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Zarthose

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Posts posted by Zarthose

  1. On 2/8/2021 at 4:56 PM, Spence said:

    Not really.

    MinMaxer and Efficient Builder are pretty self-evident and don't really draw any big reactions from players

    PowerGamer on the other hand will cause many, if not most gamers to walk away from the table.

     

    People that are splitting hairs or playing semantics have never actually had one at the table (most people) or are PowerGamers trying to con their way back on to a table (a tiny number of gamers out there).

     

    One day you will meet an actual PowerGamer and at that time you will have no doubt.  

     

      You seam to have completely missed my point, I'll try again. You cite the 3 different names, each one clearly defined in your mind. The REST of this thread is filled with people who have their OWN ideas what those mean, some of whom agree with you, many who do not. Thus no consensus. The consensus part means that if you don't have a clear majority, and have no position of power ( like you designed the game for example)  Then you are just pushing your own definitions on others, with no basis. 
    If you read the OP, then you would know some call me a power gamer...So clearly that guy has different standards then you do. 

    If you have no agreement on what terms mean, then you cannot have any meaningful conversation about said topic. 
    Example Guy X says "Power gamers are bad", meaning the people who soend one point to have a planet killing power
                   Guy Y says "Power Gamers can be fine" meaning the guy who buys Dex at 18 is not broken, hes just using his points efficiently>

    Nether is talking about the same thing, though both are useing the same labels

  2. I'm glad I was able to make a post that engaged people. Many of you brought some great ideas to the discuession, others I felt brought some assumptions. That does not mean thier opinions lacked value. I do feel it is an assumption to think everyone uses, or MUST use your definitions. Since there have been almost as many answers as posts, I feel I can conclusively say there is no solid defination of what is a power gamer, minmaxer or efficient builder. Though I do feel the "efficient" builder probably falls on ther weaker side vs "min/maxer or power gamer". 
     

    I feel it might be more accurate to state how YOU define these terms for yourself, as opposed to stating these terms must apply for everyone. There is clearly a fluid dynamic here since if you pulled out a module and presented it at 2 different tables I strongly suspect any given character might fall on weak, sweet spot and  overpowered based more on the table then any arbatery set of numbers. If your character is two powerful for the table, then its bad, if he's too weak, IT's bad. If there are 5 characters all with an average defense of 25-35, then rolling in with a 10 is gonna be a problem just as much as rolling in with a 60. Since tyhe nature of the game rewards efficiency, and everybody likes to win, people will naturally buy powers, skills and stats a good break points, and like others have pointed out there are other ways that can be unbalancing...the guy with no flaws, and perfectly well rounded for example. 
     

      I started the discussion hoping to find some outside metric that might help me decide if I was power gaming, min maxing or just being efficient. The clear answer now is those labels are meaningless...since there is no universal agreement on their meaning, and their is also not outside metric as to what is "to much" or "just right" or " not enough"...People will judge that based on how well your character plays in game...yet a skilled player can frequently wring far more from a character then someone will less experience or imagination...thus further mudding the waters on whats powerful or not. 
     

    I do feel better after reading all the answers, and I hope others will keep in mind that the character they find overpowering will be a wimp at someone eleses table. This requires more oversite from the DM, and open communication between the players then just flat numbers.

  3.    I am glad I sparked an interesting debate, though I never expected to touch on normal human maxima. The conclusion I am drawing is power gaming is bad only in comparison to your table. At my table my OCV and DVC are in the expected range, my character would peek out at 14d6 vs 17d6 for the most powerful, my defenses are the weakest at the table( not by much) with fewer stun and con then most...but with a potential better DCV. I would have zero ranged attacked, but a a unlimited number of different MA attacks ( VPP Taskmaster style).

     

    Unclevlad made 2 examples of power gaming, and I thought it was funny because one example ( combining many smaller powers to get an unfair discount on a larger linked power) is in use at the table, and his other example is similar to my use of the VPP, though his example is more powerful. 

