Duke Bushido

I'm with Greywind: It would turn off the effect of the power. That is, the moment you turned it off, he would begin to age. At the "normal" one minute = one minute rate. When the Drain "healed back," he would stop aging again. Like GB(i!), I have ruled that certain things are innate, simply because it makes dramatic sense. However, some of these can still be affected by Drains, Suppress, etc--- this is one of those instances where SFX is _important_. For example: I'm not going to let a Drain: Flight just automatically rob a winged character of his Flight because the mechanics say so. If the Drain were defined as doing something to the portion of the brain that controls Flight, or turning the air into Jell-O-- something like that? Okay, sure. Wing Guy can't fly for a bit. It's a double-edged sword, though: I'm not going to let him fly if there isn't room to spread his wings, either, even if he didn't opt for the Limitation: Restrainable. To use the Atlantean reference given above: someone with Drain: Life Support isn't going to automatically deprive another character of his gills. If, however, this Drain was defined as a cloud of billion teensy bits bits of plastic that are released into the air (or water), then yes: I will without problem let them affect gills (when released into the water) as easily as they might affect lungs (when released into the air). I also know that I'm an odd-man out; there are a lot of people who will rule "it works because there's a mechanic," without regard to how appropriate the interaction may or may not be. Mileage will vary.

Sorry, Scott. That sounds like Stat Wars, and if you don't mind, I'd just as soon _not_ see ut; thanks.

Mallet: Forgive me for not quoting; I'm on a touch screen and pressed for time. Yes: the Select option for auto fire does require picking out who gets hit and who doesn't. Or maybe I'm confusing it with skip over (is that still a thi g in 6e?) At any rate, I am stretching it a bit- not too terribly. Much, I dont think, but instead of selecting from a group one target at a time to be affected, I am proposing it to select a group: colorblind people; blood relatives of the Queen of China, followers of the Buddha as he dwells within Mr. T. ; whoever. In this usage, the power in no way affects what the player must know about his targets: the player merely decides to use his power in such a way that only the-group-of-the-moment gets a legible copy, as it were. As mentioned above, if a person has a power of "doesn't work against X, it does not give him foreknowledge about where X might be lying around; he uses it and hopes for the best. There are multipower builds that feature more or less the same power with different advantages and limitations: we read them as the character setting up the power "such that it does X," and we don't bat an eye. The problem at the core of the disagreement here is that we are dealing with a limitation that changes, and in spite of the fact that the character is denied "full basic utility" of an unlimited power, a portion of us are seeing this limited power as advantageous "because he can pick and chose who doesn't see it.". We aren't all seeing two important things: He has no way to make it visible to everyone (assuming that the GM accepts the build), It is _not_ undectable to anyone outside the permitted group: that takes IPE, after all. IPE _is_ an advantage, and what the player is proposing is a disadvantage. We are forgetting that the player and the GM should get together at this point and discuss _how_ its limiting; how it is disadvantageous (though, if he can change the excluded group at will, I wouldn't think the limitation should be any greater in value than X2 END and X2 time, since he can effectively define 'only right handed people,' then use it a second time for 'only left handed people', since that's what it takes to give him "full use" of the power. I offered "selective" half-heartedly as an appeasement for those who see nothing but the "advantage" of this Limitation. Honestly, I have a feeling that a lot of people are seeing it as "free IPE" versus the "outsiders," and that's not what it is. I don't deny that it's what the player may be trying to back into (where you here when Christopher and I and others were discussing the periodic "upside" of Disadplications? Sometimes it happens. It's the GM's job to see that it does not consistently become something that it wasn't bought to be. And hugh: if I have time tonight; in all honesty, I don't have time to read your post, but I remain quite interested. Duke

Well, yes. However, I felt it a fairly safe assumption that he wasn't going to set up an image without at least one person to view it.

You shouldn't trust them. They have most of the thumbs.

