Duke Bushido

Clearly. But I also think we have both already acknowledged that. In an unrelated question: Is it as difficult for you as it is for me than we can only quote each others responses, but not the quotes to which we are responding? I find it makes tracking a particular point difficult. For one, to create an image perceivable to the target, neither is relevant to the mechanic I prefer. The image / mental illusion _appears_; the target perceives it, period, no matter what your results are. Going by (and I am sorry i do not have the "quote of the quote; I guess the question above was more related than I thought it would be), you stated (and forgive the lack of direct quotes) that unless the mental illusion overcame the taget's EGO, then no image is created (or perhaps perceived? I don't recall). I disagree with that. I prefer the old mechanic that the image is _there_, and perceivable, and that it falls to the character's INT to help him realize that what he is seeing is not real. That is all. My attack _worked_, even if it didn't get through defenses. Your suggestion of "making my PER roll means I don't see the illusion," however, means the illusion didn't happen. We could argue otherwise (I'm not going to), but if it exists entirely in your perception, and you don't perceive it-- well the only reason that makes sense is that it didn't happen. My power simply didn't activate, period (in spite of the END expenditure). In my games (as I use the older mechanic), it can get rather costly very quickly to increase the effectiveness of illusion-type powers: you have to buy enough to get yet another ten times the INT of the target. Allowing a PER roll to simply nullify your power (you stated, if I recall, that making the PER roll means that the Mental Illusion effectively did not happen. The target never got the image at all. The feel of "Spe-yang! Bounced off his armor!" and "your power didn't go off" are radically different. I have done everything I can to explain that, to the point of posting examples. I do not wish to come off as coy or smarmy, but at this point, if you don't understand what I am saying then we need to just drop it because you never will understand it. Suffice it to say that it is something that is damned important to me and my players, in spite of the fact that a number of other people flat don't get it. And that's fine. But if you're not going to get it, and I'm not going to do without it, then there is just no point in us continuing to discuss it. Yes; precisely. He would have to be intelligent enough to remain detached enough or practical enough to 1) take the time to think that and 2) realize that this one does not. Intelligence. The point of the old mechanic was that someone could potentially create an illusion so completely convincing as to at least momentarily overwhelm rational thought. And this is found in the source material as well. I wish I knew more about comics, as I'm pretty sure that I could come up with more than one example, but I remember Jim used to have comics lying about, and there was some X-men title that featured people wearing the old black-and-yellow costumes. There was a long-haired red woman (alien? Mutant? X-men; probably a mutant) who could create illusions that were based on her opponent's nightmares or something like that. I recall at one point she created a pair of giant snakes and her opponent turned tail and ran. There is absolutely no doubt that his overwhelmed his Intelligence, simply because any moment of thought would have led to questions like "why are there giant snakes here at the docks? Why are they floating in mid air? Why are they just outlines of snakes with fog and mist passing through them? " and who knows how many other questions, any one of which (why don't they smell like guano?) would have cleared the whole situation right up. For me-- again, for me-- the new PER roll mechanic turns Images into hypnotism: you have to _want_ to believe it, or it won't work. Seems like a lot of points to spend on a power that more than likely isn't going to do anything against a super (though I suppose it might work better in Heroic-level stuff) If we continue to grant that EGO is, at least in part, force of will, then yes; it does. Was the hero too clever to be deceived, or was his resolve so unflinching that he didn't see the illusion at all? Was the illusionist able to get his message to the rest of the team, of were his years of training all a waste, as he could not penetrate the minds of is compatriots? I ask this because we know there are uses _besides_ "attack attack attack" for illusions. If, as you suggested, failing to overcome EGO to a "convinced me it's real" level means he didn't see it at all, then there's a very obvious shortcoming to using this power as anything _other_ than an attack: "Here; I will show you the layout of Balakar's keep, and the secret passages within." "Oh; that's amazing! Quick; memorize this as best you can!" "Amazing. What's this here; is that a spike trap?" "What the Hell are you people talking about? I can't see _crap_!" An illusion (of any stripe) doesn't have to be convincing to be useful. Nobody thought there was really a six-inch princess dictating a message into a robot. It was still useful, though. But had it been a mental illusion that had to overcome EGO in the way you suggest, well it was a pretty crappy illusion. No one would have seen it, and Luke would be on his way back from Taschi Station with power convertors. Of course, his aunt an uncle would still be alive, so it's not all bad. I'm not sure if you're mixing my metaphors for me, or sort of making my point. I'm going to have to pass on this one. Sorry, my friend. So 1982, then. That's when we got the mechanic to create Light Illusions, which everyone could see, regardless of whether they believed it was real or not. Our sticking point-- me and you, that is-- seems to be that you believe Mental Illusions override the target's senses. I would, out of curiosity, like to ask to assess, as accurately as you can, if you believed that when you were playing the older editions as well. I ask because 4e, there wasn't even a _suggestion_ that they worked this way. The target saw an image in his mind, and if he was intelligent enough, he knew it wasn't real. We've all seen an image in our mind and knew it wasn't real-- memories, daydreams, etc. That moment when you are just snapping to from an especially vivid dream-- that briefest _instant_ when you're going who-wha--where the Hell am I what's happening?! right before you notice just how badly you need to pee? _That's_ the almost point. Nothing overrode your senses, per se: your brain almost attacked you successfully, getting almost your entire INT score. Or maybe we dream different, too. I cede easily, with the note that as long as I can remember, I've never had a dream that involved scent, warmth, or pleasant touch. However, I'm not going to pretend I'm the yardstick by which humanity is measured, either. The original text of Mental Illusions:

Gah.. I don't have Chris G's memory for this sort of thing, but once upon a time there was an advantage called "Selectable." I _think_ it was an auto fire advantage, but it may have been usable in other ways as well. I am afraid I wasted _way_ too much time in the Super Images game today to have the time to look now. I would think you could cobble that into something reasonably appropriate. I mean, when you look at the Multipower option-- that is, compare the cost of the power with the advantage, all by itself, then the cost of the multipower featuring the cost of Control, then the cost slot with and the slot without, you can sort of see that it's not that much different from just deciding that Advantage X has Y value, and lets me do little more than recreate the end results of a multipower, so why not? Look at it another way: we had a framework for Elemental Control. Not it's just a modifier: Unified. Why not run it the other way?