     

    As to discounts on powers, when I DM...I ALWAYS make them come up, a 1/4 discount SHOULD appear in 1 out of 4 games. When my frequently used "unified" gets me drained down to crap...when I dam well used those extra points in all the other games, sometimes you gotta pay the price. 

     

    I should say that if you build and play the "prefect" character, then you are denied many of the best story's and tropes. If you NEVER get captured, your escape artist and lock picking skills are less fun. I ALWAYS build in some major flaws, it helps the DM feel in control, and the other players not feel overpowered. I also never fear using ANY disadvantage you get points for to screw you over ( not excessively). The Thing is ugly, Daredevl cannot see through glass, and Wanda is a mutant ( some people hate mutants).  In our current game, the least optimized player was clearly the MVP last week, his crappy OCV did not matter when he area entangled a villian, and the overpowered blaster killed a villian with his attack( just to powerful) and that arguably was a fail. 

     

     

  4. Spence, 1st let me apologies for my mistake, I thought I was posting stretching, but my spellcheck decided to intervene. I respect your opinion, but disagree. Meaning I do not believe a good design idea is not incompatible with a good story. Clearly some people can min max, and role play, while others excel at one OR the other, but they are not incompatible. As others have said, degree matters, as does the power level of the table. I personally prefer to leave lots of holes in my character ...hopefully not fatal ones. This means there are many areas where I fail and other teammates shine, as well as roleplaying restrictions that also leave me vulnerable. I never mind flaws, I feel they are critical to a fun character, as is learning to overcome them in good gameplay. But my real question remains, is it "bad" to build with the mechanics of the game in mind? BTW, the current power gamer at the table does excellent roleplay. and I have been DMing the group for the past 6 months. I ALSO fall in that category, and will now be able to play, so I'm excited, but leery.

  5. I'm sorry if I did not make that clear, its ALWAYS the GM's call. Thats not in question. That question is not that, but weather or not a design philosophy is bad. 
    A short while ago I met a guy ( not this DM) who felt that ANY discount on your powers was like cheating, further more buying your stats at good break points was "gaming the system". While I disagreed with him, the next guy makes me question it. I felt the first guy was a hypocrite, because my use of that was criticized, while HE was the the only person at the table who did not use it...meaning I would have been the only player chastised for doing what everyone else was doing. The current DM is is a nice reasonable guy. But it still makes me think. 

    Is it gaming the system to chose a DEX18 instead of 17...because the break point works out better? Clearly you might be more likely to face someone who has a DEX 19...just to beat all the min maxers, but thats also fair to me. 
    Its not a particular power or combo I am asking about, but weather or not its "wrong, cheating, min/maxing" ect to always aim for the beat results for your points?

  6. Is it ethically wrong to work your character in a way that takes the most advantage of the system? I'm not talking about spending 1 point to mega scale kill a planet, I mean Like spiderman having a IIF for his multipower webs with tons of charges? Is it wrong to use the system to avoid endurance costs and getting a discount on his MP with something that only rarely comes up ? 

     

    In my case my DM asked me if getting screeching ( reach weapon) while being invisible was gaming the system or not. I felt it was not, but as I'm the guy planning on it, maybe I'm biased. This character would by no means be unbalanced for the table. Other players would for example have area attacks, or extra senses that would allow them to ignore my invisibility...So I assume our opponents would also have equal access. What do you guys think?

  7.    Thank you for the input. The current game I am running has no damage cap, and the intended user is a NPC...so cost and effectiveness do not play a part. This is more about their theme. Also, everyone at the school ( setting) is expected to learn MA...and multipowers are limited severely in game. This is to prevent blurring of roles...I didn't want everyone to fly/be invisible, have 7 different attacks ect. 

     

      So it looks like a naked advantage would be the way to go, or a 1 pip HTH 2x knockback...which would convert all DC , but not always have to be on. 