Serious question--- I'm putting that out there because I already know it doesn't sound like it. I've been hearing, on-and-off, for my entire life "save the rainforest" and "give to these various charities that are defending the rainforest." My question is this: Are there any organizations that are collecting money to _buy_ it? I mean really. It seems like over the decades enough money has been raised for various factions of saving the rainforest to have made serious in-roads here. Start buying it up a few acres at a time and put great big GTFO signs on it. No-- I'm not looking to start a shouting match; I'm not looking a list of ten thousand reasons of why it can't be done. Buying up land seems to be working out okay for anyone else who wants to control it, so I've just been kind of wondering. Google wasn't much help on this, or I'd have left you folks alone. Duke

As I said above, everyone is being reasonable with their arguments-- so before that changes, I'd like to make a motion that we stop offering examples before someone on either side takes it the wrong way. We can accept that overall, information is going to come to us in one way or another. If the PCs are totally stumped and the GM sends in Captain Cluebat with a small hint-- well, the PCs have done _nothing_ for that except to get stumped for far too long. No Skill Roll; No PER roll; no "spend your earned XP on this particular 'clue magnet' power. If a PC is reading four different news articles and realizes that there is a hidden connection-- perhaps even has enough information to _know_ what the connection is-- again: he doesn't have to pay for that-- well, other than paying attention, of course. To borrow the Lex Luthor example above- why would he have to have a detect if he's using a death ray to see who is Kryptonian (sp?) but _not_ need a detect to fire off a pistol to see who is bullet proof? Up till now (so far as I know), none of us have required a "Detect: how is he affected?" build to go along with any power whatsoever. So far as I know, none of us has ever denied telling a player "he's hit! It doesn't look like it did any serious damage, but it must have really hurt, because he's staggering a bit and seems to be trying to shake off a dazed head. He might be Stunned!" because they didn't have the detect--- crap! Now I'm doing it! So let's pull this back to where it started: Hugh's VPP suggestion would very much cover what he's trying to do with the ability to select a specific group who can and can't see the image. Worst case scenario? Pull "Selective" out of auto fire and make him pay for that. That seems to have a built-in "only hits who I want it to" already. I'm not the biggest fan of VPP, to be honest. It's like giving up a specific set of powers to say "I have every power!", which brings up serious balance issues (yes; believe it or not, even _I_ have balance concerns. They're just not as intense as those the majority seem to have), but I will let the occasional small pool slide when tightly defined and with some respectable limitations on it. In this case, something limiting it specifically to casting illusions. _HOWEVER_ as mentioned above, do _not_ let it become something else. Specifically, don't let it become IPE (unless, if using the pool, he builds it with IPE). Upthread, I suggested the idea of "everyone looking at it seems _something_-- a clear suggestion that something is going on-- they just don't see the image itself. (remember when you turned off a CRT in a dark room? It was still lit, but it was lit _black_, sort of.... ) Now before I realized that he could switch who could and couldn't see the image, I was thinking a +/- 0. Given that is able to switch it, I still don't think I'd charge more than +1/4 assuming he was _unable_ to make an image that _everyone_ could see. If he _is_ able to make the image available to anyone with eyes / sight perception of some sort, then perhaps +1/2, or model it along the lines of "Variable Advantage." In this case, reverse the way it works and call it "Variable Limitation, " which would _reduce_ in value based on just how broad a group he could broadcast to at any given time, etc. But that can get complicated. And again-- worst case scenario, cram "Selective" on there (which I don't think requires a Detect, either, but does what the original question seemed to be after) and call it a day.

I can't give credibility to the idea of requiring a detect because you might use a power to determine something about someone, at least not until every bit of STR and every HTH (normal) attack is mandatory bought with "Detect : Glass Jaw" and swords are required to take "detect: thickness of flesh" because it's quite possible to use these attacks to determine these things. I do not say that the arguments are not reasoned and well-thought; some folks have put some thought into their opinions, but at the end of the day, all powers will ultimately allow a character to "detect" who is or is not affected. "I zap him with my lightning bolt." He drops. I detected that he is one of those people who can be hurt by lightning. "

My folks are from Somerset County in Maine (no; not Skow-town). I don't know when they left (obviously some time before I was born ) By the time I was born, my father's accent had just fallen off, period. Eventually they left Alaska (before I did, in fact) and landed in New Mexico (got too old to shovel snow and plant cabbage, I suppose, or too frail to donate that much blood to the mosquitos back home), where they lived for decades. A couple of years ago, they moved to Georgia (to the city where I work, actually) for a number of health and family-related reasons. As they approach their 80s-- having left Maine, never to return, in their late teens-- my father has no accent of any kind. He could be a news caster, for Pete's sake. My mother sounds like she walked off the farm two hours ago. It just never went away..... Go figure.