It was the dinosaurs, wasn't it? I mean, when I first saw it, I thought "meh. random over-anatomized Barbie clone in spandex, posing in the water--- then I saw the dinosaurs. That made it awesome! Same. My search-fu is weak, Dude. Don't sweat it. We have similar opinions on down voters, it seems. I mean, I don't wish them ill, but I do wish them the spine to explain themselves. And I promise you, I don't do it. Now I have _never_ played this game before (it's a time thing, usually), but the dinosaurs were so damned cool I wanted to take a shot at it. Moving forward: "General Cribbs, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard." The words hit the general like a boot in the gut. It's one thing to be randomly called out, but when the President of the United States stands up just so he can more cleanly point a finger directly at you in the middle of a locked-door planning session.... well, it's hard not to take that personally. Cribbs took a moment to consider his next statement, and to make sure the humiliation he felt was securely locked and under control. Finally, he spoke. "Mr. President, it is with all due respect that I am going to go back over everything that was said here. I want to make it perfectly clear to---" he caught himself, and corrected almost completely without a hitch-- "everyone in this room just why this is not just a vital proposal, but a necessary one." He sat, unflinching, waiting to be shut down or allowed to continue. "All right, Cribbs," the President acquiesced, almost smugly, "let's hear just why we need yet another Flag Suit." The most powerful man in the free world mistook the half-second of silence while the General framed his thoughts as a sign that perhaps the General himself had lost faith in the whole ridiculous plan: "No; _please_, General! "he oozed sarcastic obsequiousness. "You _have_ the floor." 'One day,' Cribbs thought to himself, 'that little Ivy League snot is going to realize that not a single one of those halfwits that voted for him is going to lift a finger-- let alone a gun-- to defend him should we be overrun. One day he will figure out that the people in this room-- the people he sits here and patronizes and insults before going on television to brag about our lack of need for a defense budget-- are the only people here willing to fight to keep his dumb ass alive.' He sighed, wishing almost whole-heartedly that this was that day. 'No. Not yet. If this works-- God help us, if either he or Congress one signs off on this, then that day may never have to come.' Finally, he spoke aloud: "Mr. President, as you know, our position in world politics is laughable, and has been since the War for American Independence. Tradition blames this on our getting our start as a free nation by aligning ourselves with France. I disagree, of course: without a wealthy European ally at that time, our independence would not have even been possible. However, the United States of America has never really managed to rise to a place of prominence in the world political or economic theaters, and our prolonged policy of isolation has done nothing to improve our position." "Explain yourself, General!" snapped someone from behind him. "We have stayed out of every event that shaped the world from the time we gained independence. It doesn't take a scholar to note that every single participant in World War 1 today banks on the fact that they rose to the occasion to stop war, to stop evil. That today they all enjoy the technological and manufacturing principles developed under the strains of that war. Then again in World War 2: we stayed out of it. The Russians stopped the Nazis as they marched toward Asia, and they followed the German retreat all the way into the heart of Germany itself. We ignored cries from our eldest and even our first ally, first as the Nazis tore down their infrastructures, then again when the Russians came through planting flags. Mr. President, the United States of America, Australia, and in their own unique way Scotland-- once all under the rule of the mightiest empire ever to live, are today the last two-and-a-half nations on the globe that speak English." "That's not entirely true!" the President smirked. "I think if you'll check, the Canadians speak english--" "Yes; the border states of Canadia speak _some_ english! And why is that? Did anyone in the Free States of Canadia speak English before 1962? No! They did not. They _learned_ English, en masse, in 1963, for the sole purpose of taunting and jeering at us until 1969, when we were forced to admit that empire building was not our forte, and that our prolonged sieged was going nowhere. The last free people of Eastern France-- our first ally, for the love of all that's just-- sailed across an ocean just to _give_ weapons to Canadia as a retribution for our completely ignoring their pleas during not one, but THREE separate invasions! "And what did Canadia do with them? Tell me! What did Canadia do with the cutting-edge military hardware that was -given_ to them, without asking, by our former ally? They made fools of us with them, that's what they did!" No one spoke. Every face was looking down, protected against eye contact. Everyone in this room was alive during the Expansionist Wars. Everyone remembered how the Canadians, a people without even a military, at that time, had sent volunteers armed with beautiful and fascinating weapons, routed the Americans and their brass-and-wood cap-and-ball weaponry at every skirmish. Canadia had no military, but had sent food stuffs and wealth and engineers to the allies in both World Wars, and had been invited to play on the world stage. She gained new technologies and manufacturing techniques, became a world leader, and today dominates the western half of the globe. Everyone in this room was powerful and wealthy, at least by American standards. And every one one of them knew that when they left this meeting, they would ride to their homes in chauffeur-driven limousines of various Canadian makes. No one of worth wanted to be caught in one of the open-wheeled,smoke belching, steam-driven American monstrosities. "No one? No one at all? They _THREW THEM AT US! That's right; pretend you don't know! Pretend you don't know that in 1968 the Prime Minister of Canadia decided that the United States of America was such a militaristic joke that he ordered the construction of over one thousand trebuchets, and on Christmas Day, 1968, began the Twelve Day Siege, throwing a million or more tons of technology-- weapons, assembly lines, massive computer banks, tanks, cars, even maglev train cars!-- on the camps of American soldiers, desperately trying to hold the territories they had captured during the war--" his voice had crescendoed, and here it snapped; flattened. He spat the next few words-- "All twelve thousand feet of it." They all knew it was true. In years of siege, at the cost of nearly two million American lives, and almost seven hundred Canadian lives, the United States of America had managed to push their northern border less than seven miles into the nation of Canadia. "We are a joke, _gentlemen_" he stressed hard on that last word, knowing that each of these assembled individuals lived as high and dandy aristocrats on nothing but the last of the wealth of the United States. There was little left that wasn't silver or coal. The Aztecs... Oh, the Aztecs.... Once, there was no serious trouble between the US and Azteka. Once disputes were settled between men, as often as not with a revolver against an Aztec spear. Those were glory days, then. American superiority. The Aztecs were welcome to use the river, but never to cross it. Then the gold. When the word got out that Gold had been discovered in California, well the Aztecs wanted it, too. Upward they came, as an army-- even recruiting the Reds straight off the reservations, marrying them into tribe after tribe..... The gold in California, the copper in Nevada... America had been unable to defend even its own lands. The Atecs left, of course, but not until the metals were gone. Some stayed, and their cities were dangerous places, the residents declaring them to be conquered trophies for the nation of Azteka. No American would admit it, even though he knew it was true. There never had been a reason for them to leave: with no wealth to draw American settlers westward and no American interests to defend-- and in the twentieth century the massive influx of commie Chinese trying to take land for who knows what reason-- and the only force fighting against these Asian invaders? The stinking Aztec invaders! Finally, tiring of Canadia's demand that they do something to stem the tide of Aztec migrants sneaking into Canadia through US soil, the government very quietly ceded everything west of the Rockies to Azteka. It didn't stay quiet for long, though. "How about it, Gentlemen? Can't say anything? Then answer me this: How many Americans does it take to change a light bulb? Or this: Did you hear about the American Submarine? It's got screen doors! Why does the new American Navy use glass bottom boats?!" He began to froth, the muscles in his neck tightening to the point that his starched collar was restricting bloodflow from his purpling face. "What the HELL is wrong with you?! Why is this okay with you?! We are the absolute most hated nation on the face of this earth! Those that don't hate us just point and laugh at how ridiculous it is to see a third world county try so very hard to play on the international scene. What do we do? We try to _buy_ respect?! With _what_?! Our reparations to Canadia have cost us the oil reserves of Alaska! The Aztecs have taken our precious metals! We gave them a fifth of our continental holdings just because they were doing a better job defending it against people who had to come here in ships! This is lunacy--" "And _your_ suggestion" interrupted the President, who had, amidst this shaming session, finally found both his voice and his arrogance, "is yet another Flag Suit?! Are you just plain _daft_, Old Man?!" he sneered, hungrily. Someone would pay for making him feel shame, no matter how briefly it had been. Tell me, _General_" the ice in his voice told Cribb with crystal clarity that when this meeting was over, he would be general no more "do you not remember the _stupidity_ of the Flag Suit Wars? Every nation on earth was having super-powered individuals popping up all over the place-- everyone but _us_, here at home! Suddenly, every nation had dozens or even hundreds of super beings, and to a country the various nations of the world selected the most powerful of their supers to be wrapped in a flag and trotted around like ponies! Wars were almost a thing of the past-- disagreements were settled in the Warzone, on global television, Flag Suit against Flag Suit. Suddenly, all you needed was a super-powered individual, and they could be found _anywhere_! Anywhere, General, except right here in the United States of America. You think you've heard all the American jokes? You think we _haven't_?! Remember this one? That comedian back in the seventies, the Australian guy, whatever his name was-- Why don't Americans have super humans? Too stupid to mutate! Or the Scottish guy-- 'because you can't have an industrial accident when you don't have any industry!. Yeah; we've heard them all. And what was the military's answer to the super deficit? Flag Suits! You idiots started training agents to _fake_ super powers! You idiots built gadgets and clunky gizmos and machinery and painted flags on it and said "Look! We have supers! Hell, we have so many that we had to pick ten of them to wear flag suits!" Then what did you do? You put them into the goddamned Warzone, like you were betting on territories with poker chips--" "Bullspit!" The general was livid. "That was all _your_ doing! Every last bit of --" "I was barely a kid, General; you have a lot of--" "You and others like you! Spoiled little aristocratic dipshits who decided that these poor bastards-- meant do to nothing more than be displayed, or maybe filmed doing super things-- were suddenly commodities with which you could win land or wealth and you even got a bonus blood sport! All you sick bastards did was make us more the laughing stock of the world, add another layer of failure to our legacy, and make sure the rest of the world branded us as sadistic slavers, never to be allowed back on the worlds stage. Those people were willing to live their lives as frauds, separated from their families forever, just to try and get a small amount of respect for their countrymen. You aristocratic children might just as well have murdered them." "So what? What's your plan now, General? Yet another Flag Suit? No one wants to play with us anymore; don't you remember, Old Man? You _just_ finished saying that, Grandpa." Cribbs steadied himself. He counted his breaths. He searched consciously for a song in tempo with his pulse. When he calmed down, he spoke again. "We found one." "Found one _what_, General?" "We found a super human." "Oh _good_... "the President rolled his eyes. "What kind of sham gadgets have you built for this one? Or will he just explode when you kick him?" Rage. Rage tore through Cribbs again-- jokes about people who were murdered as nothing more than gambling wagers. His own son had been amongst the original Flag Suits. "This one " he modulated through clenched teeth "is real." "Great. That doesn't help us, unless he wants to defect to the poorest county on earth, does it?" More anger. How could he speak so glibly about poverty while wearing a suit that cost more that Cribbs would earn in a lifetime? "THIS ONE " he caught himself-- "is _real_. And from right here; born in Pickett, Virginia." A solid silence fell onto the room. It seemed that even breathing had stopped. "Really?" asked the President, earnestly. "You found a real super, here in the US?" "We did. Almost by accident." "What can he do? Can he take the Warzone? No one fights very hard for Cambodia these days---" The painful ringing in his ears told Cribbs that his blood pressure had finally gone too high. He was going to die. When he didn't feel anything he thought might be a heart attack, he began to turn. There had been a noise-- a loud explosion. He turned into a cloud of acrid gun smoke. From the corner of his eye, he could see a shocked look growing across the President's face as he looked down at his chest, where a stain of red began to grow rapidly. The Secret Service men flanking him leapt away, looking for any cover should the shooter have another round prepared. Cribbs finished turning and saw a giant of a man calmly re-loading an empty chamber in his brass revolver. The man was a Secret Service agent; one of two placed behind the Joint Chiefs to ensure the President's safety from his own advisors. Cribbs stared, incredulously. The man shrugged, and reholstered his weapon. "My father was a Flag. He had a couple of gimmicks that would let him climb walls and leap really high. Bullet proof costume. The President at the time put him in the Warzone against a flying flamer. He wasn't settling a dispute. He was "negotiating" a vacation in Spain. My father never had a chance. I met the President, just before my father had the "honor" of "defending the US from our enemies." He wasn't any different from this putz." He nodded toward the not-quite dead President gasping on the floor. "Hell, none of them nave been...." "They will kill you when we leave here" Cribbs stated flatly. "Can you restore my father's honor? Can you make our country and our people something the rest of the world could be inspired by?" "I believe so; yes." "Then it's worth it. If it's okay, I'd like to hear your plan." Cribbs turned to the Joint Chiefs. "Gentlemen, we have found the fist U.S. born super powered human. Not only that, but she is unique in all the world. She is the first known superhuman who can travel through time. We have been training and coaching here for seven years now-- since just before that ass" he jerked a thumb behind him " won the election. We believe that she is now ready. Our plan is complex, but we have the best historians, the best sociologists and the best civil psychologists in this country working with her, and on the plan." "So what is it that she is meant to do?" "She can travel through time, and evidently as far as she wants to, in either direction. She can stay as long as she wants as well. This is tailor-made for our plan. We have identified key moments in history that we, as a country, mismanaged. Her mission is to correct as many of those moments as possible. With any luck, she can place the United States of America in the position that we know it deserves: We can make it a major power in the world; a safe haven for the weak and downtrodden. We can make-- _she_ can make-- us into an industrial powerhouse with the wealth and the means to defend ourselves and others. And she is committed to doing this. She shares our dreams for this nation. She will correct our mistakes, and guide us to become better people than we have ever been in the past. The plan becomes complex as every action will have an effect on the next action, requiring constant changes and updates to the plan. After every mission, only she will remember the previous condition; only she will remember the plan. She will have to track us all down after each change, and train _us_ in what the world was like before. We will have to restudy the then-history, and plan again. She claims that she is immortal, and has been doing this already for nearly six hundred subjective years. I don't know; we have no way to prove that. But gentlemen, I believe her. I believe in her motivation, and I believe in her aspirations to make the United States into the same vision she learned from her father as a child." "How can you trust her? What is her true motivation? Why would we think her vision is any better than what we have now?" "Because," General Cribbs began, his voice soft, hard, and solemn "she learned it from her father, and he learned it from me." "Why would she want to do this for hundreds of years when any other country on earth would give her anything she ever wanted if she really is a time traveler? Who the Hell is she, anyway?" The questions poured in. The general looked away, over his audience, then his gaze wandered around the room."Her motivation is the desire to both create the society that her father hoped his own efforts might create. Her desire is to right his senseless death, not through retribution, but through prevention. Her father, she says, died in the Warzone when she was nine years old, and he died for absolutely no righteous reason.." Behind him, an impossibly tall woman, nearly seven foot in her heeled boots, strode in proudly, wearing a costume that appeared to made of material salvaged from a flag--- closer inspection revealed it to be material salvaged from a Flag Suit. A bodice covered her when the fabric ran short. "Her name," his voice cracked with emotion, "is Rebecca Leigh Cribbs. But she prefers that we think of her as American Glory."

