Echo3Niner

Ever since Dragon Age Origins (computer game), I've actually incorporated some sort of origins storyline into the beginning of my campaigns. Why does your farmer's son pick up a sword and start adventuring? Why would your Cyberpunk character quit whatever their background story is for how they got all that tech, and become a mercenary thug? Even in this new Champions campaign concept I have going, we have the origins component for the characters, so I've got that part going. What I don't have is this background storyline that ties the entire campaign together into a coherent narrative that has a definitive ending...

Agreed; I'm looking for help with a concept I'll explain more below. I've done that, it's posted somewhere else on here. This is exactly my problem. I was obviously not clear enough in my initial post, sorry about that. My issue is that for other games, Fantasy and Cyberpunk being my usual mainstays, I have elaborate, intricate storylines which span the entire campaign. There are times when a game here or there doesn't follow the main theme, or there's a bit of a respite from the hardcore storyline, but in the end, the campaign is drawnout, and eventually, when it comes to it's climatic end, everyone knows it's the end cause some momentous event has culminated in the closing of the storyline. In Superhero games, I have not yet figured out how to have something of that scale. My games too are lighter, with small storyarchs which have some villains in common, and end when they're foiled in whatever fashion, but then it's off to the next miniseries after perhaps a filler or two. I would like to prepare a full campaign for my players; frankly it's what they expect from me. We are all adults, who have played many games, for many years. A couple of my players have played with me for 20+ years. Whenever we've had something light on the campaign-long story, the games have kinda petered out eventually, and just ended. So, what I'm looking for, is anyone who has had a 10-20 game full-on campaign in Champions. Something where a central theme has been in the background for the entire story, and when the heroes eventually concluded the story, everyone knew it was the end, because the subject of the story was closed or completed. That's what I'm trying to understand. How do you do that in a superhero game?

So, how do you go about crafting a campaign? Not the mechanics of it (use of this or that tool), but how do you go about creating an engrossing campaign-long narrative for your players? Do you start with a villain? Do you start with a storyline or scene? Do you start with an event? After you have your starting point, how do you develop it? Build out from that starting point? Start at the beginning and go forward? Start at the end and go backwards? At what point do you engage your players? Early in the development? Do you wait until you have a good basis and then talk to them? Do you wait until they've developed character concepts and work from there? Having run a gazillion other games, some for 20+ years, I can come up with a campaign in minutes. Superhero genre is harder for me. I have played in one Champions campaign; it was very simple and direct. I have run some other games, several in a row, but wouldn't put it on the same level of complexity I have for other campaigns I have for genres I'm more familiar with, in fact, I wouldn't really classify it as a campaign, but just a storyarch with 4-6 games in it. I have even strung several of those types of games together, and had longer runs, but without the overarching design, I still wouldn't call it a campaign; it actually mirrors more the territory of what happens in comics; a multi-issue storyarch, that then ends and the heroes may even have a "filler" game or two, then we start on another storyarch - but that's not a campaign like I've run in Earthdawn or Shadowrun... We're talking dozens to twenty plus games, with a complete storyline that builds to a climatic end for the campaign that satisfies everyone; they all know when the campaign is over. Thoughts?

So, interestingly, your two quotes basically counter your point about game stats being useful. My point is that when a character has a character sheet made of them, when stats are applied, that is a point in time; and, the game designers only have what has gone on to that point, and tend to us the "recent" iteration of that character for their character stats. Thus, just like Comic says, you can find stats from various iterations of games, over a very long period, to make your comparisons. If you agree upon a variation of the characters, then game stats, if they are viable (in other words, actually based upon something, and not a game designers need for balance in their respective games as you point out) could be used, but good luck on finding these mystical stats that everyone will agree upon using for the comparison. At the end of the day, I agree that this type of poll is more a popularity contest and the beginning of great debate. What I disagree with is that there is a good way to end said debate. As I said earlier, since it's all opinion, based on make believe characters in make believe worlds, with their own make believe science and norms, at the end of the day, anyone can make just about any argument and find sufficient make believe information to support it; so everyone's opinion has equal merit. Except mine, because I keep using words like "definitive" and "period" when talking about make believe stuff, so "the height of my hypocrisy knows no bounds..."

