members are: Pack Master Coral Massasauga Kufi Viper Force One: Chasm Blackflame Mirror Man Rampage Shift Stealth Viper Force Two: Armstrong (not my Armstrong. ) Black Lion Cannon Forcebeam Madame Blue Savant Smoke Stalwart Okay, that's as far as I've re-read, and likely all I'm going to do to day. Forgive me, but I've done a Hell of a lot of reading the last few days....

It's possible he just didn't want Viper there. They can't be in _every_ city: they'd need the largest budget in the _world_ to make that happen. Seems like there was some Blackwyrm stuff that used "official" material-- yeah: the Foxbat books. At any rate, it doesn't really matter why the did or didn't. I'm just trying to help out by finding all the "villains because of Viper" I currently have access to, at least until I don't need the distraction anymore.

oh-- and also: after a lengthy night of pacing and reading, it seems that there's not so much as a Nest anywhere near San Angelo and its many supplements.

European Enemies: Glacier. Straight up created from chemicals, ice, and corpses by VIPER (completely on accident). An atypical villain, though: more of the rampaging brute than the crime-for-a-purpose type. You'd really think High Tech Enemies would be chock full o' VIPER tie-ins, but no. Even those who have worked with VIPER were already established villains by the time they came to VIPER, and they didn't even join so much as "work with." Though it seems damned near everyone in that book is Hunted or Watched by VIPER. Still-- no dice. Justice, not Law: Jefferson Gable (also mentioned in VIPER) is in bed with Dutchess Industries, which is, as we know, VIPER. Honestly, everyone with ties to VIPER who is mentioned in J, not Law is better-detailed in VIPER anyway, so let's just say there's nothing useful here. Kingdom of Champions: Breaking Glass: powers from VIPER in a deal to work for them. Dr. Mantis: apparently already a nut-job, being recruited by VIPER gave him a jump start on his career and access to lots of tech so as to set himself up nicely. Project: Armour is successful because the founder purposely borrowed the VIPER organizational structure. Mind Games: Omega: an exceptional soldier recruited to VIPER, which got him started on the criminal path. He became a Nest Leader, learned of PSI, and defected before someone under him wanted a promotion. Now powered armor villain and PSI's security chief. The Mutant Files: Yeah; I wasn't expecting anything either. I figured "mutant book. Probably some mutants in it." Makeshift: Upon the appearance of his powers, his VIPER-agent father kidnapped him and used him as a lab animal and (apparently) did away with his mother. After escaping VIPER, he's been a criminal weapons designer and combatant for hire. Normals Unbound: Yep; here's another place I never thought to look for VIPER. and yet... Congressional Representative Jasperson (no first name or state given): close ties with VIPER (undisclosed) to the point of being able to order hits on high-profile targets. Stephen Pierce: Regional director of PRIMUS _and_ a VIPER Nest Leader. He's almost despicable enough to get into UNTIL. Powerfist: A framed soldier recruited by VIPER and given super powers (because the authors / editors didn't have a real good grasp of the types of people you should find in a "normals" book). Now he's eventually "turned" by an old friend and becomes a respectable member of society and stops using his powers, etc--- but that doesn't mean he's going to _stay_ that way. Primus (4e): Kevin Armstrong. Granted, he's an agent-level guy, but a Silver Avenger who was disillusioned with the dickish Golden Avenger and joined VIPER. Captured by Primus, sprung from Stronghold, and now a Goose. Road Kill: Boomer: already a criminal, but thanks to VIPER getting him mad enough to infiltrate and then giving him the opportunity to strike out by stealing their tech, which ramped him from criminal to super criminal. Have fun with that.

Dystopia: Hammerhand was created by AAI as a replacement for Pile Driver after VIPER killed him while he was on assignment to AAI (yeah; it didn't make sense to me, either, but hey....) Terrence Bridge (owner and CEO of AAI) is a Nest Leader. Had VIPER not forced Dart into teaming up with Ultraviolet, he likely would not have become a full-fledged villain under Lirby Koo (still hate that name) after he finished his petty "revenge" scheme against his coworkers. Ironically, VIPER / AAI tech supplies him with the armor that bolsters his fading powers. Enemies Assemble Arsenal: the pressures of being double agent drove him to steal a power suit and become his own man Leroy, the Awesome Exoskeleton Man! I can't believe I forgot about Leroy. A VIPER agent who, at the moment of disillusionment with VIPER, was handed a piece of VIPER technology by Foxbat, and became his loyal hanger-on. Agent Orange. You know, I'm not going to explain this one. Suffice it to say VIPER gave him powers; Foxbat gave him a job. Agent X and Charly: These are both kind of a stretch: VIPER did not make them criminals per se, or even give them their powers-- but they did make them fugitives and drove them both to Foxbat. Bolt: works (worked?) with VIPER, but we are left unclear as to whether VIPER is instrumental in Bolt's powers or criminal career. I'd give this one a pass, personally. Cool Drake: VIPER scientist using VIPER money to build VIPER gear. Built his own gear with VIPER money. Extreme Prejudice: see Bolt. Flip: works for/with VIPER, but was already a super villain before signing on. Interface: see Bolt. Mice: Created by VIPER, and driven to crime by VIPER's attempt to kill him / them. Also a fun read, really. Roundhouse: see Bolt. Sundown: see Bolt. Wraith: see Bolt. NIghtwraith: see Bolt.

