Duke Bushido

I hope you sick bastiches are happy.  You've made me go to Rotten Tomatoes.  

 

I'll probably forgive you, if I live long enough, but _still_....

 

Anyway, I just checked:

 

Guardians.  (The Russian one).  _Loved_ it!  Tomato-thingied at 30 % and released two years ago.

 

There. Now I'm playing by the rules, too.

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

That's sweet of you to say, Duke, thank you. But we're actually pretty low on the "friends" list of China and Saudi Arabia these days. If interested, try Searching "canada saudi arabia dispute" and "huawei executive canada,"

 

Problematic from geopolitical and economic points of view; but for my part, pissing off those regimes causes me no sleepless nights.

 

No time tonight (spent it all with Hugh and the others on the intro adventure thread  (that I notice you've not added your two cents into       ) ), but just for curiosity: does the Saudi thing trace back, by any chance, to the guy who felt that his religious rights to wear a turban meant he did not have to wear a motorcycle helmet?  You know:  the idea that he had a _right_ to operate a motor vehicle, as opposed to _permission_ to operate one?  (amazing how many people get that mixed up).  I followed that story for a couple of months, and I loved the truly Canadian outcome of that:

 

You have a right to wear a turban.  You can stick it on top of your helmet."  

 

Given the US courts and our own politician's tendency to forget that "rights" and "permissions" are different, it would have ended very differently.

 

 

I recall a case back in the 80s where -- I wish I could remember the car-- there were numerous accidents caused by "surging" during braking.  The US investigation was several pages long, and classified it (I kid you not) as "pedal misapplication" caused by the different ergonomics of the front-wheel drive design (then not as common as it is today), which requires a differently-shaped floor pan, etc, etc, etc--   pedal misapplication.  Engineer's fault: should have seen it coming.  This faulty design is causing people to stab their foot _between_ the pedals, and they are often putting pressure on the brake _and_ the throttle.  Clearly an engineering and manufacturing issue.

 

And the Canadian report:  These idiots are stomping both pedals.  Give them their tickets and make them take driver's training all over again.

 

 

 

You guys are great.   I remember my grandfather's stories of when we were like that here.....

 

 

 

Duke

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I'm not opposed to "sample characters" per se, but I do not believe the scenario should be written specifically for them,

 

Neither do I.   I believe the original suggestion was to build them as currently-active supers, making them work as _either_ background NPCs _or_ pre-gen PCs, depending entirely on the groups preferences.  It's not a "do" this thing as much as it is "here is a thing." 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

A better alternative, if it is practical, would be to use character guidelines, and sample characters, from the rulebook - Champions Complete.

 

Which brings up the primary purpose of the sample characters, and the reason they were suggested in the first place:

 

The majority of the write-ups that run with the new edition is anathema to new players learning the game.  You'd need some an experience GM, two experienced players, and a rosetta stone to make sense of them.   Without any hint of hyperbole, I have been playing this game since 81.  Seriously.  The longest "break" I've had from playing or running this game was the six months after I got married, and the three months I broke after the birth of each kid.  So spread across the decades, I've had a total of 12 months without at least one game a month, and often more.  I say that _not_ to present myself as an expert, but to present myself as "kind of experienced with this stuff."   I've played every version of the rules (except 6) in spite of my preference for 2e.

 

There are power builds in the 6e material (some of which I own.  In fact, I mailed Scott my extra copy of CC, as I won't ever be using it) that I have no F'n _clue_  what the Hell they do, and sometimes, even reading the text descriptions just doesn't help.

 

That's bullstip, Dude.  Complete and utter bullstip.  That is _not_ the thing we need for new players.  We need simple builds-- some modifiers are fine, but when it becomes a matter of seeing just how many you can tie together because you're just so good at it?  Nah.  That is _exactly_ what the HERO rep is, and why people aren't interested, and _not_ what we need to be relying on to win over new people.

 

Clean, easy to understand (and briefly explained, just in case) sample characters.  I insist.  People _need_ them, and given the increased complexity of newer editions, they need them more than they ever needed them before.

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

  As a starting adventure, my view is that the combination of Under the Dome and the CC rulebook should provide everything they need to create characters and start playing.

 

And I agree.  It is simply that I believe a few clean, digestible examples of how to build a character (emphasis on "digestible") are vital to that.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The goal was a "play out of the box" game, I believe.

 

To date, I have everything HERO ever did in a boxed set (though I don't have the actual "box" for 3e Champions).  Every one of them includes a selection of written-up characters.  Not to say we need to model ourselves on a bygone time, but it bears noting that game designers of yore seemed to think a few more examples were a good thing.  One of the complaints about the last two editions was that there were no physical guidelines or even hard ideas on where a character should land on the power scale, etc.  I would like to include characters that provide

 

1) utility as easy-to-understand builds new players can use as examples of how the rules work: nothing as complex as the current official write-ups of almost anyone (I think Foxbat is still pretty easy to understand, but I don't have the enemies books for the last two editions, and he wasn't an example in the current rules books).

 

2)  A rough idea of what power level this adventure could be expected to start at without having to throw out concepts that A) they may not yet be comfortable with and B.) players on this very board have complained about as not being particularly helpful with regard to building a reasonably-useful character.

 

3) Characters that a new GM or new player could potentially use as pre-gen characters if they are not willing to tackle character creation on their own.  For example, when I was learning to play, I was dating a charming young lady named Kimberlynn, and -- possibly curious about why those two Saturdays a month were off-limits for making plans-- one evening she tagged along to game night at Jim's.  The first hour, she just watched and listened.  The rest of the evening, she played.  Jim handed her a xerox of Blue Jay from his personal selection of Villains, and that was her character.  No way in Hell was she ever inclined to make a character, and even then, she only played four or five times before deciding "eh.... not my thing."

 

Lots of people who try gaming end up deciding it's not their thing.  A lot of them decide it _is_ their thing  (it's my second-favorite hobby, so I might be biased  ).   Some of them will never try because the two-plus hours of character generation might as well be a deadbolt lock.   Why not have a tiny selection of characters they can pull out and use if they don't want the hassle of making their own?  If they like the experience, they'll come around eventually.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

OK, so let's assume we will have 6 sample characters (as big as I would envision a team to be).  Add on Raven, Muckman, the Skull, CJ and seven super-powered members of Chaos.  That's 17 fully statted characters.  Add in two to five different versions of Skull agents, the animatronics (one sheet, I am assuming, not one for each character), and we are easily at 20 pages (I'm assuming we can present modifications or options on two basic versions of Skull agents).

 

Raven, Muckman, CJ, and the Skull are going to have to be written up anyway, no matter what we do.  They likely won't be the best examples, as the two "good guys" should be built specifically to be less powerful than the heroes, and CJ should be capable of easily handling any two player characters.  So we have to do them, no matter what.

 

The animatronics:  Yes; I'm thinking one sheet-fits-all.  I'm also thinking it might be a good example for demonstrating "truncated" bad guys: these things don't even need full stats:  they are machines.  The need to INT, no EGO, no PRE, no STUN, etc.  In the design notes that envision for each write up (and sure; there may not be any, but I'd like to think it could happen), making mention of "Takes no STUN" and automaton, etc-- demonstrating that even a bad guy doesn't have to be built from scratch across several hours: just get the important stuff for the scenario in which he is used; HERO is simpler than you think; etc.  Maybe not: might do a full sheet.  But I'd like to think not.

 

I don't know what to think about "Skull agents."  I think as the ideas evolved we ended up with street gangs, actual mobsters, and Chaos.  Honestly, I like that better than costumed agents anyway-- not on the whole, mind you, but for this particular adventure: the Skull is relatively new on the scene, he has just begun to grow his power; he has just begun recruiting and creating the sort of huge, masterful schemes that will bring him the sort of staggering resources that a private four-color army would require.  I'd do two-- _possibly_ three?  Gang bangers and note to the GM that a new description plus any of those three templates is a whole new person.  Mobsters?  I might have three "types" there, as well: henchman / leg breaker, planner / manager, and possibly a third if wheelman/gadget guy needed to show.  At any rate, mobsters and gang bangers don't need to power levels.  They need either "regular guns" or "Bone Blasters and defense screens."  Upgrade their threat via equipment packages, teamwork, and coordination.  And radios.

 

And honestly, I don't have an issue with two gangers, two mobbers; two equipment levels for each.  It's not like the players are going to read the sheets to know that there are four guys with the same stats and two that have a different identical stats.  New names; new faces equals totally different guys.  Though maybe there should be one brawler type (usable with either group of "agents."  This would provide, via the GM notes and build discussion, the opportunity to mention "mook rules" and provide a fighter type competent enough to which it would be typically applied.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

That's before we consider having two versions of every character to portray variant power levels(!) although we might be able to show only a few lines changed rather than a second version of the character sheet.

 

That was the plan:

 

"for higher power levels, here are some options:  X, Y, Z.  Done.  Discuss in build notes why it is not necessary to fully-balance NPC (and NPC villain in particular) points; discuss how the GM and players should get together to find some disads to match the increased power level if the character is a PC.  Done.

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I commented earlier that we have no SFX budget to worry about, but perhaps our budget constraint is page count.  Can we afford the space for 17 fully statted out characters?  Should this be one big AP, or several smaller modules in a series?  I favour the former.

 

Perhaps it's because I've put in my work day; perhaps I've been struck stupid.  You lost me with "AP."   I also prefer putting the characters in this book.  I prefer doing it in every book (not same characters.   Well, maybe Captains Cluebat and Rescue, if we stay in Hepzibah, but whatever villains and _important NPCs who might end up in combat / attacked / whatever would require more than a list of skills-- should also be written up in the adventures in which they (first) appear.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Now, if Chaos characters are left as super-powered, they could be presented as sample characters, constructed on the same rules and guidelines as the PCs (perhaps with occasional notes like "a SuperHero PC limited to a Killing Attack would not be wise, but it can work for a killer SuperVILLAIN".