There is a distinct difference between the two: Having to override INT with Mental Illusions: From the attacker's point of view: I am a masterful mentalist who has successfully implanted the image in my opponent's mind. I have no been flat-out denied the use of my power. From the defender's point of view: Good Gods! A dragon! (if the attacker gets his pool high enough, of course). If he does not, then it goes something like "Very clever. But I won't fall for your deceptions! Take that, vile sorcerer!" Having to override EGO to actually make the illusion in the first place: From the attacker's point of view (should the villain's pool be too low to overwhelm the target's Ego: What? I cast mental illusion! Why the Hell is it not working? I have wasted spell points three times for _nothing_! From the target's POV, should the dice pool not be sufficient to overwhelm his Ego: What's that guy doing? Why is he waving his arms around and chanting like that? Shouldn't something be happening? Well, I'm not going to let this opportunity go by; I hear he's a powerful illusionist. I hope he doesn't try casting an illusion into my mind.... From the target's POV should the dice pool overwhelm his Ego: Crap! Another dragon! The absolute war-game results of either are : fooled by illusion / not fooled by illusion. If I wanted to play a war-game, I'd be happy with it. I am _not_ a mathematician, so I'm not sure how mathematicians feel about this. Is it "the final number is identical; it doesn't matter how you arrived at it."? If that's the case I can see why it wouldn't bother them: we can keep playing Taxes and Textbooks and remove all context or setting pretenses and have the exact same good time, right? It's all about that final number. Even as a non-mathemetician, however, I completely believe that some formulae are inherently more elegant or more beautiful than others; I believe the details of the process are equally-- and sometimes more-- important. Those details are where the fluff comes from. Those are the points that define the story because those points are what is _actually_ going on, moment to moment. Those are the parts that separate RPGs from war-games, period. Wargames are simple and dull: no matter how complex or complicated the mechanics, it all boils down that final number without regard for how you got there. No matter how beautiful the miniatures, you could replace them with a handful of nuts and washers scattered across the table, or even poker chips-- some marked with X; some with O. And it doesn't affect _any_ part of the game at all, because it's not about the story at all. I would think that, particularly as I know I'm not the only writer on this board, I would find at least one other person who understands the value of the process itself. So, up until 1982? Or 1985? I'm not going to say you are wrong, because your points are all valid. But, if I may, _to me_, they do not work _quite_ that way: the attacker "gets what he paid for:" the ability to put the image in a target's mind. It then-- _after_ the successful implantation of the illusion-- becomes a contest of his skill at creating an convincing illusion against the target's ability to realize he is being deceived. I find the original mechanic much better represents how I see the power working. Is that because I've used it that way from the get-go? I straight-up cannot answer that and be assured that I am being completely impartial. I can say, with reasonably impartiality, that I do _prefer_ the way it was introduced because at no point can the mechanic be interpreted as "your power doesn't work:" the illusion _is_ in the target's mind, and he is aware of it. a couple of questions- and this is just a thought exercise; I'm not going to pursue it very deeply here simply because I haven't the time. Why does a Mental Illusion automatically work against all five senses, yet a Light Illusion / Image have to be bought per sense? Does Captain Bloodhound get to use his "targeting smell 23-" when caught in a PRE Attack? He should be able to smell when his attacker is bluffing, I would think. Personally-- and, just as you noted your opinion on how this works; I am clearly admitting that this is my own opinion-- I find the old mechanic worked a lot better at explaining it: If your image was so... forgive the word, but I've used "overwhelm" a lot lately, and it grows trite-- so dazzling as be believable-- well, under the original mechanic, it's because it was so convincing that you didn't question it. The "X times INT" made it a matter almost of an skill v skill: this image was so instantly convincing-- to you-- that it just didn't occur to you to bother investigating it: it was just another apartment building on your walk to work; you knew it was there, and this time you just happened to notice it. Gah-- I wish I could put that into better words. Let me try this: There are thousands of things that we perceive every single day and _never_ question, no matter what. We take them as real, though. For example, I have _never_ been to Europe. I have never seen a a candiru. I have never eaten brie. However, I have absolutely no doubt that all of those things exist. If I were knocked unconscious and taken to a strange new city before I awoke, and someone told me I was in the British town of -- hell... What's a british town that isn't London? Is there a Halifax? Anyway, the british town of "Not London," I'd take that as a given. Even if I woke up with a GPS in my pocket it wouldn't occur to me to question where I was for a bit. There are other things more pressing: Am I okay? Am I injured? Do I have my wallet? Where is the nearest phone or police agency? If I were swimming and attacked by the candiru in its famous fashion, I would not first roll my X-ray vision to verify that it wasn't actually some sort of alien probing device: I would---, well, from what I've heard, suffer immeasurable agony and beg for medical attention before doing _anything_ else, so this may-- no; actually, it's _not_ a bad example: it's a _great_ example! I totally believe that illusion I'm suffering to the point where something other than "fact checking" has become my number one priority. I have never eaten brie. Not once. If someone fed me condensed and sweetened milk that has sat open on the front porch in the sun for eight days and thickened just slightly and told me it was brie, I would not demand a closer look or a comparison sample. I would decide that I don't like brie, and never seek it out as long as I lived. If I _had_ eaten brie before, or even just smelled it (it's a cheese, so I am making the assumption it has a distinct smell) and been fed this stuff anyway, I still probably wouldn't question that this was brie. I would think "well this is terrible brie," and leave it at that. The point is we fool ourselves daily by deciding that something is "real enough" and take it at that. In a setting where the fantastical is ordinary, I heartily believe that we would simply do the same with more fantastical things and situations. More to the point: how many times when your players walk up to the castle do they announce "I make a perception roll to check if that's really a castle."? Captain Bloodhound can have all the smelling in the world. If he doesn't choose to use it, it's no good to him. Announcing "make a perception roll!" leads to "oh; I better use my super-scenting, as it has the best PER." Yeah, it's wrong, but we every single one of us do it, so let's just roll with the honesty of it. Any time the GM asks "was your forcefield on?" the answer is _always_ "Well, yes; of course it is!" no matter what the reality is. You're character could have just walked out of the hopper in the men's room at Home Depot; if the GM asks if your force field was on, you're going to say yes. A mechanic that goes against INT allows the attacker a chance to overwhelm the target's common sense, if only for a moment. Give the player the chance to decide "Wait! Does it _smell_ like a decomposing zombie horde?" Let him be his character. Let him make decisions for his character. Let him decide if his character is savvy enough to double-check what he's seeing. If that doesn't work-- for some reason you prefer a playerless, dice-only resolution, use any PER above .... well, a quick check says the average "high" PER in my player files is 16-, so let's say that anything over 16 becomes a modifier of some sort-- perhaps apply it directly to the INT score that must be overwhelmed. Not my bag of sticks, but again: we each prefer different things. And I look at it differently: If he is not super-smart, it should _increase_ the odds that he gets fooled. If he is super-perceptive, that should increase the odds that he figures it out, and likely decrease the time it takes him to do so, particularly if he _is_ smart enough to double-check. I agree completely. It does indeed come down to what works for the people playing the game. The current mechanic doesn't work at all for me-- possibly because almost every super I run for has at least one schtick that grants them roughly 16- or less as a perception roll, making the 4e and later version of images a complete waste of points for any villain wishing to consider it. "Sweet! this power will totally work 1.9 percent of the time!" (unless it's a flashlight, of course, in which case it will fool them into thinking there is light 100 percent of the time ) Considering Change Environment doesn't require a PER roll to "disbelieve" (sorry; that was my favorite thing to lovingly rip on in D&D. There was just something about hearing a player hastily yell "I disbelieve!" that cracked me up every time. We should build a HERO version of that. ) and everything will be one-hundred percent real one-hundred percent of the time, I think ultimately, at least in Supers, it's the far-more cost-effective method of successfully making heroes think they are sinking in quicksand: just put some quicksand there. Boom. Done. I can't find fault with that, in anyone, for any edition. Everyone has a favorite edition, regardless of which it was or even why it was their favorite. I tend to think that finding fault in that is very much the pot turning unto the kettle, hands raised defensively, shrieking "away! Begone! Get the away, Blackface-d Monstrosity!" People like what they like, and it's silly to hold it against them. The only real line I draw is when a discussion of differing opinions, like this one has become, moves to an attempt to either vilify the other opinion, or forcibly push an opinion to overrule the others. That's just jackassery. That is probably why Hugh is one of my favorite debate / discussion partners: he will carry on as long as you're willing to debate something, but I can't think of a single instance of him ever actually crossing that line. And he is exasperatingly meticulous, so if you're not careful, you might learn something about your own opinions.

