LoneWolf

That is still going to cost a lot more. If you use a multipower with the limitations on the slots you pay 80 points for the pool and 6 points per slot assuming each slot has 1 continuing charge of 1 hour. That would mean the cost for 8 forms is now 128 points vs 54. Unless I am not understanding what you are doing that seems to be a really bad way of doing it.

The 5 points for doubling is part of the multiform power, this is not the +5 point to get double number of objects. This is the same thing as increasing the non-combat multiplier on a movement power or increased mass on teleport. This means it is actually affected by advantages and limitations. My point total is accurate for the multiform.

Multiform already has a cheap way to get extra forms. Each +5 gives you double the number of forms so getting 8 extra forms is only 15 points. Since the limitation only apply to the control cost it will probably be cheaper to simply purchase more forms instead of using a VPP. For example, purchasing 8 400-point forms with the time limit of 1-hour costs 54 point, a 54-point VPP with a control cost of 80 with the same limitation costs 77 points. If I increase the number of forms to 2048 then the multiform costs 77 points. So, while in theory the VPP gives unlimited forms in reality the straight multiform can get enough forms that it does not matter. No sane GM is going to allow any player to write up a multiform on the spot during the game. The game is going to come to a complete stop if a player can write up multiple characters during combat. Even out of combat the player is going to be so distracted writing up characters that they are still going to be a major drag on the game. The only way something like this is going to work is if the player is limited to prewritten forms. If that is the case a VPP is simply paying more points for something they cannot use. The numbers above are a rough estimate the actual cost is probably going to be different depending on how the power is bought. With that many forms you probably don't need to go to the game limit on points as each form can be tailored to specific need.

A lot of it will depend on the special effect, but there are lots of examples of multiform where the two forms do not share memories. A werewolf for example often does not share memories, but a character that has multiple suits of powered armor should. It depends on how different you write up the forms as. To me either way has advantages and disadvantages so the character can choose how they want it to work without having to pay extra or get a limitation. If you purchase most of the same skills for both forms, they should share memories, if the forms have little to no skills in common and have widely different mental stats they probably don’t.

Uncleavlad is right you don’t do anything on the alternative form. One thing to remember on a multiform is that they are completely separate characters. You have to buy everything for each character so any skills especially knowledges do not carry over. For the most part the characters will have some awareness of the other but that is not always the case. They may not even be aware of each other existence. A physical complication will prevent the forms from knowing about each other. If the true form is not aware of the alternate form you will probably need a way to trigger it automatically. Accidental change is the obvious solution.

It’s really not that overpowered. It applies to a small number of drains and AVAD attacks. The majority of them are not affected. What it comes down to is special effect. Most AVAD power defense is not going to be affected by Damage Negation. If the attack is an energy or physical attack why does power defense stop it? AVAD power defense are usually poison or disease or some other effect, not a physical or energy attack. What it will apply to are things like AVAD with the defense being physical resistant defense, or hardened defenses. In 6th edition those are fairly cheap anyways in some cases they are a -0 limitation. Damage Negation also makes a good defense for AVAD attacks. This is the perfect defense for something that is supposed to do damage to anything it touches. A NND with the defense of physical damage negation makes a perfect touch attack.

Look on page 183 of the rule book and in the second paragraph it specifically states, “it works on Normal Damage, AVADs Killing Attacks, Drain STUN and Drain BODY (but not other types of Drain) and any other damage the GM allows it to affect in its category.” That is a direct quote form the book. People are focusing on part of the sentence and ignoring the rest. Damage Negation can affect any damage of the category it is bought for. This does not mean it affects all those types of damage all the time, or that it should never affect those types of damage. For Damage Negation to work it has to be an attack of the appropriate type. My NND could be some sort of microwave energy that heats the target from the inside ignoring all armor and a characters normal ED, but that attack is still energy. A character with Damage Negation energy would get it vs that attack. On the other hand my NND could be a direct attack on the characters soul. That attack is neither physical, energy or mental, so a character with all three types of damage negation would not affect it. This is no different than buying Desolidification with the limitation physical only. Would a character with that power take damage from a nerve strike even if they did not have the defense? The argument that Damage Negation is too cheap because of this does not change the fact this is how it is supposed to work.