 

My thoughts exactly.  Honestly, I would also include in-story notes that, should a full-rostered Chaos be too much for the players (suppose this guy only gets two or three players?), then the GM should consider taking one or two of the Chaos members off the Chaos roster and save them in reserve as "background villains" for later adventures, or to toss in as single-encounters whenever he needs a man with a gun to get things moving.

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

  Discussing how Raven and Muckman would need to be adjusted to make them suitable PCs could also be considered.

 

Agreed.  The Raven would be as simple as removing his .45 and relying entirely on his non-RKA guns.  Powering him up might be as simple as adding Danger Sense and +1 SPD, maybe a couple of levels with his guns. There should also be a note that, should the Raven be in use as a PC, anywhere that the story as-written uses the Raven as Captain Cluebat, the story should be modified so that one of the Ravens cultivated informants now takes that roll, contacting the Raven directly with his information.  That doesn't change the character significantly, and doesn't rob us of a Captain Cluebat.  The information will never be more helpful than this, and will never appear on camera long enough to be anything other than Captain Cluebat, thus no write-up is needed.

 

MuckMan will be more difficult, as he has actual powers, and was beginning to be moulded more into a low-grade "force of nature" rather than a thinking rational being.  While he should be easy to "fix" into a PC, we would have to find a way around not having him as Captain Rescue.  Though yes; I did originally consider that these two would be part of the ideally-six sample heroes.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I think our terminology needs to be consistent with the current game rules.  DCs have become crucial in that regard, from 4e if not earlier.  The intent, to my mind, was to establish a baseline to compare different attacks so we would not have confusion like "how can my 6d6 KA (3d6 HKA + 45 STR) be overpowered?  HE has a 75 STR - that's more than twice as many dice!

 

I do not disagree with you, Sir.  My obviously poorly-made point was that we should not be relying on this brand-new (and potentially confusing; certainly overwhelming) terminology _exclusively_.

 

Just as an example of a "Build Note:"

 

Line 12:  The Raven has a custom-modified .45 automatic that delivers 6 DCs, defined here as 2D6 of Ranged Killing Attack.  He has bought this power by declaring the gun to be an obvious Focus, and has decided that it's mounted in a quick-draw mechanic wrist harness, meaning that is is also inaccessible and can't be taken away with a grab maneuver.  To demonstrate that the gun uses its own source of power (the bullets), and not the Raven's own personal Endurance, the .45 has been built with the "Reduced END" advantage, bought to the Zero END level.  (Yes; I can shorten it up considerably, but it loses friendliness)

 

That's it.  We have mention of damage classes; we have mention of the base power and how much, and we explain the modifiers used to build the power.  Moreover, we have a visual aid via the sheet where the new player can see how it all comes together.  Could we do charges?  Yes.  Could we do Clips?  Yes.  I don't want to-- at least not at first-- simply because I believe whole-heartedly that we should keep these early builds _clean_.  That, and tracking charges and clips just adds something else to track during combat, and ideally, these will be new players.  Remember that not only is a stacked list of modifiers something the players have to cypher through with the build; it's also a stacked list of things of which the new GM has to be aware.  Ten powers / equipment items per character, each with eleven modifiers is a hell of a lot for a new guy to keep up with it.

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I'm not sure we have ever had great "look at these guys to guide your PC build" examples.  How many people built to the standard of Crusader and Starburst, rather than Green Dragon and Dragonfly?

 

DUDE!  I totally did Crusader and Dragonfly.    My first handful of made-myself characters were all akin to Crusader (usually without the shield, but not always), simply because-- well, you know I'm not a comic book guy: I learned more about comics _after_ playing Champions than I ever knew before, and I still don't know much.  At any rate, not being a comic book guy, it was easier for me to get behind "super-trained super-agent" than it was to get behind "superman."

 

And Dragonfly?  Dude!  He's a _dragonfly_!  There is nothing on this tiny earth cooler than dragonflies, no matter what you may have lead yourself to believe.    The night I was invited to play, I was handed the book and told "pick one of these guys to be your character; we're about to start, and everyone else already has characters.  We can make you a different character after the game, if you want."

 

I picked Dragonfly.  You know: cause he's a dragonfly!

 

Well that went nowhere, but I got all excited.  Don't bother replying to any of that; this conversation is already bordering on novella.   

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Definitely agree that all of the character build details need to be included (which, of course, exacerbates the "page count per character" issue, but we need that detail).

 

I don't mind _that_ kind of page count.  That's the reason I pointed to Pyramid in the Sky:  complete adventure in under sixty pages, yet a "mini sourcebook" of over sixty pages detailing characters (lots and lots of characters), organizations, etc-- even a couple of small maps-- relevant to the adventure.  That sort of detail I don't mind, and if this works out at all, after adventure twelve or so, we should have enough stuff to pull out a near-complete sourcebook on Hepzibah anyway.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

My bias is to avoid statting it up, but I also lean more to "impenetrable dome" than "fatal to touch".  Once we decide it does damage, the obvious questions become "how much?" and "how fast?"

 

Agreed, and for all the same reason, especially these two:

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 Players being players, someone is going to try to work out how much damage he will take at his maximum flight speed, with his defensive powers cranked to the maximum, to get through whatever thickness we establish the Dome to be.

 

Yep.  

 

And the second reason?

 

To borrow the term "players being players" and go one step further:  Players being the resourceful and cunning little deviants that an "impossible" challenge tends to inspire them to be, you're going to lose eight or nine play sessions because one or two of them have convinced the entire party that since it's energy, there's an insulator, and all they have to do is find / build / create it.  You will _have_ to include a black market, because by the time they give up, it will be positively post-appocalyptic inside the dome.  

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

First, I think this puts the cart before the horse.  As we go through the adventure itself, we should identify questions the players are reasonably likely to ask about the setting, and be ready to answer them. 

 

To an extent.  Not in minutiae.  "Is there an airport?"  "Yes."  Is a far cry from the size, traffic, daily departure list, restaurants and lounges, combinations for half the lockers, and the names of at least four pilots and one security guard.

 

Following in that vein:

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

We are placing them in a situation where they will reasonably interact a lot with Hepzibah, and its inhabitants (or do you envision the Heroes just ignoring the poor locals, and not questioning whether the town can offer some resources to facilitate getting that dome down, or that every resident will go hide in his basement until/unless the PCs come to call, like those old dungeon crawls?) 

 

Considering we were on the opposite sides of this discussion when the "use your skills" chapter was being discussed, you already know my answer to this.  Not only do I expect the heroes will interact with the town, I _demand_ it!  Not because I want them to explore this brave new fictional world, but because having to lean on other people fosters teamwork and encourages new ideas.  It's just a whole lot more fun to have to track down the right lab to use your skills more effectively, make some contacts, have a couple of discussions, etc-- than it is to say "roll a 7 and you'll know everything you need to know."

 

And one more in that vein:

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If the GM is faced with a dozen player questions, and no answers, how is that likely to go over?

 

Two things that I believe will work fine:

 

1) maps.  They don't have to be much; you don't even need a lot of streets.  A random white shape with a few points of interest noted on it-- action locations, a few labs, stores, library, schools, restaurants, hospital, police station(s) and public works; parks-- just a few things.  Label those white areas vaguely:  industrial district; theater district; warehouse district; Paddy Town; MLK Boulevard (if you need a "bad side of town," anyway.  Why did they pick like the _worst_ neighborhoods in every city to put MLK?)  Shopping district.

 

2) Respecting the GM.  No; I don't mean just acknowledging his right to do whatever he wants, but respect him as a damned human being with an actual brain, and enough creative spirit to be in an RPG.  We expect him to interact as a dozen NPCs at the drop of a hat, but we can't trust that, armed with this map and a brief (very brief) description of a few key locations, he will be able to field answers to the more far-flung questions?  It's a bit insulting, I think.  Further, the other option is to foresee all the questions-- all the possible questions (which is difficult, as my eight ball only has twelve answers in it) and then tell him "You'll have to commit these hundred-and-twenty pages to memory so you can spout it all out on the spot, or your game is crap and your players are unhappy and your game is damaged and ruined beyond repair."  Not only is it insulting, but didn't we start doing this on the premise that today's players don't have that kind of time?

 

I'm pretty sure those superhero games with the 6-to-24 page adventures aren't making people sad, since every superhero game on the market right now is kicking HEROs ass.  There's a happy medium, and I say it's giving the GM a set of guidelines and letting him answer appropriately to his situation.  Once we say that mcGuffin X can be found at 164 Rufassa Street, we've screwed the GM.  If his players are having a hard time finding the mcGuffin, well he can't say "okay, you've finally found it, but it took you nearly four hours.  You've still got time to rendezvous with Mister B, but only if you hurry!"  He can't do that, because his players are still seven miles from Rufassa Street, kicking in doors in the warehouse district.

 

That's just one example, mind you, but it nicely highlights the problem of "too much information."

 

The standard response-- we all know the standard response-- actually slits its own throat:

 

He's the GM!  He can move the mcGuffin anywhere he wants, any time he wants, if it's in the best interest of his game!

 

Well you're damned right he can!  Further, he can do it at his table far better and far more perfectly-tailored for his group and their current situation way, way better than any of us can, working with nothing but the possibility that someone at the table _might_ ask this one particular question, and we just don't trust him to answer that.  Frankly, since he can do it so much _more_ correctly that we ever could, I say let him do it the first time!  He doesn't need me kibitzing.  He know's he got a red eight and he knows there are two black nines; let him make the move.

 

So I tend to think "framework."  Maps, broadly labeled.  Extraneous locations broadly alluded to.    Action locations, key people-- reasonably well-detailed.  After that, let's have the confidence that he can make a decision or two all by himself.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Those old Hero adventures, and I will bet the others you hold up, did not have sample characters, or characters at multiple power levels.  The issue that has been raised, with greater and greater frequency, is that today's gamers have neither the time, nor the inclination, to fill in the rest as needed.  They want something they can pop out of the box and play.