The power doesn't have to detect it, I don't think. The power itself has something in it's nature that makes it only effective against a particular target or target group. In the images v colorblind example mentioned above-- the images may include lots of random obscuring activity in the image itself that, owing to the color makeup, simple is not perceived by people who are colorblind, meaning that they see the image as normal without all the conflicting chatter. Or, to use a real-world example: camouflage is useless against colorblind people. Seriously. Way back before there was a legit Air Force-- when there was only an Army Air Corps, color-blind pilots were sought out simply because camo trickery did not work on them, making hidden military targets much easier to spot. And if my cellular disruptor ray is completely negated by the Y chromosome, well all I have to do is pull the trigger: it's only going to work against females. At the risk the freely-given down votes, I think a lot of this is brought out by the most "no-filled" edition of the game to date, and built upon with examples and even conversational exchanges that encourage the idea that if an additional expense _can_ be applied, then it _must_ be applied: mechanics over SFX. Looked at another way, what is the point of taking a minor Limitation -- doesn't work against sweaty opponents-- if I then have to build a complex sensory detection system that's going to cost more than any potential savings?

Hell, let's start from the top (but we're not doing all of them tonight ) From the very first Enemies book, from the very first edition (there are not even text examples in the 1e rule book): Racoon Ankylosaur (Power armor stolen while on assignment for Viper. Not sure if that counts for your purposes) Sledge (duped into being experimented on; again: don't know if that counts) Island of Dr. Destroyer (1e version) includes only DD and villains from Enemies; no reason to re-list them Moving to Escape from Stronghold (1e version) None. (Surprise! Ripper was a retcon: original origin had him surgerized by the Viet Cong.) Now into 2e Rules book (Strangely, there are more villains caused by UNTIL than by VIPER. This may be why I don't use UNTIL even up to this very day: those guys are dangerous to have around!): Pulsar Viper's Nest: Viper Agents (five kinds) and Nest Leader, which I suppose is no surprise. Technically not Blue Jay. She just worked for them (she's another UNTIL baby) Brick. They didn't make him, but they found him in the woods, took him home, and taught him some tricks. Cheshire Cat Enemies II Pile Driver (yup. Just the one. Like three or four with UNTIL origins, though. I can't believe people fall for their crap! "We're good guys!" Yeah. Right. ) Champions Campaign Book (3e) Viper Leader (again: no surprise. Sort of a slightly upgraded Nest Leader. Well, actually-- a slightly up-graded nest leader. Only one kind of agent this time around, though) Crusader (yes: there was a Villain option for Crusader. Thanks for the trip down memory lane, because I had totally forgotten that) Dragonfly (slight retcon to his origin now includes VIPER agents that caused the accident that changed his life) I would like to point out that Enemies: the International File has _no_ villains created by Viper involvement. It _does_ have villains created because of UNTIL involvement, however. You will find this same thing in Enemies: Villainy Unbound. I'm telling you, UNTIL has _no_ place in a decent civilized world, and I suddenly remember why so many of our early heroes were _hunted_ by UNTIL: it was clear they were devious, UN-funded criminals bent on world domination. Enemies III Power Crusher Okay, it doesn't seem like it, as short as this list is, but I've just re-read through a _lot_ of books to get this far. I'm going to bed. More if I find time. I would like to point out just how interesting it is that the original Champions villainous organization didn't see a lot of play at all in the early stuff. I guess they just couldn't compete with UNTIL. It really wasn't until the 4e sourcebook that they assumed their rightful place as UNTIL's equally-dangerous rivals.