The posts from Wikipedia represent values directly from comics (with citations). Thus, while Superman has several "tested" noted strength levels over time, it is clearly stated that Hulk has no limit. Thus, eventually, Hulk is stronger than anyone, period. I agree that various stats from various sources can be useful in baselining, the only problem is that since those stats are simply a point in time, based on a writers whimsy, then stated by someone else, they will change and evolve, as the storylines do. So in order to make them of any real value, you would have to state the point and time and power level based on the storyline at that time, to make the comparison.

IF you read the posts I put up from Wikipedia, those are collective of the comic books, and detail clearly how SH's strength has changed to now be based both on her non-Hulk form, AND rage/fear.

If you go back and re-read the Wikipedia excerpts I pasted in here (or God forbid you actually click the links and research the topic thoroughly), strength and fighting skills are not the issue; it's the ability to be able to absorb and recover from damage. In this, She-Hulk has a huge advantage. Unless given time to "merge with the earth" to heal, WW cannot recover from the damage SH is dealing; however, SH CAN recover, almost instantly, from ANY damage WW deals out - thus, SH wins, period.

I suppose to be fair, this finishes it: The Hulk possesses the potential for limitless physical strength depending directly on his emotional state, particularly his anger.[65] This has been reflected in the repeated comment, "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets." The cosmically-powerful entity known as the Beyonder once analyzed the Hulk's physiology, and claimed that the Hulk's potential strength had "no finite element inside."[66] Hulk's strength has been depicted as sometimes limited by Banner's subconscious influence; when Jean Grey psionically "shut Banner off", Hulk became strong enough to overpower and destroy the physical form of the villain Onslaught.[67] Writer Greg Pak described the Worldbreaker Hulk shown during World War Hulk as having a level of physical power where "Hulk was stronger than any mortal—and most immortals—who ever walked the Earth."[68] His strength allows him to leap into lower Earth orbit or across continents,[69][70] and he has displayed superhuman speed.[71][72] His durability, regeneration, and endurance also increase in proportion to his temper.[73] Hulk is resistant to injury or damage, though the degree to which varies between interpretations, but he has withstood the equivalent of solar temperatures,[74][75] nuclear explosions,[71][76][77][78] and planet-shattering impacts.[79][80][81] Despite his remarkable resiliency, continuous barrages of high-caliber gunfire can hinder his movement to some degree while he can be temporarily subdued with intense attacks with chemical weapons such as anesthetic gases, although any interruption of such dosages will allow him to quickly recover.[82] He has been shown to have both regenerative and adaptive healing abilities, including growing tissues to allow him to breathe underwater,[83] surviving unprotected in space for extended periods,[84] and when injured, healing from most wounds within seconds, including, on one occasion, the complete destruction of most of his body mass.[85][86] As an effect, he has an extremely prolonged lifespan.[87] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(comics)#As_Hulk

And to complete it: A transfusion of gamma-irradiated blood from her cousin Bruce Banner (the Hulk) granted Jennifer Walters superhuman powers. In her She-Hulk form, she possesses enormoussuperhuman strength, that potentially makes her, by far, the physically strongest known woman in the Marvel Universe when her emotional state is sufficiently high.[66][70][71][72] Although She-Hulk's strength originally remained at a set level and did not increase, later in her history her strength has sporadically been stated to increase further from fear,[66] or anger,[72] similar to her cousin. In addition the character possesses superhuman speed, agility, stamina, and reflexes.[73] As She-Hulk, Walters is exponentially stronger than she is in her Jennifer Walters form; therefore any extra strength gained as Jennifer Walters through intense physical training will be amplified, making her She-Hulk form even stronger. After being defeated by the Champion of the Universe, She-Hulk exercised for several months in her Jennifer Walters form, resulting in a significant gain in strength and muscular mass in her She-Hulk form and allowing her to soundly defeat the Champion in a rematch. At this time she was able to effortlessly sustain the Thing's maximum weight with a single arm, while her strength was greatly restrained by a "Jupiter suit," and she was shown as considerably stronger thanHercules.[71] Her calm strength level has since receded, but remains somewhat higher than, for example, Wonder Man.[70] Similarly to her cousin, her powers can also greatly increase by absorbing radiation.[74][75] She-Hulk's body is superhumanly durable and nearly impervious to force, pain, and disease: her skin can withstand extremes of temperature, as well as tremendous stresses and impacts without puncture wounds or lacerations. Her enhanced physiology renders her immune to all terrestrial diseases. She-Hulk also possesses a healing factor, which enabled her to completely recover, within minutes, from a skewering by the Wendigo.[76] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She-Hulk#Powers_and_abilities