 

I chose those examples specifically because they _do_ have sample characters, locations, etc.  Note that 1 ) I did not include the Island of Dr D (it had a map, and a couple of enemies, period) and 2) I went out of my way to mention Pyramid in the Sky, which practically was a mini-sourcebook, having enough character write-ups and full bios to populate a campaign.  Even then, the adventure was under sixty pages.

 

Multiple power levels is a "recent" thing I've seen popping up in HERO: witness Tiger's bread-and-butter series of updated / upgraded villains, and the substantial power creep of the villains that have been represented yet again in the last couple of editions.  it started heavily in 4e with notes "to make him more powerful, do X.  To make him less powerful, do Y," and it shows no signs of slacking off (barring the complete collapse of HERO, of course).  As it has occurred in essentially _half_ the editions of the game, it seems less-than-unreasonable to offer it to new players, albeit with a bit more coddling than "Change unfathomable build 2 for unfathomable builds D and Q."  

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If our adventure involved, say, breaking in to a secure lab to steal back some stolen tech, we would not really need to fill in details of the surrounding city, or the other competitors to the owners of this lab (1).  These details would not be relevant.  If this were a city being invaded by aliens, and will either be saved by Our Heroes or a pile of smoldering rubble occupied by the aliens an hour from now, the political infrastructure would be meaningless. (2)  If the scenario centered around a disgruntled member of a secret mystic order seeking to steal their artifacts and summon a world-ending daemonic creature, we would need next to no information about the world outside the relevant secret sanctums of that Order, but we would need a lot of members of that Order. (3) 

 

(1)  Ant-Man

 

Ant-Man worked because _no one_ -- at least on the writing staff-- asked any questions about the world around them.  Here's a hint about what would have happened if they had:

 

Ant-Man would have drown his tiny little lungs because plumbing does _not_ work that way.  _AT_ _ALL_.  Not even _remotely_ that way.  Not a little bit.  The only thing they got right was that there is water in there.

 

How bad was it?  I hated the movie because of it.  Seriously.  The entire plot hinged on the success of that scheme, and that was so brain-splittingly impossible -- super-powers or no (unless they involved both gills and chlorine filters), the very fact that the rest of the movie wasn't possible without that total crap fest of a scene just ruined the whole thing for me.  Looking at it from the perspective of "maybe he just went sub-atomic and slipped through the walls?"  It was okay, and the humor did nothing but help.

 

I would think, given your questioning of the how does this happen /  how does this work that goes on toward infinite regression, you would have had similar issues with that movie.  The super stuff?  No problem.  Totally on board with shrinking gas and talking to ants microscopic eco suits.  Not knowing how plumbing works and hinging your entire movie on it? Gad, that was stupid.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

(2)  Avengers

 

Also not the best example of your point about needed an unneeded details, because of the known details:  New York, right?  I'm told that, like, over two hundred people live there.

 

 

Where the Hell were they?!

 

An entire skyscraper, populated by the people in this one window office.  Neat!

 

"Well, Chief, I don't know how we did it, but we evacuated the most populous city in the country-- the one with the worst traffic infrastructure in the free world-- in only eight minutes.  We're just awesome.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

(3)  Doctor Strange

 

The movie about the wizard with six month's experience who went on to kick the ass of Satan's grandpa?

 

To address your point, though, we had _two_ members of that mystic order.  The Bald Chick Who Died, and the big guy.  There were some sparring partners thrown in between.  No names, no details, and I couldn't remember a name or a face if the mortgage was riding on it, even before the movie was over.

 

I think "it exists" and "it's kind of hard to find" were the only things we really learned about the order.  Nothing else was really coherent about it:  Here are magic books.  You may read any of them, except for these.  No; they're also magic books, but we need a humorous scene where you are forced to steal them magically so the audience knows you're learning.

 

And what good did they do him?  He had no special magic or tricks gained from the randomly-forbidden books.  I say "randomly," because no matter what excuse is used (I think Harry Potter used the same gag; I'll have to check with the wife), unless there's only one book in the universe with the one unholy spell, I feel certain there's enough magic in the "unforbidden" books to wreck the world three times over, making the idea of "trust you with some but not all" more a hard-to-swallow schlep than anything else.

 

No; I think we did okay making that movie without actually learning any of the things you think we learned.  After all, there was an SFX budget, and people came to see stuff get folded and blown up; not to learn about a fictional secret circus.

 

 

And I suspect that gamers will behave similarly:  I came here to use super powers and save lives; not to find out about the Delta Hub or where the Radio Shack used to be.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

But if I want a game where political machinations are used to take over the rulership of a nation, I need to know a lot about that nation's politics and key players. (4)  If it's a very insular nation, I may not need to know much, if anything, about the rest of the world.

 

(4)  Black Panther

 

The political machinations seem to be "if you want it, fight me for it."  And of course, the deep and convoluted "hide the fact that we're rich."  Don't get me wrong-- out of your list, it was the only movie I enjoyed, mostly because it was a lot of fun and, like all the marvel movies-- well-lit.  (and hearing Forrest Whitaker say "deh pdins will now jab de powah ob de blek pinta stdipped eweh."  That was priceless.      Yeah; I know:  he worked really hard on a convincing accent, and he did an amazing job, but next to an entire cast who just kind of 'winged it,' it came off as silly.  Sorry.  Not his fault.  Just the way it was.  )

 

At any rate, there really weren't any political machinations there, either: it was a revenge story, played out against a pretend political scene of "hide the gold" and filled with special effects.  (really cool ones: I have to think that the Sand Table would be the _ultimate_ TTRPG accessory!  Man, that was cool! )

 

It had lots of stuff, but "beat me up to be king" isn't really...  well, it's not deep or particularly involved.  The answer?  Let's run up to some really big guy who _also_ wants to beat him up to become king, and hope he won't stand for the other guy who actually beat the ever-loving hell out him actually... well, being the king he is now legally entitled to be.  I suppose that's...   _sort of_ a machination?  maybe?

 

 

All this is doing is kind of working to the point I was pushing above:  Focus on the story, trust the people playing the game, and they will ultimately fill it with their own perceptions.  As their vision of what's really cool is _always_ going to be far cooler (to them, at least) and more personally-rewarding than anything we could force on them, I say we take advantage of it:  trust them to wing a thing here and there.  Give them a framework that their answers should fit into, for consistency going forward, and let them run with it.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If I were writing this scenario for my own group, I can likely narrow down what they will ask about, and no big deal if I make it up on the fly for them.  But if I am handing it to a rookie GM to play with a random gaming group?  Not so much - the scenario needs to be much more complete.

 

I don't agree.  I don't disagree, either.  Not exactly either.  Not exactly-- you know, this isn't just binary, here: it's a matter of "I think differently on this matter."  I get where you're coming from; seriously.  I do.  But I also got where you were coming from with the idea that people want something playable out of the box and I got where you were coming from with people don't have a lot of time and several other places from where you were coming and from where other people were coming and so on----

 

but all combined-- all of those things combined-- 

 

tells me that running everything to detail is _exactly_ the wrong thing to do.  I mean, look what it did for HERO's presence on the shelf, or popularity as a game.  We ran into details and minutiae so far and so variously that I am willing to be you'd be hard-pressed to remember an occasion where you wish you'd known every single one of those new details.  That is to say: it went further than likely _anyone_ ever needed it to.

 

And the people stayed away in record numbers.

 

I don't think repeating that process with an introductory adventure is the way to bring them back.  I could be backwards in my thinking, but in summation:  we tried that.  It went over like a lead balloon.

 

I think we need to do what the still-popular and newly-popular stuff has done:  give the GM and the players some tools, but not make them wade through a sourcebook to play an adventure.

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

One way to reduce the relevance of Hepzibah's resources and residents would be to do what the MCU typically does (what a lot of comic books would do as well).  The Dome rising isn't at, or near, the start of the adventure.  It's the start of the finale, and it's an immediate, urgent threat.  There's no time to do much more with the residents of Hepzibah than immediate rescue efforts, their politics won't matter as there will be no time for political action and we have to find and deal with the Skull right now, not over the course of several days of investigations and interactions sprawling over the entire town.

 

As I mentioned before, we started out with this premise.  I'm okay with it, as I find "strange radiation battery chemicals" during an experimental phase much more satisfying to the creation of supers than I do "this solid, impenetrable object caused certain people to fly and develop eye lasers.  Do not use this material for car bumpers or food storage containers."

 

I'm not sure where we ended up with "game starts at domerise; go!  But we did.  No one voted it down, so that's roughly where I intend to start.  I still would like to see at least one scene prior to it going up.  Honestly, MuckMan is created because he's investigating the toxic waste that we have presumed was related to the manufacture of the batteries that are being used to power the dome.  if nothing else, I think there should be a MuckMan sighting, and perhaps even a "you've been persuaded to help investigate the scene at the Sunset Farm irrigation reservoir" scene where the players can learn of the pollution-- possibly even get a lead or two on its source: find a milk truck being driven by members of the Skulls being pulled up near the pond and emptied into the dried, orange-brown scrub growing uphill of the farm, perhaps.

 

But that's just me.  The conversation went elsewhere, and while I am happy to write this up, to keep it as a "group project" sort of thing, I have decided I am not going to dicate the plot or the other characters.  I contributed the Raven, but even then, only guidelines: no dictates.  

 

On the subject of the Raven:  Do we want to write up his bike per the vehicle rules, let it be a simple focus for ground movement, or just "let him have it?"

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

But that's not the adventure we designed.  We designed an adventure where the Dome is up, and its impact on the town is relevant, pretty early on.  We created a scenario where the town's residents and resources are very much relevant to the game.  Perhaps that scope is more than we can reasonably incorporate in a published scenario that needs to consider various likely PC actions, and we should reassess the timeline, and the core of the scenario.

 

fair enough, so long as a consensus either way is reached.  I think we've either already lost some interested eyes or are failing to attract more.  The view ratio is getting smaller.  