You know, you might be on to something! It had never really occurred to me before: having heard it so much from so many people on british shows and such I just thought "it's got to be some kind of accent," but it might not be! There just might be a really disproportionately high number of brits that lisp. Something to consider, I suppose. Outside of Canada, it's spelled "Y'all." "Yawl" is what cats do. And I never minded "eh." I felt it was an important part of cultural identity or something. And I don't know if it's an accent or not, since in my travels, I've noticed that the only people in the US who _don't_ use Y'all are white yankees and most asians. At that point, it's pretty much moved from accent to an actual word. I have no idea when it will be in the dictionary, though. I mean, it took "ain't" longer than I've been alive before it dropped in. I have a buddy in British Columbia. He's been retired for a decade now. When I had occasion to call him during working hours, he would always chuckle when he picked up the phone. I commented once that he must have the greatest job in the world (and being in wildlife management / wild resource management, be probably did, really). He told me that both of the women who answered the phone were in love with the accent. It went a long way toward explaining why only one person in the office ever put me on hold. The two ladies would just say "oh, he's tied up for just a bit; he'll be available shortly if you would like to wait." Then they'd just start asking me random questions. I'll say this about a Georgia accent-- any of them, really (there's like four distinct ones, with rural variants): they're contagious as hell. I'm not even _from_ here originally (born and raised in Circle, Alaska), but by god you'd never know it now! I have no idea how long it would take to lose it at this point. I recall (before I got married) dating a beautiful woman from Michigan. Man, I always had the _best_ time when she was around.... anyway, I took her to a local on-the-marsh seafood joint one night as she'd never had fresh shrimp, fresh oysters, or fresh a lot of other water meat. She ordered a combo and the waitress asked her if she wanted her shrimp fried or boiled. My date looked back and said "excuse me?" Fried or boiled. "Shrimp are _hairy_?!" Blank stare from the waitress (and from me, for that matter). "I'm sorry, Honey; I don't follow...?" "Bald, please! I'll take them bald! Just make sure they're cooked." Right then it hit the waitress and me both, and we just howled. "No, Honey-- not bald! Do you want them peeled and battered and sautéed, or just dropped into a pot of hot water?" The lights came on. "Oh! You mean [ and let me see if I can get this right] Boiy--yuld." which set us to laughing all over again-- not unkindly, mind you: it was just "boiy-yuld" reminded us of what had just transpired. "Right. Would like them fried or boiled?" "I'd like to try both; just make sure they're not hairy." [for non-southerners: it's _not_ "bald." It's very subtle, but more like "bold", though it's drawn with the slightest "hitch" of a change in the "o" sound where the "i" sound would be heard: more like changing softly from a long O to a short o right in the middle of the word. Now you know. ]

Shazam. Again. And again and again and again and pretty much since I bought it. At this point, it has become the movie I have seen more times than any other movie, to include Adventures In Babysitting (personal favorite).

Thanks, Tribble. I've learned something today. I no longer think that the british accent that sounds like a speech impediment is the most irritating one there is. Sadly, I can't tell you anything about that accent, accept that there was a british host on Penn and Teller for a while-- he had it. Jonathan something, was it? It's almost indistinguishable from the way a person with a hare lip speaks: L's and R's become W's, etc. But it's nowhere near as bad as whatever that guy singing was slinging. Gad, but that grates.....

Let me just step up there and fix that. (bed)

-22, but it was owing to seriously screwed up understanding of "Linked" on the part of the GM at the time. I built the characters _solely_ to demonstrate that "this can't possibly be the way they intended it to work!" Short version: a set of bricky powers and Flight, all Linked all back and forth to each other in some seriously heinous ways. Out of the 100 "gimme" points (2e), I spent seventy eight and was _done_. I then took the character and mopped the floor with the rest of the party in short order, just to demonstrate "this can't be right!" So _technically_, negative 22. However, even at the time, I was well-aware the this build was not remotely in line with the rules.

When we're shelling out eighty bucks a pop for all thirty-nine volumes of the Seventh Edition, you are _really_ going to regret having said that out loud....

I _swear_ to you that I am _not_ typically this pedantic, but I was laughing hysterically when I read that read sentence. With your permission, I would like to offer the following correction: Actually, Robert A Heinlein's juvenile novel "Have Space Suit Will Travel" had as bad guys a group of leftover Nazis trying to regroup on the moon. Seriously: I am _not_ that pedantic! It's simply that only through the offering of the alternate wording could I explain just why the original phrasing slated me with the mad giggles (though I admit sleep deprivation may have played some small part in my reaction. ) "Hans! Vuld chu like to choin me on ze moon?" "Fritz, ze riech ist collapsin_g_! Vat vuld ve du on ze moon?!" [melodiously] "Ve cuht be baaaaaad guuuuuyyyss......" (yeah... I think I'm going to bed now.....) (thanks, Amorcka!)