While I'm at it: Pre-Crisis[edit]The Golden Age Wonder Woman had strength that was comparable to the Golden Age Superman. An example of this is when she was able to tear a steel door off its hinges.[129] In one of her earliest appearances, she is shown running easily at 60 mph, and later jumps from a building and lands on the balls of her feet.[130] Her strength would be removed in accordance with "Aphrodite's Law" if she allowed her bracelets to be bound or chained by a male.[131] In the Silver and Bronze ages of comics, Wonder Woman was able to further increase her strength. In times of great need, removing her bracelets would temporarily augment her power tenfold, but cause her to go insane in the process.[134] These powers received changes after the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths. In the Post-Crisis universe, Wonder Woman receives her powers as a blessing from Olympian deities:[135] Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fertility, blessed Diana with strength drawn from the Earth spirit Gaea, making her one of the physically strongest heroes in the DC Universe and the strongest female heroine of all in the DC Universe.[136] Her connection to the earth allows her to heal at an accelerated rate so long as she is in contact with the planet. In rare cases where she has been gravely injured, Diana showed the ability to physically merge with the earth, causing whatever injuries or poisons to be expelled from her body; such an act is considered sacred, and can only be used in extreme cases.[137]​ While not invulnerable, she is highly resistant to great amounts of concussive force and extreme temperatures. Edged weapons or projectiles applied with sufficient force, though, are able to pierce her skin.[137][142] Due to her divine origins, Diana can resist many forms of magical manipulation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman#Powers_and_abilities

Superhuman Strength and Endurance[edit]Enhanced strength far above that of a human and even most superhumans, making him "more powerful than a locomotive," is one of Superman's signature powers and has often been described as chief among his other abilities. While not infinite, depictions of the upper limit of how much weight he can lift have ranged from being able to do the work of several laborers in half the time, crush diamonds in his grasp, lift objects hundreds of times his own weight including any sized vehicle over his head, bend steel with his bare hands, lifting mountains, and all the way up to in the Silver Age and Modern Age where he is seen moving entire planets. This makes him the strongest being in the DC Universe. After being saturated with yellow solar energy in All-Star Superman, his strength was tested as exceeding the force of 200 quintillion tons(or 2x1020 tons in scientific notation, i.e., two hundred billion billion tons); he held this much with one hand and he even said he feels like he can pick up more, enough to pull Earth away from the sun.[6] As of The New 52 reboot, his strength now exceeds 5.972 sextillion metric tons.[7] Explanations include being adapted to the heavier gravity of Krypton, and his muscles using the power of the solar energy which fuels all his abilities. While in direct yellow sunlight, his strength can be augmented to limitless and incalculable levels. He has strength necessary to shatter entire worlds. Superman's stamina has also been shown as limitless while he remains in yellow sunlight. DC Comics is not known to have coined a similar reference to Marvel Comics's reference, “Class 100 strength,” to Marvel characters whose super-humanoid strength levels are so high that they can lift (press) 100 tons or more for extended periods. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman

Except, those stats are from a "point in time". Way back in the very old Marvel RPG, Hulk's strength started at Shift Z and went to class 5000 easy enough; and again, it was stated that he had no upper limit. It was never specifically stated he could go to Beyond class, the only thing after Class 5000, but there was no where else to go, it is the only thing after C5k... IF he could go to Beyond class, then there was no numbers limit to what he could lift, and his strength was effectively "off the chart", which nullifies all lifting comparisons. Which is why I don't use stats/lifting for comparisons at all. I agree with the point that if you take them at any specific point in time, you can make an argument either way, or as you stated, simply do what you want, which is what writers do when they "interpret" a character for their story. Because there has never been a cross-company agreed upon stat solution, and because the characters change upon a writers whim to fit the story they want to write, the debate is faulty from the get-go. The question is not whether the stats show who should win based on numbers (which would then have to be defined - which numbers, from which source, from which time, etc.), but our opinion of who would win in a "fair fight" (which also isn't defined). No opinion is more valid, or "right" than the next, and no opinion can be "wrong" in this case, because this isn't science (or real for that matter), and thus strictly a matter of our collected imaginations based on a source of completely inconsistent, whimsical writer's made-up stories, that someone else tried to put stats to, at that time.