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Maybe Chaos is not created by the Dome, but by experiments on the energy supply planned to feed the dome (perhaps their powering up occurs when the heroes interfere with those experiments).  Maybe Prince A Pal is an attack designed to draw the heroes, and city resources, away from the theft of those last crucial elements needed to raise the Dome - the world outside is carrying on business as usual, and the Skull targets the grand opening, not linked to his plans, much less the Dome, in any way beyond providing a convenient target.  When the Dome goes up shortly thereafter, the Skull makes his demands, and the city has an hour to comply.  If not, perhaps the loss of voter homes and lives in the outer neighbourhoods will make you more reasonable...

 

Again, if we get a consensus, that's where I'll go with it.  Honestly, that writes a bit better than a "lift your spirits party" in a city under siege.  I like the party, but given the situation, I would think Icarus Park would be a better venue, as people could do a BYOB with their own grills and whatever might be fixing to go bad in their failing freezers.  No need for artificial lighting; no kitchen restrictions, and an easier place to evacuate (no walls) when Chaos shows up (as we've used CJ already at Prince A. Pals during the distraction).

 

If we do this, then I think Chaos should be "powered" prior to the dome raising, perhaps by the Skull intentionally exposing them by posting them as his personal guard while he's messing with the Radiation X material to build his dome-driving batteries.  (for what it's worth, this project: creating his own super-pets, would be a valid reason for him to allow the hospital to continue to function and have access to utilities, which I feel is vital: new players aren't going to be jazzed if they can't save the people because the wounded have no hospital to which they can be delivered.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

No time to debate with city council or research tech companies now (that should all have happened before), but perhaps we can get that one last clue we needed from agents just captured to finally piece together the location of the Skull's secret base, so we can get there before he carries out his threat and the population of Hebzibah is markedly reduced.

 

I'd like them to perhaps find his initial research base: maybe where he got started, so they can get some ideas, maybe read some notes-- who knows.  I would still like the dome to go up, and the chaos (and grandstanding) that ensures, complete with a final climactic battle once the heroes figure out where is the mcguffin and how to stop it.  (for what it's worth, I think it should be more than just "bash it!" Perhaps it's even protected by a mini-dome of some sort, and in the midst of a climactic battle, the team has to figure out how to gain access or shut the thing down _without_ Hulk tactics.

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I guess it will be a short campaign for our poor tumour-infested PCs, huh?  They failed to protect Hepzibah before the scenario even got started.

 

you're mixing worlds.  The cancer comment was in response to how great such a disintegration device would be in the real world with regard to waste resources.  I agreed with that, with the realization that, at least to the state of California, being born causes cancer; this probably would, too.  Still sad...

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Since it doesn't destroy earth and stone, Clodoppus, the Brick of Organic Granite should be able to just walk through, shouldn't he?  "No, it's impenetrable" solves that one too.  [Mind you, it doesn't help when Hydro Lass tries to seep through just like rainfall does...]  A lot of this can also be avoided if the Dome is not around for very long, as I consider it.  It doesn't matter as much whether rain, or air, seep through, especially if it would take a few hours for it to do so.

 

i think I agreed with this earlier today.  If not, well I still do.

 

 

 

 

And going forward:

 

This will be likely the _last_ such response I make for a while.  The two hours this took would have been far more productive actually writing on the adventure.

 

 

Please understand.

 

 

 

Duke

 

 

 

You're welcome.  Honestly, when it comes to the newer editions, it's unusual to find something I can help with. 

 

 

 

Duke

I'm at work so I can't reply as I'd like,  UT if you look at the first page or two, we floated the idea of having two encounters (unspecified) prior to the dome going up.  More later, save that I agree with Hugh that simply "impenetrable" as opposed to "does damage" solves a lot of issues. 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

 

 

The various names of the Dragon Queen applied at different stages of her long life and career. At birth she was Tsai Min (Yin Li was her mother's name). After she first transformed from human to dragon she was called Dragon-Min. When she became an organized-crime leader in Japan she took the name Shiko-Me. Then she joined VIPER: "She is now known as the Dragon Queen, because of her ability to transform, and is a co-leader of the Serpent Syndicate with Python." (VIPER p. 86)

 

 

Between folks like you, Hugh, and my buddy Brent, it's no wonder Canada has no enemies.  You're the most cooperative, helpful people on earth!   

 

 

 

 

One of the best bits I ever kept jotted in a notebook back when I had time to make maps is this simple bit here:

 

1000 square feet = 93 square meters.  It's not _exactly_ right, but its far closer than will ever need scrutinizing.

 

If you're using 6e, then you're looking at 1000 ft sq = 93 hexes.  If you want to get really titchy, call your kitchen a "lab."

 

 

I guess I don't get to the city very often.  The very idea of a 350 sq ft house is appalling to me; I'm typing this from my desk in the corner of the  484 ft sq spare _bedroom_.....

aghhh...

 

It's the gift that keeps on giving.....

10 minutes ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

The 4th ed VIPER sourcebook also had a villain who could turn into a dragon.

 

 

Yep.  Lin Yi / Dragon Min / The Dragon Queen.

 

Never was sure just which name the creator wanted us to use.....

On July 22, 2019 at 9:31 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I don't think we need sample characters so much as we need campaign standards.

 

Evening folks.  Been pulling some notes out of here and so as to re-work my work sheet, but I'm about to call it a night.  Got this far (page 3, I think it was), and found a couple of things I wanted to clarify / be clarified on:

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

  Is a "typical Super" firing around 8-10 DCs, with 15-20 defenses (10-12 resistant), CVs of 6-8 and SPD of 4-5?  Or is the typical Super tossing around 15+ DCs, with defenses in the 30-35 range (15-20 resistant) with CVs of 10-12 and SPD 5-7?  The baseline is needed for anyone to contribute characters that will fit within the setting.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, Hugh, but I _insist_ on sample characters.  There are too many complaints all over this forum from _all_ of us-- you included-- that for all the examples, etc, in the rules, there simply aren't enough genuine built characters to serve as examples of expected or predicted power levels.  And frankly, while I personally believe role playing as a whole has been eaten alive by video game *ahem*   RPGs, there is still the chance that we might get someone completely new to gaming.  Granted, that's not likely to happen unless he stumbles in, never having heard of the HERO System before, and therefore never hearing all the negativity related to its over-complexity and math-heavy nature.

 

Throwing around terms like "Damage Classes"  (which I still don't use anywhere else but these boards, as I've never been keen on the implication of "same thing" it establishes between "normal" and "killing" damage.  Start blurring those, and players stop seeing one as "specifically deadly."  Heroes get a lot more blasé about what's okay, etc, etc.)

 

I feel examples will serve new players just as well as they served us, way back with 1e: "well, let's look at these guys and see kind of where they're running,"  particularly such abstract ideas as numerical scores for will power and agility, compounded by "twice as good every 5 points---,"  then moving into things like Active Points / Defense Categories / campaign camps, etc....     Relying solely on the abstract is _not_ going to make this adventure any sort of proof that this system is not as hard as they've heard it was.  If I've got to re-read CC, we can expect to wait a couple of months for characters, because time isn't really "spare" for me lately.   Those are the things we can introduce via sample characters-- something complete and explained that can be studied as needed, easily, and the concepts and names can be introduced bit by bit.  Additionally, I _insist_ that the sample characters have both AP and RP listed, simply because it makes a nice teaching tool.

 

 

 

Quote

 

Does the Dome need stats, or can it simply be "impenetrable"?  It's clearly not airtight, and I am assuming it can still rain on Hebzibah. 

 

I'm going to try another tack here:

 

You tell me.  You, Sir, tell me if the dome needs stats or if it's simply a mcguffin / action control device to limit the sandbox for new players.  Initially, I had no intention of statting it up, and was content to go with Steriaca's "it does lots of damage, and will kill you if you don't stop trying to get through it."  It was simple for new players to get their minds around, and served as yet another example that every single thing in the HERO System does _not_ have to be statted up simply because it can be.

 

 

Okay, let me explain why I'm still up (I prefer to have been in bed ninety minutes ago, given my work schedule):

 

I had, earlier this evening, begun preliminary work on the "Welcome to Hepzibah" portion -- the intro, as it were.  Doing _nothing_--- and I mean _nothing_-- no flavor, no color, no editing, no warmth-- just putting the words to paper (in a manner of speaking   ) but answering the questions you have deemed essential for players and GMs to know simply to operate in this city, I arrived at forty-nine pages.   Dude!  Forty nine?!   Looked at another way, 5/6 of the targeted _maximum_ size for this project.   I do not know the minds of men, but I _guarantee_ they just don't need that sort of information overload to have a good time.

 

So for kicks, I looked at some of the "competition."  I bought a couple of PDFs of ICONS supplements and a couple of others.

 

Average size?  About twelve pages.  TWELVE!   That even includes the write-ups, and one (had this seriously janky "color-coded threat-level-advances-with-time-passed; add/remove polyhedral dice because of what time it is" weirdness going on as well, and fit it right in there.

 

I looked at some of the old standards:  Super Villain contest (meh), Target HERO, even Wings of the Valkyrie.  _None_ of them-- most of which were much loved in the day (well, I didn't like Supervillain Contest), and none of them-- _none_ of them, even Wings of the Valkyrie, the module so "mature and sophisticated and edgy" as to have been a subject of discussion for several years-- came _close_ to sixty pages.  Valkyrie was a "whopping" 32 pages.  Thirty two!

 

You have to get into 4e to find something much bigger than.  Pyramid in the sky ran like 121 pages.  Granted, the first five were an "about this book" type thing, and the adventure part was _done_ before the sixty page mark.  The rest of the pages were were maps and _tons_ or characters and organizations and histories and some really sweet-looking Traveller-inspired ships drawn by our dear friend Mr. Ruggels.   (Nice work, Scott!).

 

Granted, the Champions Presents and Heroic Adventures books managed to prove you can fit _three_ adventures into 120 pages---

 

most of which suggests that a considerable amount of our "necessary details" just aren't real necessary.

 

 

Why do we remember these adventures?  Well we didn't have someone telling us it was a Marvel World or a DC world or a Gold Key world or a Marvel Movie world or any of the stuff:

 

It was exactly what we _wanted_ it to be, because all those "necessary details" were left out--- err, left up to us.  The Adventures told us what sections of the map were what (when there was a map, that is) and gave us the location of key set pieces, and the rest was "some jungle" or "some city" or "some deep cold ocean" to be filled in as we needed, and invariably, we filled it in with something that we thought was cool as hell.