     

    I was just hoping for something that was not a cheesy dodge, or the worst buy possable

     

       

  8.     Hi guys, if I made a character with a 40 strength and used a fast attack ( +2 DC) and +1 HTH damage class....The norm is 11DC and roll 3D6 to subtract for knockback.

     

    The question I have is if his strength is bought with an advantage 2x knockback(+1/2), am I reducing his MA damage to 2DC but doubling his body for knockback to reflect his advantage on his Str...or am I figuring it as 8DC strength ( thus 16DC for knockback) + 3dc from MA...since the MA did not pay for the advantage? A third possibility is I have to pay for the advantage on the MA as well...but now that is  crazy expensive, so expensive, its an unplayable option
     

      For comparison I bring up lets say HTH attack. Buy 2D6 and Armor piercing , on that guy an unmodified 40 strength ( 8DC) now would have 2DC AP+ 6 1/2 DC for a total of 8 1/2 DC that is all AP...effectively getting a choice of base damage or AP damage while only applying the actual costs to 2DC of powers. 

  9. While I prefer the 6th edition, one ellement I dislike is how trasfer never fits in a multipower anymore. If its outside, the disadvantages acn equal the advantages...and net zero...but the active ponts frequently prevent this from being a viable choice...even when the real points are reasonable

     

  10. For me its about 2 key things, Power level and tone. If your characters are so powerful no normal can ever challenge them, then they do not fit. Superman can never fit. Tone means the heroes do not always say the day, that you can tackle topics that are uncomfortable and that there will be problems. 

     I like the netflix shows as a prime example, with Power man being immine to small arms, but still capable of being taken out by a skilled martial artist or a shotgun to the head. Where the characters out of combat skills and stories matter at much as the fight itself.  Thats just my personal take on it.

     

  11. Yes, however game has progressed to 320 points, I need to decide if I'm just gonna match you to the team. You can pick and chose your everyman skills. 

    Doc.  Highlander style immortal who also can heal people 

    Lilith.  Human-demon hybrid with a 50 strength and wings, private investor

    Grail. EMT with strong teleportation powers and can smell evil

    Current players

  12. Tranguione, I responded as well, sounded interesting, he responded a couple of times, then ghosted me. Thats frustrating. 

    EDIT, after checking again, I see he blocked me. While I can understand if he did not like my idea for a character concept, it would have been easy to say that. If he didn't like me based on a couple of paragraphs, I sure would have preferred to know what I said or did wrong to change that in the future. Tranq, If you are interested, we still have a slot open on our 300 pt dark champions style game for Wednesday nights, I'm running it on zoom. I am happy running the game, but was looking to play as well. 

  13. I have been working on the campain more and have a couple of minor house rules to add. 

     

    Immunity to all terrestrial diseases , or poisons under life support can be bought with a 1x free disadvantage. I just find it unlikely anyone will spend 10 points on this, or that it would be worth 10 points in gameplay. 

    I am hoping for a Wednesday night game maybe 3-4 hours 6-10 EST. but I can try and be flexible based on what ends up being the groups most available time slots. 

     

    To repeat the house rules:

     Max of 12 damage classes, max of 8 speed, 50 strength, OVC/DCV max at 10, Magascale locked at a max of +3/4...or 100:1, 8 free everyman skills, 4 free points in any language, No hunted to start,  No more then 150 points in "powers", a gun does not fall in this, No super tech to start, so handcuffs are find, power draining cuffs are not. Hopefully you will make a character capable of working with a group, I am looking for street heroes/vigilantes, to work in a city style campaign. Maxim total movement by any means, 150 mph. If other things come up, I will post them. If you have an idea, put it out there. 

     

    Shadow, I have zero problems with someone new, this is just for fun, and the rest of us can help. 

