Brian Stanfield

I've seen it written all over the place on these forums that we are most definitely not allowed to rewrite the rules to fit our projects, that the IP of HERO is not something we can tamper with, and to even ask is met with silence or curt refusals. Yet Champions Now is doing just that: literally changing the rules in interesting (and probably fruitful) ways to achieve a feel. It's sending a mixed signal. So unless "our" name is Ron Edwards, I don't see how any time spend trying a project like this is possible. I suggested a Fantasy HERO Basic project a while back, and the basic final assessment was that it wouldn't be allowed for the reasons listed above. I wonder if maybe it's not time for DOJ to put their money where their mouths are on these type of projects. Perhaps Champions Now will actually make that possible. This is why I backed the project, and I hope that it opens the door to some similar project proposals from us lowly amateurs who also have a vested interest in seeing the games and the system itself succeed. I remain skeptically hopeful.

So what I'm wondering now is should there be some connection between a gadget pool that can be infinitely varied, or a base, or a tactical vehicle, and wealth? I guess that the wealth is just "assumed" in these cases, but should it be a perk that a player must buy in order to have access to all these things?

I think the main difference between "money" and "lifestyle" in these regional examples can be expressed like this: If I have $5 million I could build a mansion and retire with a very comfortable (maybe not lavish, but close) lifestyle on a vast acreage in the wine country of Southern Illinois. I work for one of these people and see it every day. If, however, I have $5 million in the wine country of Southern California I wouldn't even be able to buy the land, let alone develop it. Money is, after all, money. "Lifestyle" makes more than a semantic difference here, being the product of the same amount of money. Conversely, I've stayed at a friend's family home which was affordably built in the shadow of the Golden Gate Bridge before any other house, and the community grew around it. It is now so valuable that they can't even conceive of selling it. The money changed around the property, but the lifestyle remains the same. This sort of distinction is of course campaign dependent, so it is a rather relative term, but I believe that the point is that tying a specific dollar amount to a particular lifestyle is problematic. Living modestly in Belvedere is much different than living modestly in Des Moines, and living a lavish lifestyle is equally different and not dependent on the specific dollar amount.

Although I'm a backer, this is sort of what bothers me. The powers that be refuse to re-print the 6e core books because Champions Complete is the new standard set of rules, but then turn around and back a project to re-write the rules to 3e, and present it as what appears to be yet another "official" direction for the ruleset. We've also been flatly told "no" on a possible "HERO System Lite" type of ruleset, yet Champions Now appears to be exactly that. Although I like the project, it seems like it could have been astronomically more beneficial to do the same narrative-based introduction to Champions with the CC rules, and then add the Character Creation Cards to the mix when they become available. In short, this seems like some seriously mixed signals are being sent. Sure Ron Edwards has a lot of great stuff to offer, and because it's being presented as a Champions campaign book, I can understand that it is more of a personal project. But I'm not sure what it does for HERO's long term health to promote it against its own Champions Complete. If this is a set up to eventually introduce a new ruleset for Champions, it is messy beyond belief. We can all go back to 3e on our own if we want. I don't think it's a good idea to introduce new people to an older ruleset (if that is actually part of the intended purpose). There is a lot of emphasis these days on narrative driven, rules light games, and I appreciate introducing emergent character development and storytelling into Champions (although it is suggested with each edition that players can take unspecified Complications to develop as game play progresses). New players are more likely to bite on something like this. After going to Origins this year and seeing how nuts people still are for Cypher System, it seems that they aren't afraid of universal systems as long as they have a narrative driven approach. It seems that it is just as possible to do this with HERO and Champions, but probably more desirable to do it with the most recent rules. I don't want to repeat myself too much, but I'm really disappointed that a lot of people expressed a desire to develop a rules-light version of Champions in order to introduce it to new people, but were shut down without any discussion. Yet now we're getting that very thing, but with an outdated version of the rules. Will it help HERO? Maybe. But it may only be an OSR nostalgia piece with no extended support, which only adds to the woes of HERO seeming outdated and falling behind the times.