 

At any rate, I scrapped it.   The whole thing except for the first couple of pages I linked to a few days back, and am starting over.

 

To that end, I am asking _you_, Sir:  does the dome need to be statted, or is it just a thing?   If there's anything these last ten pages have taught us, it doesn't matter which way anyone goes, you're going to have a problem with it that will lead to more and more paragraphs of ultimately unnecessary fluff for the adventure, so in the interest of avoiding that and getting some actual progress made, I ask, with all courtesy due any civil participant:

 

Does the dome need to be statted, or is it just an impenetrable damage device?

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

Quote

 

Imagine if we could have a dome like this that destroys all that comes in contact with it.  No more landfills.  No more plastics that take centuries to biodegrade.

 

Yes; it would be uber-sweet.  Right up until we find out that the energies it emits cause cancer of the cancer to anyone within seventeen thousand miles of it or something like that.  

 

 

 

 

Quote

how many agents will have the loyalty to keep running back and forth, hoping the Dome does not spring back up and turn him into ashes.

 

For what it's worth, I'm ditching that.  We've already shortened the length of the siege to avoid having to deal with a black market and the rise of a new social order, etc.  The Skull doesn't plan to be here long enough to exhaust whatever supplies he's already laid in.

 

 

Quote

Then we get the question how the ground touching it survives, especially as it must go below ground level or people could just tunnel out.

 

 

No; not really.  We can accept "that it just is" when it comes to the idea of not having to fully stat it out; why should we have a problem with "it just doesn't" with regard as to why the earth above it doesn't fall into it like grain through a funnel.  And after wasting several hours filling something the _size_ of an adventure book with nothing but what amounts to a thin sourcebook for yet another setting, I can tell you that any HERO-mechanics builds to explain this phenomenon are going to be reduced to "The Skull built it so that it wouldn't."

 

 

 

Good night, All.

 

If I'm still a bit black, forgive me.  I thought some writing would lift my spirits, but that ended up just adding frustration to the mix.

 

 

 

I think the lower mouth box might contain an actual iron....

You'll have to add me to the witch fire, then.  I thoroughly enjoyed it.  

 

(sorry.)

 

 

(You're referring to Green Lantern, right?  I heard nothing but good things about Speed Racer, but I didn't see it myself as, like you, I found the cartoon to be more annoyance than entertainment)

 

 

19 hours ago, death tribble said:

If you can post some movies that had below 50% and were released after 2000, then I can see if I can see if anything applies.

 

I recall the Speed Racer cartoon which I disliked and the film which I really could not care less about.

 

2 hours ago, death tribble said:

 

PERSECUTE !

KILL THE HERETICS !

 

 

Tribble:

 

It's about the _unpopular_ opinion, Amigo.

 

Let's try it again in Englandish:

 

Ye Olde Unpoupular Oupinioune.

 

There.  Sorry it was originally suggested in American.  

 

 

Write-ups for the Raven, for MuckMan, for CyberJack, The Skull, and Chaos.

 

Raven and MuckMan should not outshine the supers, as discussed above.  Raven's schtick is skills-- First and foremost, he was an investigative reporter, and was primarily on the crime beat, so think skills like Detective / Deduction, which leads to a couple of questionable skills like Security Systems and Interrogation, city knowledge, Streetwise (is that still a skill in 6e? If not, go with a knowledge of the underworld in and around Hepzibah), stealth, and a couple of combat skill levels-- he's not a martial artist, exactly, but he's been in enough scraps over the years to hold his own.  Add Stealth and Concealment.  Remember, we're going for _broad_ skills, so if you want to add some other skill, first consider if it falls under the larger heading of one of these skills.

 

Gear includes an armored long coat, his respirator / air filter, goggles with IR and telescopic (and digital camera), one .45 automatic, a pair of "non-lethal" gun-type weapons, and maybe a fist weight or short truncheon to add a die or two to his STR damage.  Considering an electric motorcycle as his mode of transport: fast, quiet, and light enough to just barely be man-portable for STR 10.  

 

I had no intention of giving him powers, but _possibly_ something to suggest the extensive nerve and tissue damage-- perhaps some "Stun Defense" ( Built as CON, only to protect against being Stunned) to indicate enough generalized nerve damage that he doesn't feel pain as acutely as he should (I'd rather not give him a power that actually reduces the damage he takes, beyond his Armor and his regular PD / ED scores: remember he's for the most part a normal guy, and of course we don't want him to outshine the PCs ).

 

Remember that we're looking for clean, relatively simple, easy-to-follow write-ups.  If something has so many modifiers as to make determining exactly what the hell the power actually does an exercise in parsing and diagraming sentences, lose that build and start over.

 

I'm not entirely certain about MuckMan, but the name suggests a highly-malleable form (Stretching and some sort of limited Desolid, perhaps, to represent the ability to squeeze through small openings?  Him I see as a damage sponge or sorts, with perhaps some heightened movement (some sort of "running" based on his Stretching distance, maybe?  Give a neat "oozing around" tone to the movement?).

 

CyberJack-- well we'll leave that one to Steriaca, as it's his contribution.  Hopefully Ninja-Bear has found a way to upload his take on MuckMan as well.

 

If it's feasible, I'd really like to see write ups at two distinct power levels:  a level for "we've never played before, and are starting with the recommended level of points"  and a level for "We're pretty experienced, and are running maybe a sixty points hotter than recommended for new guys."

Sorry, guys.

 

Services are over; I'm back home (mostly).  Spent some time with their kids and grands, but I didn't want to involve myself in their personal grief; didn't feel right.

 

I'll give what I've missed a good going over, but I have skimmed the new stuff, and I offer this, which I think should work in any model:

 

CyberJack was hired because of his reputation with electronics, computers, and robotics.  CyberJack has "always" had superpowers, but has always used them in a way beneficial to himself: that is to say, he uses them "career-wise" rather than going all spandex commando.  Currently he works with a company working on neural interfaces with computers, and he-- for whatever reasons figure into his past: little brother lost a leg?  Who knows?-- has pushed for and, given his reputation in robotics, succeeded in becoming the head of a new branch of research into lightweight neurally-connected prosthetics.  The Skull is looking for someone particularly knowledgeable in neural interface, etc-- as he's hit something of a roadblock designing his helmet: the whole thing works, but he doesn't want the potential weaknesses of having to throw switches on a gauntlet or turn dials on a belt buckle.  

 

Around this time, CJ's funding is pulled as the company realizes that neural interface doesn't have immediate mass-market profit potential (costs are astronomical; interfaces require customization, etc-- whatever works).  The Skull recruits CJ, offering to fully-fund his research as soon as his "pet project" is complete.  Incorporating a low-level cumulative EGO drain makes a single-command mind control "Trust me" much more effective on CJ, once the helmet is complete, giving us _one_ reason he might stay around.  He might also be swayed, once the dome goes up, by the "the spoils of the city will be yours" approach that woos the street gangs.  After all, he'd have unfettered access to whatever hardware and research he wanted, and the wealth of the city to continue work.

 

As CJ assists with various assemblies leading to the perfection of the interface, the Skull realizes that there is too much that CJ can actually make work yet not be able to fully explain; he realizes CJ has cyberkinetic powers, giving him a second hook to dig in with: "you haven't even begun to consider your potential beyond personal wealth!  You haven't begun to consider what gifts you could offer mankind, or what tribute you could claim.  I have understood you since before you knew me.  I have sought you ought, so that you, and those like you, can, under my tutelage, reach their truest potential, and become the masters of their destinies!  Anyone can carve a life for themselves simply be resolving to spend the rest of their lives waking and going to work for others more driven then they themselves are.  I can teach you how to use every tool available to you, and become the great beacon you were meant to be."

 

Or words to that effect.  I'm not at my best right now; forgive that, please.

 

it's not until the command comes in during the chaos at Prince A. Pals to "kill them if you can!" that he begins to question just who and what The Skull is, and begins to realize that there is more to this Dome thing that just demonstrating superiority and looting the town.

 

 

I'm not even sure I made my point clearly.  I'll review all this better later.

 

Oh!  Scott:  I missed the Post Office today-- I was scrambling to get south for the services and all, and totally forgot.  I'll try to stretch a lunch break during the week and drop it into the PO there.  I apologize; I was distracted.

 

 

 

Duke

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I thought the early stages were kept well under wraps by the Skull.  How many Supers are tapped into the "underworld grapevine"?  I would probably start with the premise that the campaign is centered in the city of Hepzibah, and characters should be constructed with this in mind.  Another reason for a decent description of the locale so players can see  where their characters might live and work.

 

2 hours ago, steriaca said:

We have to support GMs who decide that the place is more a "cool place to visit". No offence to thoes who actually want to use the setting as a periment place.

 

 

Not really reading tonight; just here-- well, more out of habit, at this point, but I did skim a bit.

 

To both of you:

 

a lot of "set your campaign here" type info, I feel, flies in the face of the original idea of this entire thing.  As for "what would a new player ask," that's hard to say.  I've got an entire group of new players since the start of the summer that has played at least weekly and a couple of "bonus" sessions while I was out on the summer break at my job (can't turn down a mandatory vacation now, can we?    ).  To date, they know almost nothing about Campaign City, not even where it might actually be located in the US.   More than that, from our very first group (of which I seem to be the last surviving member  ), that question didn't come up for _years_-- real ones; not game ones-- .  It only came up when someone built a speedster and wondered how long it would take him to run to New York.  At that point, we had to know how far away that was.  