It (Mental Illusions /Light Illusions/ Images / (Sounds? Didn't exist until 3e and FH, but the mechanic is the same)) was compared to INT in 2e as well. {The "dialogue" above was meant to represent a player learning the rules (and thus guessing "Ego or something"), then giving up in frustration. Sorry about that) I much prefer the idea of comparing even Mental Illusions to INT, as it suggests that the caster was skilled enough to create the illusion and place it in the mind of his target, and also that his target is clever enough to understand that it is merely a deception. Comparing it to EGO "works," mechanically, but gives a different feel: it suggests that the caster was totally unable to create the illusion in the first place, which robs him of some of his schtick. Yeah, it's a quibble: totally unimportant to tactician or the simulationist, but extremely critical to those for whom the "feel" of the game is important. (No surprise that I fall into that last camp, is it? )

Sorry, Hugh; I hit the wrong quote button and didn't get it all in one post. Mea culpa. My question is "missing since when?" If first appeared in 1982 in the 2e supplement Champions II. It used a mechanic similar too Mental Illusions, PRE Attack, etc-- compare the dice pool total to a specific characteristic of the target(s). If that number was equalled or exceeded, then the image was believable. The target multiple was based on the complexity and size of the illusion. The power was republished in 85 in the first edition of Fantasy HERO, and renamed as "Images." It used the same mechanic, with the same verbiage about when the image is or is not believable. The publishing of the spell "Sounds" added the idea of applying illusions against other senses. I do not know where else (or if) it was published prior to 4e. I do know that for some reason, in 4e, it was given a singularly unique mechanic: one which required assigning a singularly unique function to the PER roll. I can't for the life of me figure out why. And I see that as I type this, Chris has replied, so I'm going to just post this as-is because I'm really curious to see what he has to say. Duke

Then you don't remember phone alcoves at all! But yes; I understand your point. I was merely being annoyed at the "one off"perversion of a mechanic.

I am.it trying to turn it into anything. I still use the way it was introduced. Ten years later, it was rearranged and given a mechanic that appears nowhere else, and the reasons-- while we can retroactively invent as many as we want, because as humans, we are remarkablu good at that- have never really been there: if the mechanic itself was broken, then why was it left in every other case? I'm not turning into anything. I am not acknowledging cahnbgr without a valid reason. Yes they are. Now. It makes zero sense, but we can pretend that this is the way it has always been, and that the APG instructions on putting it back are actually insights on doing something wonderful and new as opposed to- well, as opposed to putting it back. No. With one different advantage. Same effect: see things that aren't there. I

Okay; my mistake. Thank you for the clarification, by the way. I _was_ parsing it correctly, it seems. It wasn't making sense because I was too exhausted to remember that you're not playing the same edition I am. Got in now; thank you again. Oruncrest posted this really helpful list of possibly-invented-only-to-make-"useless"-values-useful mechanics: And he finished it up with one my my biggest 4e and up pet peeves: This should not be. This never should have been. 4e was 3e compiled with the outliers sanded off and whacked into an essentially-Champions format, right? In 3e, there was Mental Illusions. I think it's just "Illusions" now; if I get interested enough, I'll look it up. There was also-- for anyone who either had Champions II ("the best supplement ever edited by someone" according to Bruce Harlick ) or "Images" for those who had Fantasy HERO. Those of us who came in through the Capes and Cowls door understood instantly that it was Mental Illusions minus the "based on ECV." Those who came in through the Hiking and Hacking trail likely figured it out on their own pretty quickly. They also had an advantage: right there in the same book they could see that the two had the exact same mechanic: roll your effect dice and compare your results to multiples of the target's characteristic. For the mental approach, you compared it to EGO. For light-based stuff, you compared it to INT. Yep. Intelligence. Every point of INT prevented you from being deceived by light- (you know, I'm just going to say "non-mental" ) illusions. Huzzah! It was useful for something other than skill! The 4e came out and unified everything. You know: group all the like things as like things and give them a group name. Except for the _one_ case that we've decided to cock that all up and invent an entirely new and utterly baffling mechanic (which I have been ignoring-- with great success-- since 1989, because it's asinine): If you fail your PER roll, then you believe it's real. That's 'tarded, Dude. What?! If I fail my PER roll, I can't even see the damned thing. No; you can see it. Without a PER roll? Right. I need I PER roll to find the phone alcove (remember those?!) it's placed in, but I can see the illusion automatically. Right. You understand just how stupid that sounds? Well that's the way it works, okay? Now roll your PER dice to see if you _believe_ it or not. That's not even how PER rolls _work_! Well they have to make this one adjustment-- this special-circumstance kind of case, just for Images, okay? Why? Why would you, instead of inventing an new mechanic, create a special circumstance that damned-near _reverses_ the way I freakin' PER roll works in EVERY OTHER CASE?! Well they had to. Why? Because they changed the mechanic for non-mental illusions. So all Illusions work against PER now? No. Just the one. The non-mental one. If I get hit with a Mental Illusion, the attacker has to get like two or three times my EGO or something like that for me to believe it's real, right? Something like that, but it's INT if we're doing Fantasy. So how high does he have to roll to make me believe his Scooby-ghost-on-a-cloud is real? He doesn't. Why the Hell not? I just automatically think it's real? No, Mike; I _told_ you. You have to fail a PER roll. So I only think it's real if I can't f'n see it? You do understand just how bull spittle that sounds, right? Wait twenty years or so. There will be a fifth edition. Oh, thank the gaming gods! Wait-- why does it take so long to fix something that used to work then got dicked with for no sensible reason? Uhmm... it won't be fixed. Why the hell not? And why would I want to wait that long for it to not be fixed?! So what happens in that future book? I trip over it or something? No; don't be stupid. It's just an illusion. An illusion that I believe to be real if I can't perceive it. So if I walk into it, I somehow know it's there without actually perceiving it, think it's real, twist my ankle, and fall off the stairs into the endless ravine. Is that it? Don't be like that. This has nothing to do with Images. It's just that you can't build your torches with Change Environment anymore. Hunh? Okay. Why not? You have to use Images. Are you FRAKKIN' kidding me?! No. It doesn't matter, though-- it's just light. Light that I know is working but is totally useless to me because in order to perceive the light illuminating something, I have to fail to see the light illuminating something? Not exactly; no. Not in this case. Think of it as a "special circumstance" kind of thing--- No! No; I will not. Up yours, and up the goofy special circumstance from a special circumstance for a special circumstance all born of the fact that someone thought it was perfectly practical to dick up a totally-tested and proven AND STILL USED IN OTHER CASES mechanic. No; screw that, Jeff. I am not doing this. Break out the d10s and blood pool markers..... So yeah. INT once had a similar function, and it was taken away because someone decided this _one_ particular power needed to change from a solid mechanic to a damned sketchy one that required even more sketchiness from other parts of the system. Can't tell you why, but I _can_ tell you it's damned irritating every time I remember that. Short version, GB(i): if you want INT to have a similar defensive granularity, then decide you want to make Images/Illusions work they way they were intended to.