@unclealad If the attack is outside one of the categories the character purchased damage negation for then it is not covered. So, the attack going against power defense would not be reduced by damage negation. Damage negation specifies it only works on attacks doing actual damage, and gives examples of it not working on entangles, flashes or transforms so why should it work on mind control? @Gauntlet Damage negation can apply to drain BODY or STUN, but if the attack has the right special effect. I could have a drain with the special effect of an electrical attack. If that is the case damage negation energy would work, if it drained BODY or STUN. Also, AVLD and NND can have physical or energy as the defense. An example is a nerve strike where the defense is ridged armor.

Check page 183 of the 1st rule book. It states there are 3 categories (Physical, Energy, and Mental). The third sentence in that section lists what type of damage it covers (Normal, AVAD, Killing etc.) and ends with any other type of damage the GM allows in its category. The phrase in its category makes it clear the attack has to be appropriate for the type of damage negation purchased. From the looks of it people have been overlooking that phrase and thinking it does more than it does. If it were allowed, I would copy and paste that paragraph.

When you buy damage negation you buy it for physical damage, energy damage or mental damage. If you bought it for physical, it does not affect the other two unless you also bought it for that. That applies no matter what the advantage or limitation on the power is. Damage negation only affects AVLD and NND attacks with appropriate special effects. So, if your NND is a nerve strike damage negation physical would apply, if it is a microwave gun that heats up the target form the inside damage negation energy applies. If the special effect is not physical, energy or mental damage negation does not apply. So, the NND that has a disease as its special effect is not affected by any damage negation. For many attacks the type of attack is going to be obvious, but if not, it is up to the GM to decide which if any category the attack fits in. The other thing to keep in mind is that while it affects AVLD and NND it does not stop them completely. Someone with 4 DCs of damage negation being hit by a 6d6 NND still takes 4d6 damage. With an NND you can often buy the defense for a couple of points. The defense of an NND of being immune to heat only cost 2 points. That 2 points will protect you from any amount of damage. Why is it ok to ignore someone’s 60-point power for 2 points, but to paying 20 points for 4 DCs of damage negation reducing the damage by 2d6 is not?

For comparison 60 points allows you to buy 40 points of resistant defense. That would actually total stop all the BODY from a 6d6 KA or the average stun from an 11d6 blast, that is also assuming the character has no other defenses. If you factor in hardened and impenetrable you would end up with about 26 points of resistant defense. That will stop all the BODY of 4d6 KA and roughly the average of a 7 1/2d6 Blast. In either case most GMs are going to have a problem with this much defense that does not have severe limitation on it. I can see allowing this much points to be used for a character that is supposed to be immune to a specific attack but would not allow either of these powers to be used vs all damage. Personally, I usually mix damage negation with more traditional defenses instead of relying solely on damage negation. I often use damage negation for force field effects instead of resistant defense. To me it makes sense that a force field stops all of the attack or none of it instead of it varying depending on how well the attacker rolls. It also works better vs continuing attacks up to the amount a certain amount of damage. This allows you to create a power that can protect you from ongoing environmental damage. Doing it this way can mean you don’t need to buy immunities or safe environments using LS. The problem with LS immunities is that it is all or nothing and does not actually reduce the damage you take from attacks. If I buy LS immune to heat for 2 points it does not reduce the amount of damage I take, unless the attack is an NND or has some strange limitation. I can also theoretically withstand any heat-based attack no matter how powerful, but still take damage from a campfire. If I take -4 DC of energy damage with the limitation fire only, I completely ignore any heat-based attack under 20 points, and it reduces the damage from anything higher. I think damage negation does have uses, but probably should not be used as the only defense.

I actually think damage negation is a decent power. It gives a better way to get closer to absolute immunity than anything else except a GM declaring it. In games that use critical hits this can and hit locations it is even better at it. Don’t forget that damage negation works vs NND, AVLD and other advantages that normal resistant defense does not. I use it as a replacement for old power force field. I can buy -12 DC’s of damage negation only vs fire for 30 points. If I am using resistant defense I will get 28 because I need to take hardened and impenetrable for it to work properly. Let’s say there are two characters that bought immunity to fire as defined above and has an addition 20 points of defense. The first character takes no damage from a 15d6 or less blast, and on the average can ignore an 18d6 blast. The second character will take no damage from an 8d6 blast and on the average can ignore a 13d6 blast. The first character will also ignore a 6d6 NND even if he does not have the defense. By the way you realize this thread has been dead for almost 19 years. The thread predates damage negation by quite a while. So, the question I have is thread necromancy an evil act? Or should that be answered in a different thread?