 

But I digress.  They want to know their immediate surroundings-- and that's about it.  As before, I am _not_ at all opposed to making a setting book.  However, the realist in me compares the work (which would add to the real world work I already have on my plate) versus the fact that there is _no_ market for this information: Champions is a dead game.  No; I don't say that lightly, and were it not for recent events, probably wouldn't say it at all, but let's face it:  it's a dead game.  Even the company store has zero CC books-- zero _any_ actual books, save a few random sourcebooks (the majority of which aren't for the current edition), which shoots the "boxed set" idea in butt right off.  Don't think I'm begging off.  I really don't mind doing this, and tend to rather enjoy it-- and, as noted in another thread, I am well out of practice for larger audiences, and look forward to the opportunity to practice a bit.

 

But doing an in-depth sourcebook for a dead game?  That's likely going to be back-burnered for a long, long time.  (I have to level with you: I can't figure out why the San Angelos guy wants to to a new book, given the current market conditions; I have to assume it's a "personal satisfaction" thing, which I can totally get behind)

 

I think all we really need are the "action locations" in detail, a rough overview of the town, and maybe-- _maybe_ a city map with _lots_ of white space that we can fill in as the need arrises.

 

In the meanwhile, If you really must have a real-world location, I'm thinking this valley would make a great place, replacing Grand Junction , Orchard Mesa, Clifton, and possibly running so far as Fruita.  Though we don't have to eat up Fruita.  We could duplicate the valley I like at the point of that scenic loop in the second picture and let the city grow south just a bit instead.   (perhaps making Grand Junction a bedroom community, and adding a "split" to the river that carries water through the valley and down into Hepzibah.  That way, we can get a neat view of the city as it grows up through this scenic area here (which is actually near Fruita, but we can either incorporate Fuita, or duplicate the valley.  I'd rather duplicate the valley, personally, but it's not a strong opinion.  I like the idea of looking down the valley and seeing the city rise, wind farms creeping up through the valley, and solar farms (and regular farms) out on the flats.

 

Enjoy it, but I'm totally willing to bet very few new players will give a rip.  Still, it could be done with a small page count, so long as we stay details-lite  (Does anyone remember where Viper's Nest was located?  Did anyone ever ask?  To this day, does anyone actually _care_? )

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

One of the things I am noticing is there is still a lot of comic-book thinking, rather than Superhero movie thinking, especially in terms of The Skull.

 

 

I'm kind of seeing that, too.  I think I can tame that a bit.

 

 

2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

Rather than imagining cartoony art, imagine an actor in the roles. Don’t think Costumes, yet, but actor, and equipment first. I am imagining the art as looking like a marvel movie, with good lighting, but little to no Spandex at first n

 

 

With you there, sort of.  I mean, I don't disagree with you, I just can't figure out what defines a "Marvel Movie" other than superheroes, good lighting, and Samuel Jackson.

 

 

Gotta run.  I'll do something with this soon, I promise.  I'm just trying to get my mind off tomorrow's ceremonies.  

 

 

 

 

 

Duke

 

I have no idea when it came out, but I am the guy that liked Waterworld.  Huge fan of the post-apocolyptic genre anyway (not you, Gamma World), and I thoroughly enjoyed it: went to see it three times.

If anyone is shopping opinions:

 

"Draw!" is always Phase 12.  Fast draw, lightning reflexes, and skill levels come into play (obviously). 

 

Duels were handled OCV VS OCV.

 

 

Dex, as far as action order, did not come into play. Instead each character received a bonus / penalty to his hit location based on how much he made /failed a Dex roll by. 

 

That is, all shots were assumed to be called shots to target center of mass.  A bonused character could "walk" his hit location roll up or down the location chart a number of times equal to his bonus minus his opponent's bonus (or plus his opponent's penalty. 

 

It sounds more complex than it is, but the idea was that Duels did not involve dodges, dives, or other DC-based maneuvers: two (or more) facing off, relying on nothing more that being fast enough to kill the other guy. 

 

The dancing on the location chart (something we generally don't use, but it's extremely appropriate for a duel) repesented fake-out, twisting, hunching, and other shifts of stance _ in place _, feet on the ground, to minimize or avoid getting hit by the other guy: things that weren't "cowardly" after accepting a challenge.  It also represented being just that much better, of needing less time to place an accurate shot.

 

Not saying its the only way to fly, but it worked pretty good for us, and encouraged an "all-in" aggressiveness that seemed appropriate, and totally allowed (and often resulted in) both characters getting shot if the skills were good enough. 

 

The biggest problem we had was that there's not a great way to represent "he shit first" without hurting some feelings, _especially_ on the rare occasion that two player characters squared off (which is why we turned "fast draw" into an OCV bonus for the purpose of dueling-- and _only_ for the purpose of duelling).   

"native American" and "native America," and of course the Captain America reference. 

 

It's akin to referring to Rick Astley as a folk art performer, demonstrating the traditional dances of ancient Caucasia. 

Neither.  It's just a guy having fun with a pun and some creative skills. 

I let that ride more as a feat of strength than anything else.  If you've got a stunned opponent, and you can hoist him onto the bar, we'll it just doesn't take any special skill to push him, particularly when you're usually holind him by the shirtback and belt. 

Hey, folks.

 

Just checked in to sort of drift through new stuff.  Heart's still not in it (Funeral is Saturday, to give some family a couple days to get there).  I expect to be better-focused next week.  Thanks, Steriaca, Hugh, et all.

 

Hugh, after this, I may have to do a six-hundred page sourcebook on Hepzibah.    I'll even go into great detail as to how the "h'' was lost from Hephzibah.    Sadly, I won't have time for such a project until shortly after _I'm_ dead and gone, but it's nice to dream.....

 

Looks like we have a reasonable story coming together.

 

And Hugh: don't sweat the over-developed stuff.  I'm not a numbers guy, and I'd become violently dangerous if I was chained to one of these screens all day, so I'm not much of a programmer, either.   This is how I create:  I dump it _all_ on the table, then pick out the parts that go together, then tear out the parts of that I don't like, and repeat.  Over-developing an idea in the early stages is _fine_.  Ultimately, it may be one of those details that makes it to the final round, affixed to an entirely different construct.  

 

As for the Raven, Sir: you are correct.  He has some talents and a couple of nifty gadgets, but no actual super-powers.  In fact, he is disabled (the lung and eye damage) to the point that, without his skills and gadgets, he might well qualify as incompetent.  Good things he's super-competent.    I hold as one of the cornerstones of GM'ing that a helpful NPC should in way _ever_ outshine a PC, period.  To that end, I think Muckman should actually be quite powerful, but "in his own way."  Give him some serious stretching, some movement, some kind of damage sponge abilities, perhaps even a limited Desolid-- but don't give him any breadth of Skill, and certainly don't make him particularly competent as a combatant.    Again: make him impressive, possibly even dangerous (lowered INT, maybe? SPD 2?  Psych Lims?), but when it comes to figuring out clues or belting the bad guy, he must _not_ outshine the PCs.

 

I think I'll try to get something started next week.  In the meantime, you good folks keep plopping down things you do and don't like.

 

 

 

Duke

 

52 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

So how does a fellow with all of these problems manage to build a trained army of agents who carry out the initial stages of his plans so perfectly?  He is:

 

 - A megalomaniac -  why does he need all this help?

 

Because megalomania is not solipsism, nor is it a belief in godlike infallibility.   You can believe you are the greatest; you can believe you are unstoppable, and still accept that you can't be in two places at once.  Fortunately, you're the greatest, so it's nothing for you to direct a platoon of lesser beings to take care of your "light work."

 

 

52 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 - Paranoid - why would he believe these numerous agents would be in any way loyal?

 

Let's back up a minute, because I just replied a few minutes ago to you asking a similar-but-opposite question.

 

 

These issues start small.  They get more intense as the Skull relies more and more on his mind-enhacing device.   Further, remember the scenarios I suggested with him offing the "spies and traitors" and such?  It's pretty damned clear he does have issues trusting a large number of them.  One he has "dealt with the spies" to his satisfaction, he's fine with the guys that are left-- assuming they pulled the trigger on cue, as demanded.

 

 

52 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 - Enraged, combined with lack of regard for life - how has he managed to go this long without killing agents often enough for others to question their allegiances?

 

I refer you back to the first part of the previous answer.  Not flippantly, because I understand that you were asking all these questions at once.

 

52 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

He was stable enough to create this intricate plot, requiring many moving parts and a lot of activity by his agents.  How did his limitations not affect these preliminary stages?

 

Same.

 

52 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

It feels like we have a master planner initially, who descends into madness, with that descent, much more than the efforts of the PCs, foiling his plans.  All we need is a PC prepared to taunt his poor planning (true or not) and his Enraged should take out all of the equipment around him. 

 

Yep.  Lots of ways for a novice player to emerge victorious, as was promised.

 

If you like, when this is all over, we'll try to write one for the experienced, methodical, well-practiced player.

 

52 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

Rare, valuable scientific equipment that he took rather a long time to assemble, and which he relies upon to carry out his plans.  Just put it on the radio/TV/the newspapers - becoming Enraged does not require the target of that rage be present. 

 

What do his agents get that would motivate them to risk their lives daily just being near him?

 

Not having everyone they know put to death?  Just a theory, mind you.  We've been so busy answering statistics questions that actual relevant details had to be put on the back burner.  

 

52 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

  I could see them doing his bidding when they are being well-paid (but he first needed agents when he had no rep, and no resources to pay them), and not horribly treated, but once he starts killing his own agents in cold blood for minor failings, it seems much less likely that he can maintain a loyal cadre of agents,

 

First me, the you, suggest "defectors" as a plot point / source of clues.  Now you have a problem with the conditions that lead to defectors.  Dude.

 

52 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

especially when we have established that, once he has been angered, he holds that grudge - keeping out of The Boss's sight for a day or two so he can cool down isn't an option when he will never cool down.

 

It seems like one early target for his wrath should be Chaos, as we have established they do not follow instructions well, if at all.  Using that by arranging for them to obtain super-powers loosed on the Skull's enemies seems like a master planner who can control his impulses easily for long-term benefit.  The basket case suggested by those complications seems unlikely to have suffered Chaos to live long enough to see the Dome rise.

 

 

 

For what it's worth, I agree with the disadvantages given; I am not so sure I agree with the values suggested.  I also think, working within the story, that they don't all "come online" at once.  