Unless I am mistaken, nothing in Mental Defense mandates that it be on all the time. Nothing says it can't be on, either, but I don't think it has to be assumed that one cannot let "friendlies" send something to you. (yeah: this is going to open a can of worms. )

Gotcha. Thanks.

Almost totally stoked! Love the idea, but is there any chance of a HERO version? Any at all? Or a conversion chart, at the very least? (and is it okay that I used Craneo Inflamea (sp?) as a bad guy? The kids loved him, if that helps)

GB(i): It's probably because it was a scorcher today and I'm up way too late, but I'm not parsing that well enough to grasp it. Can you maybe follow up with some detail or a 'frinstance? Much appreciated, and thank you in advance, Sir. Duke

Well I was going to ask "which time?", but Cancer beat me to the punch with this rimshot-worthy entry: So let me start the story of how I became the most hated man in Lakeland, Florida. First, the disclaimer: No! I am not from Florida. I may be a filthy heathen toothless, odious, knuckle-dragging swamp scoggin, but I am _not_ a Floridian (thank you, God.)! I don't even go to Florida (or Atlanta, for that matter) if I can help it, because I don't like to leave the South. You know what? Outside my workplace, it's not that interesting a story. I'm also rapidly running out of time, so let me tell you about the most hilarious e-mail I have ever received (also work-related). For fourteen months, I have been fighting shipping issues from one particular supplier (a nameless company of nepotism and thumb-filled anuses who shall not be identified). The thing that has really been killing me is that it is the _same_ problems, twice a week. And even when told specifically "do x and the problem will go away," I get met with nothing but almost-commital "hunh." every time I speak with someone about this issue. Better still? There was a six-week period where they actually _tried_ the two suggestions I made, and in that time, there was _zero_ damage (missing items was still a serious issue)! Zero! So of course, they stopped doing it and went back to ensuring that at least 30 grand worth of every shipment was unusable. Morons! Last week, I totally lost my shitake with these nimrods, and broke pretty much every communication and discussion rule of polite society and my own company. Over the next few days, I was getting phone calls and e-mails from people I'd never even _heard_ of! "I'm Jeff Jeffson, Vice-President of placing thumbs in anuses! What can I do to address these problems?" "I'm Luther Andluther, executive in charge of not getting sued. Tell me about the troubles you're having!" But the one that took the cake showed up yesterday afternoon: I'm Theguy Wholoadzyertrux, and I want you to know that I have been doing this job for nearly eight years. The next three paragraphs will demonstrate clearly that English, the language of both of my parents, is a strange and abstract concept with which I have only begun to wrestle. The gist of this is that I am a dedicated professional loader of trucks, and not only do I take a great deal of pride in my work and it's quality, but I also take my job very seriously! There is no one who takes more care and more pride in their work than do I, and I go so far as to check myself and my work through the following four methods to ensure that my work is absolutely perfect! Let's assume I have already listed those four checks, because the current audience doesn't really care about that. In fact, I take my job so seriously that I have taken the time to send pictures of your load for tomorrow, on the truck and secured for transport. Fourteen of them! Please note that your material is stacked and organized better than it ever has been in any truck that you have ever received in the past, just as I always do it. Try to ignore the fact that the truck in the picture is half-empty and that I have yet to jam in orders for two other companies that I am pretty sure will almost fit pressed tightly against your material, just as you would ignore that the truck this material is pictured on also not the truck that runs the route your company is on. So I would like to close saying that you have seen proof that I-- myself-- load your truck personally, and that I am a serious professional, who cares about the quality of his work and who checks his work four different ways to ensure that it is completely perfect. Also, as I am typing this e-mail to you, I see that there is some material that someone has left off your truck. Sincerely, Theguy Wholoadzertrux. [some paraphrasing has occurred. Names may have been changed-- ed] And then HE SENT IT! HE SENT IT! Holy crap, he _actually_ SENT IT! Would you? Would _any_ of you?! If it had been me, I'd have seen the missing material and thought "Delete? Save as draft? Can't send that. I should save that self-righteous rant for the day I finally _don't_ make a shockingly-expensive mistake." But _NOoooOOOooo_! Not "Theguy!" No, Sir! I forwarded it to the guy who keeps a lose eye on me: "You, uh... You _really_ want to reply to this, don't you?" Oh _yes_! Yes-yes-yes-yes! I _really_ do, so very, _very_ much.....! "You know what? I think you should. Go ahead!" "Are you _sure_ about that? I _guarantee_ I'm going to break company communications policy....." Yeah. They sent me that last eye-splitting thing you sent them. "So it's okay....?" "By all means. I've had enough of this crap, too." DONE! Mr. Wholoadzyertrux: Thank you for taking the time to reassure me that my material may, for the first time ever, arrive here completely undamaged. Well, undamaged, anyway, because you have also forewarned me that it will not be complete. Mr. Wholoadzertrux: I trust you are aware that we get an advanced copy of what is _supposed_ to be on the truck. Two of them actually, so that when we figure out what's wrong this time, we can make changes on both copies, and send one back with your driver for billing correction. I have just compared the list of material that you left off the truck this time (and thank you: we've never had an advanced copy of your F-ups before; this is an exciting change) that you discovered, and I appreciate that you took the time to list this missing material instead of moving on to something else- like maybe GETTING OFF YOUR ASS AND PUTTING THAT MATERIAL ON THE TRUCK! I also appreciate that while you "personally loaded the truck" and "personally quadruple checked the truck," that material caused an interesting switch from first person to ablative, because that material "was left off." Some other guy left it off while you were loading and checking it, I'm sure. I strongly suggest you audit your load-checking methodologies, as I couldn't help but notice that the six items you listed are THE FIRST SIX THINGS ON YOUR LOADING LIST! THE VERY FIRST THINGS! They weren't obscurely buried in microfontic type somewhere; they were bulleted, plainly, in extremely large, bold print, black-on-chrome yellow (a color combination that, I'd like to point out, was selected by the DOT for road warning signs as test after test found this to be the absolute most visible, most easy-to-read combination in existence anywhere on this planet). It's like a grocery list with part numbers, and that was right there, in the space usually reserved for things like "Whatever you, Baby, please don't forget we are completely out of toilet paper!" That critical area of your list seems to not get quadruple-checked. Perhaps a quintupling would help with that. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to contact me, provide me with pictures, reassure me, and remind me how important this work is to you. However-- and I don't say this to discourage similar discourse in the future, I am remarkably busy after about ten AM, and I would appreciate a more concise summation of the topic in any e-mail. For instance, you could have made every point simply by stating "I am the guy who personally loads your truck, and I just wanted to send you undeniable proof that I am a complete moron." Thank you for your time. Duke Oliver The Place I Work Sure, that sounds like a lot of rage and frustration being vented, but that's mostly because it was. I'm serious, folks: twice a week we go through this. It has gotten so bad that we now only buy from them once a week, and have moved half our needs to a vendor who, sadly, as-yet cannot meet our weekly needs. We're looking into a third vendor to cover the rest. But that's not all! Oh, no! It gets so much _better_! Our material arrived today, and I opted to unload and inspect it-- you know, personally, professionally, pridefully-- all that stuff. I mean, Theguy went out of his way to do it for me, right? He deserves no less! The material-- for the first time _ever_, I'd like to add, was completely undamaged. I mean complete, perfectly undamaged. Granted, it was also loaded and secured with a care and skill never before demonstrated by any member of this company-- you know: normally, like the way a ten-year-old kid might do it. :/ I was astounded! I really didn't think they could load the material without _somehow_ having to smash something! Then I noticed the truck itself. Not the trailer; no.... The one-hundred-and-eighty-six-thousand dollar new truck with the double-berth sleeper and separate diesel generator. Once side nicely caved in. I called to the driver (who was regaling me with stories of just how hated I have managed to become "back home") "Dude! What happened to your brand new truck?!" Oh, that dumbass Wholadzyertrux F'n smashed it with the forklift trying to finagle your crap into it without bashing it around the way he usually does. Okay, not funny. Dude's a great guy, a family man, and works his butt off to get ahead. All-business, and I respect him a great deal. I was amused not about the damage to his truck, but about having been proven right! It's like some kind of voodoo ritual! They _must_ smash something in order to get the material onto the truck. If it's not the material, then something else must be sacrificed..... I gotta go. I meant to be gone already. Y'all have fun.