Classic Enemies (the collected Enemies books from the previous editions, updated and occasionally retcon tweaked. For example, Classic cements the role UNTIL played in leading Binder to a life as a super criminal, making them ultimately culpable for the Ultimates. I should make a a chart showing all the published organizations and their culpability in the creation of super-powered criminals. Right up until the VIPER sourcebook got published, I'm pretty sure UNTIL was the leading cause of super crime on the planet.) Arc is kind of a stretch: He only ended up working the project that gave him his powers because his last project was funded by and ruined by VIPER, making him almost unemployable-- it's bad for the rep. So, _kinda_ given powers and motivation by VIPER, a little? (look; I know you did this book already, but I can pace around the house reading a book, and it distracts me a bit ) Ankylosaur: new look that allows him to stand upright, but origin still built around VIPER. Wyvern: Created by UNTIL. Yep. UNTIL agent throws a grenade at a cowardly VIPER agent hiding in an unused lab, causing an explosion that showers him with chemicals and energize cables. Let me point out that UNTIL _Agents_ (that's plural: more than one armed guy) found a single opponent, cowering in fear behind a computer bank, and threw a frackin' GRENADE at him: Hey, Joey! Check out that guy with on his hands and knees in the corner, with his face jammed behind that machine and his hands over his head. Look at 'I'm shake! "Yeah, Mike; I see him-- big green ass up in the air.... Cover me, Mikey. Though I don't guess we're gonna have much trouble arrestin' this clown...." "Hey, Wait! I gotta better idea! See if you can roll a grenade like right up _under_ him, between his feet!" Ho, yeah! Tag him right in the hackey sack! Okay, check this out....!" UNTIL is a dangerous pack of self-righteous, evil bastards. It's like taking a street gang out of Los Angeles and giving them Tony Stark's weapons locker and saying "A'ight; listen up! You is de police now!" anyway Wyvern. Panda and Raccoon... sort of (again). Panda was already with PSI, and likely would have been a villain even without VIPER. Raccoon is solid "VIPER" though. Black Diamond has made an enemy of VIPER, but they have nothing to do with her powers or her being a villain. Dreadnought has nothing to do with VIPER, but I was annoyed by the retcon to "Professor Klankenhuasen" from the original (and more thematically-appropriate) "Klankenhissen." Just wanted to toss that out there. Gremlin got her powers from a VIPER formula, though she was not working for or with VIPER, ever, and she was already a person of dubious moral fiber. Power Crusher remains unchanged: still using VIPER tech to be a dipstick.

Great. With the inclusion of the qualifier "Disney," you have turned me into d damned hipster. 😕 I gave up on Star Wars before it was cool. I thought "return of the jedi" was pretty f'n stupid.

Thank you, Sir. I should move further north and inland, according to my wife, but the fact is that even in central GA I can feel the damned things before they get to T&T; I'd have to leave the _earth_ to get away from it. Yeah, that ambiguity is why I didn't bother including any of those. Well, that, and the stipulation was "villains _because_ of VIPER. I'm pretty sure either of those two (not Phantom) guys would be criminals without VIPER. Just a hunch.

Champions Universe (4e): A mention of a "Chameleon" in the "history" section and that VIPER accomplished something they couldn't do without him. No write-up. There may be more in that thing, but Dude, I'm not in the mood to read that thing. I never liked the damned things anyway: they come off as "here's how _our_ campaign went, even a thousand years before we started it, and since it's official now, it has to be a part of yours." Well bend yours and the arrogance it rode in on. My world doesn't need your history, and that one is stupidly long. Jeez, Dude. Ignore me. I'm hurting and my mood is _foul_. I'll be glad when this storm passes and I can focus-- or at least sleep. UNTIL is listed, specifically in relation to their competition dealings with VIPER. It's fairly safe to assume that without VIPER, UNTIL would not be the massive threat to global peace and every man woman and child on the earth that it is today. Death Commando gets a tweak in this one, even though it still spells out that he's a bully and a gun nut and a lunatic killer whom UNTIL recognized as exactly such, so they took him in and trained him--- seriously; I cannot _fathom_ who these are the good guys, though I _totally_ understand why PRIMUS doesn't want them on US soil: they are responsible for more problems than VIPER ever was! At any rate, DC eventually sold out to VIPER and is "currently" a VIPER villain, putting all that UNTIL "let's teach the sociopath with the talent for guns and killing how to formulate strategies and tactics" training to good use. Oh, and that UNTIL death ray. Every global source for good should be handing those things out like candy.