  14. If someone has "only in hero ID" I'm unclear on how that works? As a rule of thumb, should that be 30 seconds to switch IDs? Oe just a segment? If they want a completely different look ( human to demon) is that something they have to pay for ( shape change, transformation ect) or is that free? I just want to be fair, and am looking for guidance. Thank you for your time. 

  15. Hi Opale, I hoping to try Zoom( just like it says in the OP),with 2 cameras on me, one map, and one on my face. To better help convey nuance. Text often leads to misconceptions. I tried roll d20, and found it dropped people speaking when more then 2 spoke. Zoom seams to not have this problem...and i don't want anyone getting stepped on. I am open to other options. 

     

    Panpiper, I'm feeling this is a bit confrontational. But as this is text, I dont want to assume. You asked, and since I was unclear, I just asked Steve...lets give the man a second. 

     

    If "Only in hero" takes 12 seconds to switch, then thats well worth a 1/4. I still don't see that your disadvantage grants you the power to change shape. 

     

    As to the value of any disadvantage in a game, I'm sure that in your last game, your DM made it worth it. Thats a big assumption that I would run my game the same as them. Heck, I could just have a bunch of cops find you, and all shoot you with handguns...Normally zero would get though, but 10 cops each doing 1 body each could easily end you. Or I could have 2 cops with ar 15s and armor piercing bullets show up. The DM can ALWAYS kill you...Thats being a poor DM. You might die in a game I run, but you will never die because I planned it.

     

    You do not get 11 skill for free, but I like seeing it, it proves you can actually earn a living doing something, and will help gameplay when we include your non hero life at some points. Clearly you cant sneak into the mayors office as a demon...much easier to just walk in the front door. 

     

    Your speaking a language no one else speaks does not cost points, I dont change points for things that never come up in play. I have considered returning the points spent on longevity for just that reason...but some storylines might touch on it. This game will have vampires after all.  

     

    I hope we can craft some fun stories together, that means this will not just be my game, but our game. .

     

    One of my real world friends will be joining, hes building a teleporter. Thats all he said so far. 

  16. You get eight everyman skills of your choice, all at 8< for free. You also get 4 points of language for free...most have that in english, but its fair to say you have 2/2 English/ whatever if you grew up bilingual.

     

    The +2 to one attack does not cover two attacks. If you pay 3/level, it will cover up to 3 different attacks. 

     

    About the defense, I felt it was not limiting enough to be worth 1/4 the points spent on that defense. I'm not asking you to make it worse, just that I felt it was not restricting enough to be worth 1/4. I get it, she always looks bloody, but never really hurt bad. 

     

    As to the flight, I assumed the low point cost flight was to explain how you could cover great distances...I only have an issue with the total speed. Gliding is just a way to dramatically lower the cost, and skip END...which is fine. I'm just trying to keep total speeds down to lower numbers....If you are in NYC, and you could pop off to Boston in less time then it took to walk 2 city blocks then thats a different story then if you felt more confined by time/effort to travel. Thus the exact reason I targeted megascale. I did not list the other choice as I had not yet considered it. Lets just limit the max to 100 MPH. There is zero reason to ever concider the subway, a cab or a car if you always travel faster then everything else. Quicksilver was a classic speedster, and still maxed out at 150 mph, and nobody thought of him as a "street level" hero. 

     

    As to guns, I insist on Char points being spent on them. You may find ( and use) anything you find in game on the fly, but by the next game session, you ether gotta pay some points, or you tossed it, lost it, it broke, or felt strongly that guns are bad. Maybe you were violent in the past, and are bared from owning a gun. Or you paid the points. ( or get a prop gun, free) 

     

    About "only in hero form", I posted a question to Steve to make sure I am reading the rules right, and I'll update you as soon as I hear back. 

    If its not a disadvantage, its not worth any points is a rule I like to live by. For example, if you don't have transformation, or shapechange, how is getting 25% off a bunch of your powers a reason to give you free shapechange? I'm not saying you cant have more then one look, just that it should not be free. I remember some ruling that "Only in hero form" should take a while, or its not really a disadvantage....but since Steve is here I prefer to just ask. 