 

 

And I'm done for the next few days.  I'm feeling to damned pissy right now.   Apologies to all.

 

 

Duke

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Minor attack one hit wonders works for a huge crowd scene of enemies.  This is also nice for the novice coming from the movies, where we often see hordes of mooks not really worthy of the hero's time.  One attack from a Super - down.  This may also be a good place for a sidebar on speeding up combats like this one - for example, not tracking robot BOD, just assuming one Super hit takes it down.  A normal hit by one takes, say, 5d6 normal damage - probably Stunned, and a bit bloodied, but we should end up with lots of injuries and no fatalities.  No real threat to the Supers, whose job is to protect the civilians.

 

That's sort of how I saw it, save I saw them as two-hit wonders, being as how they take no STUN and may still be able to flail a club even if badly battered.  SFX can change this:  Set it on fire?  Okay; one hit's enough: the wiring and motors and such will fry / melt before they have another turn (SPD2 okay with everyone?)

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

So why was it such a pain to dig them in the first time?  

 

It wasn't a pain; it's just that the average gang banger doesn't sign on because he loves manual labor.     What I was _thinking_-- and anyone with better ideas, jump in-- that there were initially "cornerstone" batteries that had to be laid every X far apart to create the initial field; other batteries were simply concealed at points between these "cornerstones."  For whatever reason, the cornerstone batteries-- maybe 30?  Doesn't really matter) had to be buried at "just the right depth"-- perhaps as little as a foot in some places and as much as three or four in others.  Make it inches; it straight-up doesn't matter, since the whole "this is where the Skull had us dig all them damned holes" is intended more as a clue than a physics lesson anyway.  Once the initial ring was active, those batteries that were simply scattered between these cornerstone locations would -- oh, Hell, _why_ does it matter?   There's batteries in the ground; bad guys put them there; they power the dome.   At any rate, once the first batteries resonated and brought the others on line and in "line," so to speak, there was energy enough to create the dome, modulate the "destructive pressure" and sink the batteries to their current depth of however far the PCs are determined to dig.  (should they decide to dig).  We're edging dangerously close to killing HERO all over again with unnecessarily stating out pointless shcrap.

 

Eh-- sorry about that.  I'm having an off day.  You have solid questions, but in the overall scheme of things, why does it matter why the bad guy didn't like digging holes?  Hell, I'm a good guy and I don't like doing it.  

 

Bear with the mood; details when I've hit everything I wanted to hit, and I'll try to be better-minded.  My heart's not in this at the moment, but it _is_ important to me.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If the death is to resonate with the players, it needs to be a character they have come to know, which is only viable through the events of Chapter 1.  I don't see this as "wow, they are serious", I see it as needless gore.  One of the Skull's hired henchmen, and one who is not very loyal at that, killing a guy for no apparent reason does not give me any feeling that the Skull is a greater threat.

 

The first dead guy _is_ important.  Possibly even a second one.  We can regulate and debate, but for any RPG scenario to go well, they players are obligated to invest a little bit in the story just as we the GMs are obligated to provide them with a reasonable adventure.  As many of the comments I've quoted have pointed out, movies and comics have lots and lots of ways to make death almost tasteful; almost antiseptic, and even leave room to wonder if death actually happened at all.  We need a dead guy or two just to drive home "people are currently dying."  We don't need a million of them; we don't need oozing wounds and dissented features and bits of circuit jammed through cracked-open craniums and into brain tissue or wires shooting through eyeballs to tie into the nervous system or anything like that, but we need a dead guy for the base line story.  In this case, it's not a matter of making the Skull a serious threat; it's a matter of making the entire situation a serious threat.  We can certainly dedicate some space in the GMing this Adventure section on how to sanitize out all the dead people; frankly, I think that will be easier than a section on "how to add dead guys in," and certainly more enjoyable to both write and read.  I am certainly open to doing that.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

How does a dead guy in one of many mobile animatronics further the Skull's plot?

 

If we stuck on a rail with the Skull and his plot, period, would you not be asking us why there is no other activity or life anywhere in this world, or how other characters may have aligned themselves and what they're doing?  This shallow jog is an answer to that:

 

The mayor is attempting to raise moral; the heroes go along with it, both because they agree the city needs a morale boost and because it seems right that a large gathering would have a higher potential of being targeted in some way (again, assuming the players have decided their characters are actually heroic and are concerned about the welfare of the citizens).  The Skull understands the danger of morale, and turns it instead into a chance to add more fear to the citizens.  

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Why should I (player or PC) care about some random NPC? 

 

Because not all the players will be heartless dicks Batman.  As mentioned, there is some small requirement upon the players to invest in the story.  Granted, we _could_ write a novel instead of an adventure, but the idea here was originally to demonstrate that HERO doesn't mandate complex, complicated, overthought anything.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Without answers to both questions, it's just gore and violence for no reason.

 

It's not without reason, anymore than any other demonstration is without reason.  Alternatively, we can not kill, not maim, or inconvenience anyone.  The Skull could put up a dome and say "this comes down when you all agree to make me your master.  E-mail me when you decide."  Then do absolutely nothing for the next several years.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Does the Skull pick someone specific to send a message?  Does the dead NPC provide an opportunity for investigation to advance the plot?  Was he chosen deliberately by the Skull to make a statement, or randomly by CyberJack just to add some mindless gore?

 

 

This makes some sense, making him a crime boss as well as a nutjob supervillain.

 

Ah!

 

I think I see the problem now.  You haven't actually been reading this since the beginning on the "perceptions" thread, or you would already have these answers.  To recap:

 

No; the Skull didn't say kill anyone specific.  More of a "terrorize as you will" order, though given his general nonchalance about killing, he may instead say "kill as many as you can" just to make sure the point is driven home to the public.

 

The dead NPC is a clue to the personality of CJ. He wasn't chosen by the Skull at all.  He wasn't selected at random.

 

He has been a crime boss after the first revision, I think.  Perhaps the second.  Granted, we may not have spelled it out in as many words, having ascertained that we were all more or less on the same page, so if you did happen to miss that, well that one's on us.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Why "off the others" if they are not disloyal?  Killing the leadership (with maybe one or two on the run) and co-opting their muscle makes a lot more sense than randomly killing goons for the sake of killing goons

 

Combination intelligence and paranoia.  He's paranoid about them being disloyal, which is almost practical given the recruitment add was "join me or end up like the two guys on your left."  Self-preservation in the heat of the moment doesn't necessarily mean loyalty, and he knows that.  He's also extremely paranoid that he may actually have some disloyal spies (like the guys smuggling in toilet paper--

 

NOTE ON THAT:   That's really only going to be viable if we decide the siege of the city will last several weeks.  Just sayin'.   Perhaps another note for the GM bin:  "If your players are having a _seriously_ hard time bringing the dome down, then a black market will develop."  In all seriousness, though, I think we may have to lose that.      )

 

He's also smart enough to know that he is, for all intents and purposes, surrounded.  The city can hold out for a while, but it will eventually need an influx of goods, even if it's just _soap_.  He also knows that the suits that signed up with him may well have signed up with him as self-preservation, and in all likelihood will sell him down the river for the same reasons.  Dead witnesses, dead informants, dead anyone-with-any-possibility-of-knowing-anything is the much more intelligent way to preserve his own self, at least as far as his paranoia allows him to take things.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If, with investigation, our PCs can track down one of the surviving gang leadership, he may be able to tell them how the Skull took down most of the leaders in one night, which his new powers, leaving the few lucky enough to escape with no choice but to hide until they could get out of Hepzibah - no mean feat with all their old muscle looking for them - and a fat bonus for delivering an enemy of the Skull.  Maybe the heroes even have to protect these mobsters from the Skull's thugs.

 

I may be misremembering this (I am a bit distracted), but didn't you shoot down "gang informant" just a couple days ago?

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

Have to say I am a bigger fan of him telling them nothing, just arranging for them to be in the right place where their powers develop almost immediately, throwing them into conflict with the PCs.  Perhaps the same genetics that make them prone to super-powers makes them prone to mental instability (the Skull finds similar genetic markers to his own), which is why they have banded together - they are similarly unstable, and work poorly with others outside their little clique.

 

That does ring nicely.  However, the Skull's megalomania would want them to know that he has "gifted" them with their powers, and the position prior to the powers would simply be the carrot to ensure their loyalty (at least until he is done with them).

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

It also feels like we are doing a lot of work to make the Skull a genius chemist when he's mainly using physics (skull blasters and grenades; the Dome) to carry out his plans.  Just having him take over current drug distribution seems like it would work fine (and the mundane chemistry required for a meth lab is child's play for him - he would have at least 'basic' (university level) skills in all sciences.

 

Agreed.  However, it's a far cry from "meth lab" to "mind-enhancement drugs" (real ones, that is).  In all honesty, I don't have a problem, given the hyper-intelligence angle, with him being a genius in eighty different fields.  What I _do_ have a problem with is breaking that into a hundred and sixty different skills when "Chemisty," "Physics", "genetics," and _possibly_ "Pharmacology"  will do.  I have a personal hatred of the ever-shattering Skills system in HERO, and if we're trying to demonstrate that "HERO isn't everything you've head it was," then I think "broad skills" is an excellent example of that.  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

#4 - old henchmen will know about the mines, but only those with him after the startup know about his new location.  I think I would keep his main base in the mines - too much hassle to move everything, and too little patience to delay his vengeance to do so.

 

This seems reasonable, but let's revisit it in a bit.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Ummmm...what did they mine in Hepzibah?

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1apJUODa7wzi7hyYsUe-XWRUYo-BofZj55Tt0hNqKvUs

 

First gold, then later coal.  If we want to have active mines still (I don't, as I don't think it will add more than places for the players to get lost), we might consider radioactives.  And now I'm pretty sure you've either got a really stressful day job, or joined in about mid-ways.  

 

nothing wrong with that, of course.  Frankly, I wish a few more would join in.  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

Are we distracting from the game with a dozen or so puns?