Man, I spent all my free time this evening (not a lot of it today) hunting this thread clarify the vehicles house rules we use just a bit (another thread prodded the memory that I was going to do that some time back), but now that I'm here, I'm out of time. So I'll leave you with something that isn't really a house rule, but was part of a campaign rule that sort of happened by accident: Roofing contractors in Phoenix, Arizona are all dead. All of them. Zombies, if you must, but they aren't zombies: they are well-aware of their suffering. In the campaign this came from, those who received Salvation prior to death went to Heaven. Those who did not spent eternity as roofers in Phoenix. Gotta run. Enjoy. Duke

That is the most horrifying whack-a-mole I have ever seen.....

Okay, that was a lot of wasted effort-- not you guys; the wall of text I just wrote and deleted. My apologies, but upon proofing it, I realized it sounded far more adversarial than I ever intend _anything_ (not work-related) to sound. After a couple of attempts at tweaking it, I realized it just couldn't be salvaged, and frankly, with the down votes already being thrown around, I'd have to say that things are already adversarial enough in here without accidentally contributing to it. So let me try again, if you would be so kind as to bear with me. First, I'd like to say that I'm human. I'm willing to be that everyone here is _human_-- except possibly Hugh-- who isn't here yet-, and may well be a web-based AI whose sole purpose is to remember every single detail of a rulesbook and several thousand conversations, all the while mathing our entire universe down to it's base prime number. (Love ya, Hugh. Seriously: thanks for all the times you've been a great sport, and hopefully will be one for this, too. ). Because of that, and because this is a both an informal and a conversational format for communicating to people who have at least one thing in common (appreciation or at least interest in some incarnation of the HERO System), our opinions are _going_ to leak out; they are just going to leak out. And before anyone points out that I have no right to speak for everyone, you're absolutely correct. That was my opinion leaking out. It's going to happen a _lot_ throughout the rest of my life, and while we can all protest otherwise, I am willing to be that makes me the very-most-possible opposite of unique here. When you see my opinion leaking out, I implore that you do _not_ assume that I am presenting it as any kind of fact; more importantly-- much, _much_ more importantly, I humbly request that you do _not_ read it as any kind of insult to anyone in any form or fashion. For example: do not assume that I insult the way you or someone else is playing the game. I play 2e, for Pete's sake! I _know_ I play it different than most of the people here; I'm not going to call you out for doing your thing different. So again, I ask that you take no offense at opinions leaking out: that's all they are: conversation, sometimes offered as quips, humor, lightening tension, or something that I personally (you know: in my own opinion) thought might be interesting to think about to perhaps one person who might read it. And that's _it_. No insult; no sarcasm; no attack. You know, if I was Canadian, I wouldn't have to make such a preamble..... Second, I almost _never_ get involved in these "how do I build an everyday thing" threads. Why? Because they end up adversarial. Assumptions get made, down votes get tossed around, and people start getting their feelings hurt. (No: I will never down vote anyone for anything but the most extreme and offensive of personal attacks (against anyone who isn't me. I genuinely cannot get too terribly worked up over a total stranger's opinion of me, so have fun with it )-- well, and that one NGD thread where we are all passing out down votes for fun. That was damned amusing . I tend to think of the down vote button as a special kind of passive-aggressive dickishness that I just can't get behind.) At any rate, these tend to break into two camps: the camp of "I just want to play with this idea" and the camp of "you must do this." I only decided to post to this one because, after a quick read of the thread, the OP doesn't say at any point that he is either going to require players to do this, or that he is being required by a GM to do this. Without that direct statement, I'm going to work on the assumption that this is one of those "fun ideas I want to play with" posts, and run with that. That being said: I'd build a smartphone using the computer rules of whatever edition you're using. That will cover pretty much all your apps-- they're just programs. Your processor is just INT. I'd take a really hard look at what actually _is_ an app, and what is actually web-based: while they may be out there, I've yet to see a phone where "Translate" was hard-coded into the phone as opposed to being something web-based that is accessed through your phone. Now you can build a special "internet accessing device" perk for your gadget (I wouldn't), or just let that fall into the SFX of your HH Radio Communication: Phone, Text, internet access. Ho-yeah! Then-- now keep in mind that this is assuming it's an off-the-shelf phone-- I'd mandate that it be a fragile/breakable focus. Yep: you get hit with the fire blast or whatever it was that Doc D mentioned up above, there's a good chance you'll break it. However, you paid points for it (in a game run by someone who wasn't me), and I'm not going to keep you from your points; I am merely applying the Foci rules. You will be able to replace it-- without the expenditure of additional points-- by either handing it to the team gadgeteer (if you have one) or stopping at the next phone store (or Wal-Mart, or Dollar General, or Family Dollar, or pharmacy, or large, upscale gas station-- or pretty much anywhere that doesn't sell building materials, potpourri, or gold chains by the foot (14 or less for the gold-by-the-foot kiosk selling them anyway)) you pass. I would implement the other disadvantages of a "real" cell phone, too: as mentioned above, you can be tapped, traced, hacked, located, and telemarketing robots can call mid-stealth roll. You _did_ remember to silence it, right? NO, DAMNIT! I _don't_ mean put it on vibrate, since that seems to be the loudest damned setting the things have! All that being said, I wouldn't do it, period. If my game was still set in 1982, sure: these things would be _amazing_ game-changing devices that could provide a _huge_ advantage over the bad guys! Well, except for translation, streaming, texting, and anything else that's internet-based. If memory serves, the internet was a pretty dull place in 1982..... But let me explain why I wouldn't charge for it, at least not one bit more than HH radio com, as a phone, if someone really felt that was a game breaker or charged more than a single point for a team communicator: What can we do with it? We can put books in it! Cool. So we first have to find out the point value of a single book. Then we can charge that much for each book that's loaded into the phone. Or we could, since you'll never read more than one at a time, charge for that one book and sort of "gadget pool" it out via the internet when you need a different book. So let's build a book in HERO. To use something I think most of us are familiar with, let's use HERO System 5e book. What value does this book have? Well, it's bulletproof; we know rPD is worth some points. So let's day that books have what--? 