  17. Panpiper, Yes you can have a supernatural origin, I was going to add that in after some time of gameplay, but it serves no point if its your concept. I do have an issue with gliding at 3-400 MPH, its just not possible to fall sideways that fast :) . The point of restricting magascale was to eliminate the option of "I go wherever I want in seconds", so lets tone that down a bit. Your limit on your defenses is not something I agree with ( 1/4x seams to much for the penalty). I'm fine with the listed dis, and your character looks fun. Minor question, how do you transform? You have two shapes, but I don't see anyway to pay for that? How long to transform? Also, which attack gains the +2? 

    Some users of V Juice have physical mutations, and many people who see you will assume you developed your appearance as a result of exposure to the juice. Others will of course respond with religious ideas. A PI will fit in nicely. 

  18. Hello Shadow, and Panpiper, Yesterday this was a whim, to see if anyone is interested. Today I am working on details.

    Vampires/Werewolf would be each a 100 point package, plus skills, eq and base stats before the power up. Both would have to have the ability to infect others to replenish the troops, each with about 5,000 memebers to start world wide (undercover). Magic would not be a thing.

     

    DCV,OCV would maybe average 6-7, hard max of 10. Damage classes would be a hard max of 12, Defenses I can see letting go unlimited...if you just want to be immune, spend your points that way...You still can't fly, or hit, or teleport ect. 

    Banned would be multi-power and variable power pool, as I hope each hero would seam unique. Thats a lot tougher when everyone has a multi pool. Megascale would only be offered in a limited form. +3/4...scale would be 1:100. So 30 M teleport =3 km teleport. Enough to escape any intimidate danger, but you cant get to paris on a whim. Summon/Duplicates would be banned or limited...if you have 10 characters, then you have 10 actions each segment.  Multiform with a few limits....You alternate form cannot have more points value then the campaign  max( start 300, and a max of one extra form...like werewolf, or maybe 2...human/wolf/hybred. 

     

    I would want to see fleshed out characters who could survive as characters if they had no powers (IE, at least 18 skill points in non combat stuff, maybe a drivers licence, or a doctors licence ect. 

     

    Secret ID is worth 15 points...but only if you actually have and use your other ID, public ID is worth 10. Assume this is based on NYC, and powers are know, and have been for 5 years...its new, but public. All known powers come from a Drug "V Juice". Every 50 points in powers would get you a rank...So if you have 150 points in powers, then your a rank 3...even if you have a 300 point guy/gal. To much V Juice, and you go crazy. So rake 10 guys...they are scary, and almost certainly have some serious mental health issues. You may have no more then 150 points in powers...but a handgun does not count twords that limit. 

     

    You get 240 points for free, and can take up to 60 more as dis. for a total of 300.

     

    Hunted is blocked to start...If you are hunted, everyone is hunted...but only you get the points. Vigilantism is a thing, and its illegal, but not chased yet. Kill off 30 mobsters and leave the bodies in the street, and they are gonna call in the A Team ( Government sponsored Heros, all rank 5-6, plus training and eq). Beat up a wanted criminal and leave him tied up in front of the police, eh, they will likely look away. 

     

    The pandemic is not happening in this world, though uprisings and protests are happening, the last big ones were 2 years ago. 

     

    This would be a street level story...not saving the world, or changing the government. If you guys are Ok with it, I would include some dark tones. 

     

    Origins would be based on V Juice, werewolf or vampire, skill based or some combo of these. If you have an idea, just float it to me. If it involves something you want keep secret, then PM me. 

     

    There would also be some tone similar to the Boys ( amazon prime) just not at that power level. Total known number of powered people in the world would be under 2,000, most of them at rank 1-2. A full cases ( 200 doses) was stolen and sold off about 2 months ago....thats becoming a problem. 

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