To quote Phillip Fry: "Give several examples. " (Mostly because I've only seen--or even heard of- the one)

Missed that phrase right there on the first read-- as noted, I really wasn't "free" to do much. Going from there, again, presuming the 5e material quoted above applies-- that part where not being visible to all aspects of sight-- it's a -0 / +0, whichever you want to call it, at least to my way of thinking. The reason I believe this is because it is _not_ IPE. I think we all agree that it can't be IPE unless the character _buys_ IPE. So it's not a "no one knows there's an image going on" sort of thing: there's still SFX of some kind giving it away. I would suggest that if the player is not willing to define those SFX that the GM do so for him.

Well if the op is using 5e rules, then we already have a model: not visible to all aspects of sight is - 1/4.

I don't have an issue with it as a Limitation; there may be those times when it would be most helpful to have someone else see it, but there's no way they will. But maybe that's me. However, it wont be IPE unless he buys it: there should be some percievable thing going on, even if everyone else is seeing only a will-o-wisp or a murky gray cloud or something. Though I have to wonder (and I'm no where I can check) does the current rule set (or at least the one your using) state that by default images are visible to all aspects of sight? They give off heat and all that good stuff? Because if it does _not_ say that, I would assume that they were only visible to normal sight for the species that was casting it. If it mentions adders or what-have-you for making it visible to "other" sights, then right then we know it's neither and advantage or a limitation: you've just chosen a different "frequency," for lack of a better word. So yeah: I can see it being a limitation, so long as you let him know upfront that it is _not_ IPE, but I don't see it as a really big one if it's just different wavelengths. When it comes to things like "only those of Clan M'Bufu or" only clerics of Thor"- I might go as far as - 1/2. Different wavelengths? Unless something on the rules specifies that the default wavelength is limited in some way, not more than - 1/4. However, something that clearly reduces the utility (I can use it indiscriminately one anyone), I just can't justify charging more for that. I guess it boils down to a "letter of the law VS spirit of the law" kind of thing for me.

That explains a lot, actually. I've read Living Steel (and thought I might possibly enjoy it, honestly, but as I've noted elsewhere, from the time I first found Champions way back in 82 or so, pretty much every game I ever wanted to play, I just stuck on Champions running gear, with mods where appropriate). I remember that I found the potential complexity of Living Steel to put me very much in mind of Aftermath (again, with all the options on)-- the guy who ran our short-lived Aftermath campaign was-- and I understand you have know way of knowing this, but if you don't mind, just accept that when it comes from me, it's really saying something-- an absolute gun _nut_. Not just the "Oooh manly noise make dead thing" aspect, but the ballistics, etc. Which meant that if there was an option with regard to combat, it was _on_. All the multiple hit location charts (standing / sitting / prone / left / right / half cover / quarter-cover- blah blah blah--- d100 hit locations, section armor per hit location, damaged based on velocity / cross-section / mass of projectile--- you name it. Mostly, it just made sure that five of his friends never, ever wanted to play Aftermath ever again. It's funny. That was like.... forty years ago? We were buddies; pals-- roommates, for about six months. Without kidding, I can honestly say that after the prematurely-fizzled Aftermath campaign, I didn't even like him much. Still don't like him much. In a _bizarre_ bit of a twist, here about ten years ago, my sister-in-law married him. (They're divorced now. Oddly, they are _both_ serial romantics) Hadn't seen him in thirty years prior to the wedding. Still didn't like him, and it all seemed to revolve around just how painful that damned game was.... life's funny. People are worse.

What the frickenitty-frack is that god-awful grating concoction of an accent?! Tribble wins, period, just on that gotta-be-made-up accent alone! No society could speak like that on purpose! They'd get super-sharp pencils and jab out each other's eardrums as an act of compassionate mercy if that was real....

As amusing as color-coded ninjas sounds, I've got to vote for Iron Sky, too.