Thank you for getting to my main point, which I may not have been very clear about. What I really want to know is, can we get Champions in front of new eyes and drum up new support by tapping into the "indie" crowd, who seems to always be looking for the next cool thing (even if it's the next Old School Revived thing). Really, once the character creation cards come out, it seems like they ought to be packaged with Champions Complete and marketed as quick chargen with streamlined rules that will allow for more play/storytelling time.

I started a thread on "indie" games here, with the idea of investigating why Champions/HERO System isn't presenting itself to the younger "indie" crowd. Setting aside what "indie" actually means, I think it should be considered an indie game. I wondered if it could be shown to a new generation with this in mind, and if perhaps this is what Ron Edwards might actually be tapping into. The news announcement, Why Now Champions Now, seems to reinforce that question. I've now reconsidered backing the project because any exposure is better than none! And if people discover it at Indie Press Revolution while scanning for Fate or some other popular game, so much the better. I'll save the problem of why it's not based on Champions Complete for another time.

I'm leaning towards ghost-angel's assessment, but in the minds of many young people, it holds meaning. I guess like "being a rebel" used to mean something when we were teenagers. I guess it's more an attitude of (perceived) rebellion than anything. RDU Neil taps into this attitude in his description of punk and post-punk in the '80s. Why I'm bringing this up in the first place, however, is as a way to perhaps reorient the way we try to present the game(s) of HERO System. If you look at Jason Walters's new update of the "Champions Now" announcement, it sorta taps into this notion. Perhaps Ron Edwards is seeing what I'm seeing: presenting a light version of the Champions rules (a la Amorpous Blob), recast in the more contemporary, and perceived "indie," approach of narrative games. I'm now reconsidering my support of "Champions Now" as a result of what I saw happening in real time at Origins . . .

That's funny, and sorta true, but I'd have to say that a lot of the "indie" gamers I just spent the better part of a week with are also into stripped down OSR adventures too, especially one-shots for conventions, etc. So the indie, narrative-based, rules-light games tend to converge with OSRs in their experiences. That's when a little light came on for me, wondering why we don't tap into that more. Amorphous Blob hosts at least one Champions 3e game each year, and it seems like there are a lot of possibilities for this to work as an introduction to Champions. Perhaps this is what Ron Edwards's "Champions Now" project is for?

I guess the B&N test is a good one. They carry the D&D stuff, and 5e has gotten pretty popular. It's gained enough traction to have started releasing more compendiums, campaign books, DM screens, spell cards, and all that stuff that screams "big business" in my mind. I wonder if "big" and "small" aren't bad measurements. I may have made that distinction too soon. I think RDU Neil brings up a good point: a lot of people think of "indie" as being rules light, although that's not the only consideration. Monte Cook has several games based on the Cypher System, and indie gamers love his stuff. I think maybe one thing that makes things "indie" is that they tend to be more open sourced by fans of the game. I bring this up only because I'm wondering why Champions, or HERO System, doesn't try to market itself with the indie gamers. They love trying new things, have a lot of energy, and enjoy exploring the possibilities of a game system. And they tend to produce a lot of secondary material. The common problem with HERO, that there are no adventures being produced, could be solved if you unleash some indie nerds on the scene! This also makes me reconsider what the "Champions Now" Kickstarter might be about as well. Because it's taking a more "narrative rich" approach, like modern indie games, I wonder if it is trying to use a rules light version of Champions to lure in the indie crowd. I just wish that this was made more explicit in the Kickstarter pitch if it was the case. . . .

After spending the last week at Origins Game Fair, I was impressed with the volume and variety of "indie" games. But with the rising popularity of these games, such as Fate, and the increasing amount of supporting material for them, it seems like the line is blurring between "indie" games and their opposite (whatever the opposite of indie is . . . "corporate?" "committed?" I don't know). Let's assume Dungeons & Dragons is the exact opposite, with Wizards of the Coast as its overlord. Somewhere in the middle, and I may be mistaken, but I think people still consider Monte Cook games to be "indie" since they were Kickstarter funded, although they have a very strong flgs presence and are very well funded and supported by secondary market material. They are also well attended at conventions. My question becomes, if being "indie" is to have limited or no affiliations with mainstream publishing, does HERO System count as an indie game? Even with its volumes and volumes of 5e/6e material? I'm inclined to say yes, since it is largely self-published without the aid of a big publisher, has an online presence that outweighs its flgs presence, and is supported largely by independent, individual contributions of written material, etc. So, shouldn't "we" try to celebrate more vocally HERO System games as "indie" games in order to entice a new generation of gamers who want to support such endeavors? Conventions seem like a great way to promote the game system, and some people are simply junkies for new indie games.