Is there any reason a character cannot have two or more separate sets of powers with taking the unified power limitation? Each set would only be affected by drains targeting powers in their own set. For example, a character with both fire and ice powers is hit with a drain that affects one of his fire powers so drains all the fire powers, but none of the ice powers.

The perceivable is basically the noisy limitation from the older editions. What it really means is that it draws attention to the person with the power. Under those rules someone who saw a spell caster casting an obvious spell would be able to “see” the spell being cast. A spell with the noisy limitation meant that any wizard had a chance of noticing the spell even if they were not looking where the spell caster was. I would not focus on the fact that specific powers from characters have the limitation. In the Hero System each power is unique and does not have to operate the way a similar power. One characters body of stone could be smooth and difficult to tell from normal flesh at a distance. Think of a carved marble statue. Another character's body of stone could be individual rocks like the Thing from the Fantastic Four. The first character could sound fairly normal when they move, the second could sound like chalk on a blackboard when the plates rub against each other. The first character would have the -0 limitation where the second would be justified in taking the -1/4. Both have the same power and similar special effect.

I would still require prewritten power instead of using the template @unclevlad presented. The reason to do that is that not everyone has all the modifiers memorized. The thing that slows down the game is having to look things up. Very few people are able to write up a power in their head and get everything right. To prevent seeming favoritism it is easier and fairer to simply say all powers need to be prewritten. In addition to having to look things up this also eliminates questionable powers or abusive powers that are legal. The only way to ensure that there is no distracting discussion on powers during combat is to have all powers defined before the combat starts. This would also mean any NND’s have to be defined before combat to prevent discussions on whether the defense is appropriate or how much of a limitation it is. Keep in mind that the problems affect both the player and the GM. If the GM is not capable of checking the power in his head including the math that will slow the game down just as much as the player looking it up. One of the main responsibilities of the GM is to ensure that the characters are appropriate for the game he is running. Having a player able to create things on the fly makes this incredibly difficult. This is one time where the GM should give the players little or no slack. Changing the special effect of a power that does not alter the game mechanics is fine. Changing an attack from physical to energy should also be fine. Changing the defense for an NND from immune to heat to mental defense is not. About as far as I would allow would be change the defense of an NND from immune to fire to immune to cold, immune to fire to longevity would not be acceptable.

The easiest solution to slowing down the game is to simply require that when in combat the spells have to be prewritten. Allow the player to change the special effect as a long as there are no changes to the power. For example you have a generic blast prewritten and the player can define it as a fire, cold, electrical or any other allowed special effect on the fly. They cannot make it AP or penetrating unless they have a prewritten blast with those limitations. Before the game starts the character can the character should have a long list of spells already written out. If the character is actually out of combat allow them to write up a power if it can be done quickly. Give a time limit on how long the character can take. By out of combat I mean don’t mean don’t mean that the character is unaware he is about to be attacked or is ignoring what is going on. I mean the game is not in phases. Unless the focus is on another character about a minute is about all I would allow the player to create the power during the game. So, if the party split up and the GM is running the other group the character can do what they want. If the focus is on the group the player is in they are under the limit. This restriction is on the player not the character so the cost of the VPP is not affected in any way.

It also depends on how you define the power. If your body of stone or meatal skin made a lot of noise when you moved it would get the limitation.

The way to do this according to the rules would be to buy a cosmic VPP (No skill roll, can be changes as a 0 phase) and take the requires skill roll as a limitation. That would mean you can change the pool at will, but to cast the spell you need to make the skill roll. If you are the GM, you could simply hose rule it that the roll is to cast the spell instead of changing it. If I were doing this in my campaign, I would probably use the this. I would still have the character pay for changing the pool as a 0-phase action. To me having to make the roll to cast is more limiting than for changing it. The standard way you only need to make the roll once if you are going to cast it multiple times, the other way you have to make the roll each time you cast the spell.