I disagree. Hulk was shown in a "What If" once (a long time ago, before all this silly crossover business), banging on SuperDuper, and the last panel inferred that Supe's was stressing; not that that's definitive or anything. Hulk does not have an "established power level", it has been stated repeatedly that he has no real upper limit; that is definitive. As for the chicks; well here's where "fair fight" has to get ironed out. If WW can't use her lasso, sword, shield, armor, bracers, etc., so it's actually a straight MMA match, which in my estimation would make it "fair", then the ability to absorb damage and heal it (regardless of the author or timeline of that specific writers interpretation of the character), would give the edge to SH in the end...

Armani. The name says it all, or maybe not in this case. Georgino Alaman was a mild-mannered man once; a bank teller that all the women stood in line to do their banking needs, which he was completely oblivious to. A dashing figure, at 6'1" and 185#, he has broad shoulders and a slim waist, giving him that classic upside down V shape. His black wavy hair, clean cut and chiseled chin, with huge dimple in the middle, made him the envy of all the men, and the center of attention of all the women. He was also blessed with loads of charm, which he again was oblivious to the effects it had on others. Problem was, Georgino had no aspirations. None. He was happy, living his solitary life, focusing on his house plants and immaculately cared for lawn. He had no room in his perfect life, for anyone or anything else. Everything changed when the Wild Bunch (supervillain team) decided to rob his bank. Georgino has OCD to the extreme, and he couldn't stand the chaos the robbery was causing, so he stepped up; right into the line of fire of a villain's transmutation ray... Suddenly, the mild-mannered Georgino, wearing one of his close-to name-sake's suits, was transformed. He could not remove the suit, it was grafted to his body, but the suit also suddenly provided him protection, speed, strength and stamina. Suddenly, Armani was born. His OCD still makes him insufferable (especially to his team mates), but his inability to allow any evil doer's plans to cause chaos or upset his world view (akin to a Zen garden), focuses him, and he leads the team to foil any such plans. Think 007, with a clean/neat fixation, and you're getting close.

So, when do you draw the line between a "power stunt" and making the player buy a new power?

"Don't try to solve the debate, That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth." "What truth?" "There is no debate."

You mean other than the drugs?

OK, so as someone who served in the US Marine Corps Spec Ops community in real life, in a role where I served with Spec Ops forces from other branches (within the US and our allies), you have a decision to make; are you: A) Going to try to represent a real Operator? or Making a game convention on a mechanical point total cap? &/or C) Making an "agent" that conforms to game balance mechanics and preserves some sort of "PC superiority" model? The reason I ask is this; in every game I have every played, which has modern military in it; if you accurately represent these characters, they are HUGE point monsters that unbalance the game. Also, they would be completely boring for players, because there would be almost no individuality to the characters (other than backstory and personality). They would all be about the same stats, across all areas (abilities, characteristics, skills, etc.). But, that would be accurate; that's how the community operates so successfully. About the only thing that doesn't unbalance the game in a superhero genre, is normal weapons and body armor. If you're talking a unit, that draws from the Spec Ops community AND gears them up to deal with supers? They'd be in trouble. So, if you want to play a game, where the characters survive, use B &/or C above. Because you're players can't handle realism in this case (if done right). I could explain in detail the reasons why, if anyone wants to know, but will save it, for those who don't.