Champions Presents 2: Dr. Tennison. To be fair, though: he just works there. I mean, he's a villain of sorts, but likely would be just as at home with the villainy of UNTIL if VIPER hadn't picked him up. Vince Tresgrove. He worked for Tennison while at VIPER, but again-- he would just as likely be a villain without VIPER, so long as Tennison was laying down cash. Oh, sweet! You know, I've never actually read this book (in spite of owning for honest-to-God _decades_. Thanks for the probing question and the weather forcing me to find distractions from the spinal pains. I never realized Murder in Stronghold made the leap from Adventurers Club to an actual book-book. Neat! Anyway-- moving on: There is also mention of a Doctor Snow, but I can't focus enough to run that rabbit, at least not tonight. Don't know if he's a good guy or a bad guy. Or a MacGuffin. Buzzsaw: VIPER provides him with both powers and motivation. Granted, he wasn't a swell guy beforehand... Wallbanger: Already had powers; VIPER drove him to villainy as a means of survival. For the record, UNTIL had a hand in this one, too. This book seems to be where COIL sprang from, though it specifically says that they have nothing to do with VIPER except compete for the world. It also notes that UNTIL has been made aware of COIL, who has placed them on a list with VIPER, DEMON, and PSI. Given UNTIL's own history, I am forced to conclude that this list is nothing more than a catalogue of competitors or potential allies.

Champions Presents 1: Prism Rage. Rage is your call, really. He was created by Prism in the quest for allies against VIPER. Technically, he wouldn't exist without VIPER's direct action. Hotshot: Same sort of deal. He's a villain because his idol / best friend / man crush Prism is a villain, and Prism is a villain because of VIPER. I don't know if that fits what you're looking for or not, but there it is. Slime: again, created and made villainous by Prism in order to join him in his big kill-on for VIPER. Heatseeker, Nimbus, Lightshow, Purple Haze: same deal.

That wraps it up for 3e and back. Just started 4e; entries should be thickening up soon.

Of all the people to miss the meaning of "Limitation," I really didn't think one of them would be you. Of all the people who miss the idea the the GM enforces Limitations, I didn't think one of them would be you. None of those examples are Limitations. Therefore, when they are suggested, the GM says something along the lines of "you can't fine it tune it quite that way" or whatever works. As with your great epiphany above, go back to what the terms actually mean, and how they work. First and foremost, the GM has to approve _any_ limitation, one whatever grounds, most typically being "the player can't justify it" or "I can't handle that mid-game without slowing things up." Now I believe we agree that this conversation assumes the GM has agreed to it. And we have a ba-frakin'-_jillion_ arguments as to why it's incredibly advantageous to not be able to tell the entire city "There's a frickin' missile headed right for us" all at once. There are numerous assumptions that "hum, nothing stops him from defining his group as the entire damned universe!" Well being unable to tell everyone something of grave urgency is limiting. And there _is_ something limiting this construct, and that something is the goddnnnd GM and the mandatory conversation during character generation that includes "tell me how this is limiting; not good enough-- let's work something out that feels right." Granted, there's no damned mechanic for it, therefore there is no way to expect someone who wants to play a game to stick to the spirit of it, I suppose, and positively no way for the GM to say "that would run counter to what we agreed on." None. None at all. Hell, there's probably a mechanic that specifically forbids that anymore. Damn. The boy wants some validation that this might be a Limitation. Hell, let's do the opposite. Complaining about how everyone else plays the game is scheduled to come around every six weeks or so; we all know that. But it's a holiday weekend (for a lot of us). Let's put that off and see how it might actually _work_ as specified. Most of us are aware that there's a hurricane coming. Why is that relevant? Because it means I have to bow out. Between the twice-broken spine and the busted up neck, and the fact that synovial fluid responds to barometric pressure, I am in too damned much pain to play nice. I will see you fine folks when the storm is over.

Ah-- having re-read the original post a bit more closely-- that part about "a cheap way to off a vampire lord" bit-- that's going to depend on how the _vampire_ is written up: that "rapidly ages to dust" trope? That's a character disadplication. If he has something on his character sheet-- something like "Dependent: Life Support Longevity" with the side-effects of being deprived of that as something akin to "6d6 KA per segment," then yes-- it's an inexpensive way off him (eventually). But as-written, all a Drain does is turn a power off, period. (I suppose I might let a Drain: BODY take someone out, if only because it's a really expensive way to do it. You've sort of earned it. But again: that trope works because of an inherent problem with the vampire himself; not because the Drain did something wonderfully devious.)