The other thing that the limitation might do is to give the person more information about the power besides that the character has it. In the case of resistant defense it would give an idea of how tough the armor is. Knowing how much defense the character gives the attacker some tactical advantages. If I know you don’t have a lot of resistant defense it lets me know that my medium to high dice KA will probably still get some damage through. If I know you have a ton a resistant defense using any KA is probably a poor choice. It also might give information about the advantages on the armor. If I know the armor is hardened using an AP attack is a waste of time.

After the initial setup it usually takes me about a week to prepare for a session. For the main villain of the session I usually spend a day or two writing them up. The minor NPC’s don’t take long and I often simply modify the stat block of an existing character or creature. The rest of the time is spent on analysis of the session. I try and get an idea of how the party will match up and try to avoid either a TPK, or a cakewalk for the party. If the NPC’s is going to be a recurring major figure in the campaign, I take more time to write them up. I usually put as much effort into those characters as I would a PC I play. That includes multiple builds to make sure the character has everything they should and some analysis on how the character will do against the campaign limits I have setup.

My character Devil Advocate that has a 50 PRE would destroy some large object and deliver a good soliloquy and hit them with about a 12+ dice PRE attack. After that use his persuasion to get them to line up neatly for when the officers arrive on the scene from processing. It’s been a while since I played the character, but I think I had a couple of skill levels that I can use for persuasion. That should give me an 11 or less after taking the -10 penalty for extraordinary skill use.

This sounds similar to a sequence attack from page 253 of HSMA. The way I would do it would be to simply use a conditional limitation on the attack that it requires multiple successive hits. I think a -1/4 for each successful hit would be about right. So, buy the attack with whatever advantages and limitations are appropriate and add an additional -1/4 limitation for each required attack. This assumes that a missed roll ruins the attempt. If that is not the case, then increase the number of attacks required. I would probably use a -1/4 limitation for each 2 required hits., -1/4 for 2 hits, -1/2 for 4 hits and so on.

What it really comes down to is how much of a liability you are, and what do you bring to the table. If you require constant protection, have no magic and the only useful skill you have is trading then your character is going to be a drag on the party. On the other hand if you can have some defensive capability, have lots of utility spells and a ton of useful skills you are probably ok. For example, if I had a thief character with an 18 DEX, 18 INT, 5 DCV, 3 SPD, 5 PD & ED. Then give that character Acrobatics, Breakfall, Climbing, Concealment, Lockpicking, Security Systems, Stealth and Streetwise and 1 Overall level. For talents I have Combat Luck, Danger Sense and Lighsleep. He can also cast an a few spells say Invisibility, Nightvision and Shapeshift. Does this character seem like he would be useful in the game? He has no real offensive power but can probably survive combat by hiding or avoiding it.

In Pathfinder the classes, feats, skill, spells and equipment are rules. Go to the rules forum and you will see posts on all of those. You may consider archetypes fluff, but they are in part of the rules. Pathfinder is in fact a rules heavy system. If you show up at a Pathfinder table with a character with a bunch of custom-built spells 99% of the GM’s are going to veto that character. If you show up with a character using 3rd party published material most GM’s will not allow that. If you are talking about organized play those numbers jump to 100% Organized play is probably one of the biggest reasons Pathfinder became popular. I personally do play in organized play but recognize that it did help the system gain popularity. Being able to simply show up at a place with a character without having prearranged party and being able to play got the game out there. If Hero System did something similar it might start picking up more players. Most of the time if you build your character using only the core rule book, your character is a big disadvantage vs a character built with more sources allowed. The equivalent in Hero would be saying you cannot use advantages and disadvantages when building your Champions character.

Most of the pathfinder books have new classes, spell, feats and other significant things. Pathfinder is a class based system with defined spell lists so none of that should be considered fluff. It’s not like in the Hero System where you can easily build your own spells or abilities. You are limited to picking from prewritten options. In the Hero System all the information you need is in the main rule book(s). I can create a Fantasy Hero character with spells without needing more than a single book. In Pathfinder unless the GM is restricting you to core only, you typically need multiple books to create a character. You class could be in one book, and your spells and feats scattered through half a dozen other books.