3 rPD? Was it a high-powered rifle? We'll give books 5 rPD, just in case. Having access to this book at a moment's notice means we effectively have the all-important skill set all superheroes and adventure characters need: KS: how to use the HERO System, 14- (because you were probably wrong, and should look it up); Extra Time (you have to look it up, remember?) Okay, now what's that skill? Well, for most of us, I guess it would be a KS-- just a couple points. But for those who have to be _way_ more familiar-- those who write for or about good ol' HS, well it's going to be the source of a Professional Skill: some part of their income depends on getting everything right, after all. You know, let's just call it 2 pts anyway. We know now that books are worth character points, the same value as a die of blast or doubling your lifting strength. Seems right. But there are disadvantages to books, too: they catch fire. They hate water. They fall apart under extreme abuse. So let's call them fragile foci, too. What's the final value on 5 points of OAF fragile/breakable in your favorite version of the game? What other advantages or limitations are there to carrying around books? I'm not going to worry about that simply because this has already gone on far too long; I have little doubt that anyone more interested than me could justify both books that cost 30cp and books that were completely free; possible even books that give you a point back just for owning it (I'm looking at you, Deepak Chockra or however you spell it). But once we have that cost, we multiply it be the number of books we want in our phone: using the base five points determined above by not-quite-completely-arbitrary means, I decide I want sixteen books in my phone (I cheated: I just looked at how many books I actually have in my phone right now ). At five points each, my phone-- before anything else gets bought-- costs 80cp. I think I'm going to build a gadget / book pool instead: after all, I can only read one at a time, and I can switch back and forth almost whenever I want; it's a nice simulation of downloading / deleting, too, so... Bonus! . Of course, if I just pay the 80 cp, then my phone now has 80 rPD, because five per book, right? No? Is it because different books have different rPD and we have to figure all sixteen of them individually? I'll need to make a cheat sheet for my book pool, then. That wasn't the problem? Ah, of course: the STR minimums for the books! I could never hope to carry sixteen copies of HS 5e without suffering an encumbrance penalty. What was I thinking? So let's round it off and say that with these sixteen books my phone now weighs one-hundred-and-twelve pounds. That's not going to cut it. Fine. We'll use PDFs. No STR minimum; no encumbrance, much more powerful reliance on electricity. So now we've got to figure out the value in CP of PDFs. For simplicity's sake, let's say that they are the same AP as books, minus that rPD. Sounds like a savings, but you don't get to down-cost with STR Min, either. Yes; that's gone on _way_ to far. Thanks for indulging it. Sincerely: thanks for putting up with that. But it does come down to what do you charge a superhero for a book? What do you charge him for a calculator? What do you charge him for the world's absolute crappiest flashlight? What's the END cost for lighting up the screen? How does it vary when it auto-levels the brightness? How much END for each additional window / tab / program you have open? We're going to have to keep up with that if we build the thing. Now I'd like to take a minute to revisit an earlier comment: I would charge for this sort of super crime-busting equipment were my game set in the world of 1982 because of the advantages it presents. Maybe not much, because of the disadvantages it has as well. To be equally straightforward, I would charge _today_ for a no-limitations custom, super-device with none of the inherent problems of an off-the-shelf phone. But I can't charge for a cell phone because it doesn't provide an advantage or a leg-up or anything that your villains don't already have. In fact, unless you were born super, you probably had this amazing device-- or something not unlike it-- before you actually became a made character. It's something that, in the first world, at any rate, a staggering number of adults and pre adults have. I might actually consider giving a _disadvantage_ to a character who refuses to have one in a modern setting. (which, interestingly enough, is another rules-legal way to give everyone an "everyman" cell phone that works the way the GM says it does). And this whole thing-- well, mostly the reactions of "you have to build it and charge points for it"-- is what drove me away from this board years ago. In my heart, I truly believe it's why HERO died in popularity: when I hear or read people complain about the "complexity" and the "math" involved, I ask questions. More times than not, it is not the actual math (though that comes up a lot-- unfairly, I think-- with regard to character creation), it boils down to being sick to death of "_having to_" build every little piece of the universe. Not GMs so much (we tend to enjoy that nonsense, just as a thought exercise), but even as players who suddenly find themselves required to "build" a costume that stays clean or a cape that always moves as if stirred by a soft breeze, or being told that their secret ID character cannot use the spike of her high-heeled shoe as a weapon applied to the temple of her assailant because she hasn't paid points to assign damage to it as a weapon, so she just gets STR damage. "No, Jimmy: you're clothing never has dryer lint! No; I would _love_ to charge you for dryer lint, but I haven't had the time to build dryer lint just yet. Give me a couple of weeks; things will slow down some, and I'll get right on it." Cell phones. Home furniture. A place to live. These are super-ubiquitous items that I just _can't_ charge for. Doing so just drives home that nitpickiness that outsiders hold against the system to begin with, and ultimately, except as a fun thing to wonder about, it's a huge waste of both my time and the players' XP. I won't charge for a cell phone anymore than I would charge for a domino mask. Oooh! Domino mask! Concealment, 22 or less... Or maybe +5 to the character's existing concealment?-- personal identity only... OIF-- OAF if we're feeling risky..... Maybe plusses to PRE, since no one is _really_ comfortable being yelled at by a stranger? Actually, that sounds good: Concealment 22 or less, personal identity only, +5 PRE. Oooh-- would the Reputation Disadplication hinge on that mask? If Robin showed up without his mask, would people still know he was Robin? If not, then the value of the Reputation total should be reduced to show it's Linked to the mask. Linked? Only in HERO ID? Does anyone have a reputation that only applies in HERO ID? We should retcon all the characters in this campai-- nah; too much work. We'll start it with the next campaign. Maybe the Reputation has a Dependance on the domino mask? Or it's like a spell ingredient? Have to give that one some thought. :/ Wait! Reputation: Triggered by viewing the domino-- eh.. I think that has some problems, too. Granted, when Robin's not there, he's still got the reputation when people speak of him... Though they are going to see him as having the mask, every time..... So the mask is important to it.... Oh-- can he get accidental change if the mask is prone to fall off? Or take the same value as the focus and remove that value from his super-heroic physical and psych lims....? It just goes on. Some stuff just isn't worth doing, and for my games-- do yours how you want, obviously-- everyday stuff-- the things you have in pocket (unless you're like me enough to have a couple of knives on you as you sit here) as you sit down to browse a good book.... I'm not going to charge for, period. (Cue Hugh finding some really clever and highly lethal combination of the stuff in my pockets that's worth at least 30pts as a combat-usable something or other. (You can't use the knives; I've already copped to those))

Well, yes; but only the parts I'm done with, so we're good.

I'll be glad to, but only if we're doing a thread on unmaking.

I get you, Amigo. I feel like that about The Black Hole. At least, about my self-made expurgated version, where I erased every scene with VINCENT and BOB after the landing on the Cygnus. Trust me; it's _way_ better that way.

As an option (though it likely won't ring well for users of newer editions) : We wanted vehicles well before there were actual vehicle rules. (we clued in pretty early that you could do more than just supers with the game system, and we were ready to explore new planets ) We used the character building rules to make vehicles. We still do. Buy Growth until you get the size you want, buy relevant movement powers, INT for a computer, Ego for an AI, etc. Not only does it work perfectly well, it eliminates the need for a whole new subset of rules.

See? That's what I'm talking about. I would _hate_ that. When I watch Journey to the Center of the Earth, I want pure pulp-style adventure, period.

This makes me extremely happy.

Do be careful, LL! It's way closer to you than it is to me!