 

That's going to be up to the GM.  Personally, I saw it as rather grim-- almost creepy, but not out-of-supers creepy: people desperately pretending to be upbeat in the hopes that their cheered neighbors will then be able to cheer them back, nervous and shallow smiles and forced laughs in front of smiling plastic faces repetitively spouting the same canned greetings and joyous tidings through crappy-sounding speakers.

 

And then the killing started (or the attempted killing started).

 

 

Now as to their necessity:

 

No.  They are not necessary.  The exact population of Hepzibah is not necessary.  Why it's bothersome to dig a freakin' hole in rocky ground is, again, _not_ necessary.  But if we answer all those questions, we might as well finish out the campaign setting sourcebook and just include a sample adventure with it-- maybe something were the city gets put under a giant dome.  That's got potential.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

  Will the GM and players care to track a dozen (or two, or three, dozen - one set on each of a few floors) "slightly different-looking but all playing the same" kiddie characters? 

 

He will be tracking a dozen or so two-hit (one hit?) automatons.  I don't think it's going to be too terribly difficult, but again, the likely scenario is going to play as "the cackling plastic knight raises his right arm, and as his ridiculously-grinning head turns back and two, he again attempts to crush you beneath his fiberglass sword."  Like any other detail in any adventure ever, he'll use what he wants and not use what he doesn't want.  For what it's worth, I rather like the surreal moment of the "survivor's party"-- desperate to try to restore a sense of confidence, taking place in a goofy mini theme park.  We can include GM notes about possibly holding it at Bennigans instead.  At least there would be alcohol there.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

Twelve+ descriptions makes for a big sidebar.

 

While you make a very good point, I am compelled to take a moment to add:

F a sidebar.

 

A small section describing the set-up of the encounter is, of course, mandatory, and it's just as good a place as any to introduce these characters.  Twelve sentences:  There are twelve trademarked animatronic characters used to entertain guests and delight children.  Sir Fastention can be found between tables 4 and 5.  Sir Reil can be found on the left of the stage, near the steps;  Sir Tifyable stands on the opposite side. 

 

That's three guys with two sentences.  It doesn't seem insurmountable.    Personally, I'd like to a have perhaps a full page or maybe even two devoted to this establishment and its details, if only because the GM may wish to rip this out and use it in a city he eventually designs for himself.  Who knows?  When you get down to it, we are attempting to write an adventure for a book that's completely out of print (check the store on the web site.  I did a couple nights ago and was quite surprised to find that the few hundred listed a month or so back are now just gone.  So much for a boxed set.  

 

 

Realistically though, a lot of things may get dropped or brought to the forefront as the writing progresses.  Still, all ideas on the table is the best way to start.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Why does CJ stick around once the chaos starts?  Maybe, if the heroes are not fast enough to realize there should be a control room, and get there, he has already bolted, having set events in motion.

 

Good question.  I was going on the assumption that his power had a definite range or something, and that he would have to maintain the power to keep the chaos rolling.  I could be wrong, but as I was thinking through the finer points of making sure his actions demonstrated to the astute player that he seemed to change tactics depending on the nearness of children to his target, it occurred to me that if he _doesn't_ have to stick around, then this clue-- recall at the time-- and possible even now-- there was waffling about the dead kid in the Skull suit, but to make that a significant clue, it would first have to be possible to see CJ in action around children, etc, etc.  The thing that makes the most sense is that his power has a limiting factor that keeps him around while he's using it.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

A final "maybe" - the Skull is a super-genius.  Couldn't he set up his own robots of chaos, pre-programmed, and slip away (perhaps leaving a couple of non-Super techies behind who would try to flee once the action starts - charged with installing the tech they don't fully understand)?

 

That's a hard one, but it's because of a very particular set of circumstances:  as you have already shot down the exoskeleton as a push too close to power armor, I'm inclined to go the next logical step and move with "robots aren't his thing."   Can he figure them out?  Probably.  It's just not this thing.

 

Further, it's _not_ that the Skull said "Hey; I'd like to unleash some low-quality robots on this crowd; I certainly hope they end up hosting a pep rally near the only set in town that aren't on the Digger Dinosaur Dinsosaur Digger's Experience."  It's more "Oh-Ho!  They think that can just throw a little party and make themselves feel more secure?  Ha!  You, there!  Yes, henchman Next-in-line!  What's your name?  I see.  Well then, CyberJack, I think this morale-building session should be more a morale breaking experience.  See to it that their party is most...   unnerving.  Let them understand that nothing happens in my domain without my permission, and that they do not have it!  There are penalties for doing things without permission.  Severe penalties.  Go!  Penalize them!  Severely!"  Then maybe some chuckling over the accidental "DOME-main pun....

 

The animatronics just happen to play to CJ's strengths, and playing to your strengths is just good strategy.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

  That would reduce the Supers in Hepzibah to the self-created Skull, MuckMan (a side effect of the plot), Chaos (creations of the Skull), our non-Super retired crimefighter and the PCs, tightening up on there not being a Super on every corner.

 

And Captain Cluebat  the Raven.  Or was that the "retired crime fighter" you referred to?

 

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

And yes, let's plan for the Skull's capture.

 

Double-check me here so I can be sure:

 

Is this definitive?  Is this more or less the "predicted" outcome?  If so, we can lose the dead kid  / robot duplicate all together.  I'd prefer it anyway-- not out of squeamishness, but more out of "it doesn't say 'superhero storyline' to me."  That, and while I have no qualm with deaths that reinforce the ideas of "this is dangerous" and "you did badly," I'm rather concerned that players may find a dead kid to be almost a punishment of sorts.

 

 

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

Heck someone else can wear the dang helmet if needed.

 

Funny.  I was thinking about that a couple of nights ago; the old "psychic imprint" schtick.  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

Actually, we should plan for all endings, BUT NOT PUSH ANY ONE ENDING. The game master might like an option. We shouldn't push him twords or away any option.

 

 

Agreed in _theory_, with the following caveats:

 

We can't reasonably plan for more than two endings; we can unreasonably plan for possibly four endings.  

 

 

_However_.....

 

If we're anywhere near sincere about making this a serial adventure, then we have to both plan and push for one ending.  Sorry about that, but it's hard to pick up a story and continue it based on four possible endings, or eight, or ever-how-many.

 

 

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

Just call them "Midevil Pizza Robot 1" etc.

 

 

Okay, Mediaeval Pizza Robot 1 is _definitely_ Sir Cumference.  I so decree!  

 

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

True. The MCU heroes prioritize saving innocents, unlike the DC hero movies. This should be emphasized to the GM, but not yet for the players. Having the hero’s make the choice in play is going to define them. 

 

Agreed.  It's why I rather like a dead guy in front of them:  it's decision time.  Who is your character?  What does this mean to him?  How does he react?  Does this galvanize him, or does he even care?

 

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

It may stall forward motion. I think we are losing the goals do direction with all the minutiae.

 

Agreed, and not just with the pizza joint.

 

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

The Skull should have a very, direct and methodical M. O. This animatronic stack feels like a distraction.

 

To an extent, it is.  I don't know who else is going to volunteer to write, but go back through this thread (when you have a moment).  I have a _crap ton_ of thoughts and opinions to take in and to grind and filter into something coherent and relatively smooth.  Frankly, the humor of the distraction has been rather helpful.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

 

Threaten the innocents, while another operation is occurring elsewhere.

 

I see one potential use of this purpose-serving distraction (remember that no matter what distraction it may be, it's also serving to further demoralize the people) is the possibility of "moving house" to his "more suitable quarters."  Though, like Hugh et al, I expect him to leave the bulk of his operation in the mines, at least "for now."  (yes; we know that "for now" will never come, because the heroes will trounce his evil plans, etc, etc...  )

 

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

I can see the The Skull following an A plot and a B plot.  A

plot operations are anything involving his main goals to kill the mob bosses and CEOs. The B plot is to mis-direct and bamboozle the authorities and heroes and keep them on the back foot. It may take a capture of a suit or a mercenary to figure out the true A plot.  B plots are carried out by expendable assets. A plot will be The Skull and lieutenants.   Those guys?

 

56 minutes ago, steriaca said:

Ok then. The automatronic attack is still on as a B plot. A plot the heroes have to go to anyways. But maybe not all of them.

 

So, to mention something, what is the A plot going on while this is going on? What is the thing the Skull wants no heroes at?

 

43 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 I would  think that it might be something like  moving equipment around ,

 

Ha!  So, Scott; 

 

is this great minds thinking alike or soft minds running together?  

 

 

43 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

or a brief opening of a hole in the dome large enough to move trucks full of weapons, or  specilized equipment.  They will be competently guarded, but it would be something that the heroes find out later through witnesses, or by facing military grade weapons head on. Something like that would work.  this might be where the black market stuff starts.

 

This can go somewhere.

 

Now, 

 

if we're doing the black market, etc, can we agree on a rough time frame for this adventure?  If we do black market, I'd say at least a month.  

 

Opinions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And now the rest:

 

I haven't read back through my post here (I generally try to do that at least once before I post), but as it is, there have been numerous replies as I typed, and honestly, my heart's not in it and my mood is black.  My Brunswick group will be disbanding, at least for the foreseeable future, owing to the deaths yesterday of two players.  They are two of my oldest friends: we have gamed together even since before they began the dating relationship that led to their marriage, and their loss makes me the last survivor of the original "Jim's House Gang."   I plowed through this thread this evening partly as a distraction, and partly to stay focused on something else until bed time (not to mention that we've seen more activity in this one day than any other day thus far, and I need to know where we're heading).

 

I will likely _not_ be back to this thread until sometime next week.  It's not that I don't want to; it's simply that I don't think I'll have the focus to glean anything useful for the next few days.  Please continue to contribute thoughts and ideas, and I will be back when I am up to it.

 

 

 

Duke

 

It occurs that the bar patrons could be greeted by Sir Vaysa, but I'm thinking that Sir Vicks crosses some sort of line.... 

 

Perhaps the prize pit where tickets are exchanged for candy and prizes is manned by Sir Tifikit?