I think it depends a lot on how you think, and what makes sense to you. There is no "right way" to do this; the one that works for you is "right" for you. Though, you can learn a lot from other GM's, and "jump ahead" in the process by posting on forums like this and finding things to help you gain experience from others - so kudo's to you for asking. I always start with the gameworld. As a 35 year+ GM of a lot of different games, I need to understand the "rules" of the gameworld before I can put players into it. What is it like living in this world? What does the average Joe from this setting (city) know about what's going on? How are the governments involved (or not)? What about criminal organizations - organized crime, and more perhaps? What's the history (or how is it different than our own)? Once I have that, I try to think of a good campaign concept. Sometimes (more often as I get older), the campaign concept comes first, and I make a world to set it in. Campaign concept is like thinking of the outline of the story to be told. It's the "what happens" in the game world. I tend to think about and then lightly outline what is going to happen over the length of the campaign. If the characters are not involved at all, and no one stops it, what are the villains going to do? What are there plans? Once I have these two things, I can put the players into the setting and storyline, then I can play off whatever they make up for characters and whatever they do; I will try to weave in any backstory they have for their characters as well, since I understand the world and story, this is added "flavor". Because I understand the "rules" of how the world works, and what the opposition is trying to accomplish, the villains can adjust appropriately. Having these two things presents a "logic" that makes the world and events believable; allowing the suspension of disbelief to remain in affect throughout the game session, which in the end, is the goal. I will give the players guidelines on what the world is like, and what "type" (or style) of campaign it is, so they can make appropriate characters to fit. For this, I usually make a "what your character knows" hand out. It describes the gameworld "rules", usually in a some story driven "in-world" style, like a press release, to give the players a sense of "being there", but also to underscore the "tone" of the campaign. (I have a post on here somewhere with the backstory for my latest Champions campaign setting and story.) With this all done ahead of time, I'm usually able to deal with just about anything else on the fly. I'll usually make up the stats of the upcoming villains, game-by-game; that way I can adjust as needed. The "campaign villain" is usually more a story element (bio) than any stats, and sometimes I never stat them, because if they have no stats, they cannot be killed (or captured, etc.), and sometimes for story purposes, it's about thwarting the villains plans, not defeating them personally (if they should reasonably never be able to do so anyway - e.g. a "protected character"). If there is a faceoff in the end, I don't stat them until I'm close, so I can make them an appropriate challenge at that time, based on how the player characters have developed. Anywho, there you go; my process in a nut shell.

I would think, with the standard rate of rise in scientific study/research/progress, that what might have started as a simple "super-soldier" serum, would eventually become much more. Simply add on the affects of the huge investment pharmaceutical corporations would invest, especially given the anti-aging effects; then start adding in the genetic modification/targeting of several modern drugs (or those in trials and about to be released) from our current timeline. If you start to add these up, add in modern food modification, healthy/organic lifestyles, computer aided design, massive amounts learned about vast amount of naturally occurring and man-made drugs as well as medical research in general, and this starts to escalate very rapidly. Just thinking along these lines, I would think you would have tailor made, genetic focused, "super" serums that FAR exceed what was created in the 1940's... Think about the progress in electronics from 1945 to now. They were using vacuum tubes; now you have more computational power and sophistication on your smart phone than they had in huge rooms of computer banks at the highest levels. Now apply that here.

Someone reading too many of Elon Musk's press releases lately?

I think the last dozen or so posts, makes a great argument for why the "Civil War" storyline can be so compelling. Just mentioning it here, started a huge wash of back and forth, and kinda makes the point itself. Now, that's not to say that Marvel did a great job on it in their comics, or that they will in the movie(s)/various TV series for that matter; but, I think the conflict of the storyline is excellent and these posts make that point (at least to me). As with almost anything, "it's all in the execution"... So far, given the excellent execution of the MCU, I have to bet Kevin Feige will do a good job with it.

I understand what you're saying about the "angst filled darkness" of much of the comics... I don't like that either. I did like Civil War however, due to the real-life mirror of civil rights struggles.

Except, don't forget that Marvel Studios and Fox are at odds. So, due to the licensing agreements Marvel made prior to Disney (but Disney is legally bound with), as long as Fox keeps making their X-Men and FF films, Marvel has nothing to do with it. Sony on the other hand, has "given in" to the Marvel Studios/Disney wave of money. Recently it was reported that Marvel and Sony are going to cross-over the Web Slinger with the MCU properties. Basically, Sony's films didn't make "MCU Money", and they want them to. So, Marvel/Disney get's Spidey back, kinda. The feud with Fox is so bad, that Marvel is undermining the FF in their own products, in an effort to hurt Fox's earnings, in a long-term strategy to get their rights back (Disney will take the short-term loss, for the long-term gain); well, at least that's the rumor - but, it's fairly widely accepted, in Hollywood circles...

So, one of the items I hear often quoted as a limitation of Champions is the 3d6/low number system. I have seen it mentioned that some "house rule" a reverse, where high numbers matter instead, is there a good thread on how to do that here somewhere?