The past few years they didn't have security the way they did this year, and not just for the Saturday parade. I know a couple of people who volunteer for Origins, and they said there was a particular threat made against an author, who then pulled out of the event, and thus there was heightened security. I didn't clarify who it was, so I guess I just now put it all together. It's disappointing that Correia pulled out. I've never read his books or heard him speak, but I'm familiar with the radioactive fallout that seems to follow him, which is disappointing.

Is this why there were all those armed officers around Origins? I heard there was some sort of death threat or bomb threat because an author was scheduled to appear.

Roll20 had a great presentation at Origins this year. They are planning on including a die roll that will keep track of specific results for each roll (for instance, 1s and 6s). Seems like they're always improving. I've never looked at Roll20 before, so I joined your sandbox. When you get a chance, can you make me a GM so I can look around?

Now if I can only remember this a year from now!

THIS!!! This is a great idea. I think a few cons would be a better way to create a buzz, both for indie gamers and for folks interested in Champions. It seems like it could actually create an interest in Champions with the growing numbers of idie gamers out there . . . .

This is an interesting video! It seems to hint at what he's shooting for in the Kickstarter. But I'm still left guessing a little bit.

I'm almost on board with this project. But I'm inclined to agree with Spence that it's more of what we've already seen. I think I can get a lot more useful advice out of Aaron Allston's Strike Force reissue, which was truly a brilliant idea. I think we can all agree that 3e was quicker and easier to play, and has a lot of appeal because of that. What I'm curious about, though, is how to offer these quick and fluid character creation suggestions to 6e. If we go to 3e to avoid the crunchiness of 6e, I'm really interested in hearing time-tested advice on how to cut through the endless detail to create beginning characters and encounters in 6e the way we used to in 3e. In all honesty, I think the character creation cards were a brilliant Kickstarter idea. I'd like to see someone do what Ron is planning, but using the cc cards in 6e. I looked at the beta documents, and Ron seems like a really interesting guy, and I'd love to see more of what he does. But this particular project seems to fall a little flat for me. Perhaps if there's a more explicit goal here (applying storytelling techniques to Champions), and a clearer plan of what it entails, it'll make for a less confusing KS offering. It seems like with a little more refinement (and maybe a better outline of what the goal is), I'd be all over backing this.

Wow! This is good to know! How are they listed in the paper book? Are they listed by event like usual? Do you check with IGOD beforehand to see what they are offering?

Those all sound great! I didn't get to pre-register for anything because of a screwup on Origins's part, so I was pretty much stuck demoing games and stuff like that. Kind of a bummer. I went and met Jason Walters, but he was always busy so I didn't get to talk to him much. It was still fun all around, but not exhilarating.

Have you found anything good to play yet?

Is anyone else at Origins this year?

Got it. I misunderstood your goal. Still, this sounds like a lot of fun, and I'd like to see what you finally come up with. You should post it when you get it figured out, and maybe write up a documents for the downloads section.

Its been a looooong time since I played 40k, but one principle that I always liked was the points-balance approach that is similar to HERO. In other words, you can gauge a squad based on the total number of points it has just like you can gauge a super team against a villain team. The weapons were a big part of balancing squads. For example, you could have a single squad of highly equipped space marines against an endless horde of space orcs with crappy weapons, but the points still balance out. My my point in bringing this up is that you'll probably want to include the weapons and equipment in the character builds so that there is still some balance at the squad level. They can all take the Focus Disadvantage, Real Weapon Disadvantage, etc. to make them more affordable, but it'll be easier to maintain a balance between opposing squad combat.

I looked through the book for the detailed explanations on the builds, but they are done more like the genre books, offering a lot of possibilities for what can be done in a build, not necessarily what is done in a build. It may be worth getting a .pdf version of the book just to look at the material.

By the way, have you compared the stats to the 5e Equipment Guide? They are actually cheaper, so it looks like there's an intentional adjustment in the 6e guide.