BarretWallace

I tried a couple of times to establish contact, but long story short, NG shut me down.  The final "blow" came last Thursday when NG told me in no uncertain terms to butt out.  I am not 100% innocent of wrongdoing in this whole thing, and I've tried to admit that as a step toward reconciliation.  NG is having none of it.  In his words, I didn't just reject the character, I rejected, betrayed, and sabotaged him personally.  My arguments to the contrary are of no avail.  Never thought I'd see the day when a friendship collapsed over a clash at the game table, but I'm guessing it's because said friendship was already weaker than I thought by the time the clash took place.
 
Thank you all for your patience as I've tried to sort through this fiasco.  I've finally accepted in my own head that we are not going to be friends again any time soon, if ever.  I also got some feedback from the DM as part of my own mental "post mortem."  At least our D&D group (sans NG) is back to rocketing along as joyously as ever.  We just finished our first major story arc and are about to start another.

I tried a couple of times to establish contact, but long story short, NG shut me down.  The final "blow" came last Thursday when NG told me in no uncertain terms to butt out.  I am not 100% innocent of wrongdoing in this whole thing, and I've tried to admit that as a step toward reconciliation.  NG is having none of it.  In his words, I didn't just reject the character, I rejected, betrayed, and sabotaged him personally.  My arguments to the contrary are of no avail.  Never thought I'd see the day when a friendship collapsed over a clash at the game table, but I'm guessing it's because said friendship was already weaker than I thought by the time the clash took place.
 
Thank you all for your patience as I've tried to sort through this fiasco.  I've finally accepted in my own head that we are not going to be friends again any time soon, if ever.  I also got some feedback from the DM as part of my own mental "post mortem."  At least our D&D group (sans NG) is back to rocketing along as joyously as ever.  We just finished our first major story arc and are about to start another.

I tried a couple of times to establish contact, but long story short, NG shut me down.  The final "blow" came last Thursday when NG told me in no uncertain terms to butt out.  I am not 100% innocent of wrongdoing in this whole thing, and I've tried to admit that as a step toward reconciliation.  NG is having none of it.  In his words, I didn't just reject the character, I rejected, betrayed, and sabotaged him personally.  My arguments to the contrary are of no avail.  Never thought I'd see the day when a friendship collapsed over a clash at the game table, but I'm guessing it's because said friendship was already weaker than I thought by the time the clash took place.
 
Thank you all for your patience as I've tried to sort through this fiasco.  I've finally accepted in my own head that we are not going to be friends again any time soon, if ever.  I also got some feedback from the DM as part of my own mental "post mortem."  At least our D&D group (sans NG) is back to rocketing along as joyously as ever.  We just finished our first major story arc and are about to start another.

Yeah the Pinks have fallen a very long ways from what they once were.  They don't bust union heads these days but the work sickened Dashiell Hammett so much he left the agency.

I wonder if I fired the proverbial "golden BB" (shooters of LBX-10s in Battletech will understand the term) at a longtime friendship.  The shorter version: there's someone I've known since second or third grade.  Recently I invited him to join our D&D group.  The short version: it did not go well.   The longer version (and apologies in advance, there's a good bit to the story): I invited this friend of mine to join our bi-weekly D&D group.  Let's call him "new guy" or NG for short.  NG's other gaming group had started puttering out by that point.  Also, I knew that NG had some real-life issues that were hitting him kinda hard.  I thought that enjoying some light-hearted fun around our table might do him some good.   So, he introduces this character ("New Character" or NC) who, to put it politely, comes across as a raging @$$hole.  NC introduced himself to the party by sneaking up on us and holding a blade at my dwarf's throat.  Almost every word out of his mouth dripped with arrogance,  condescension, and contempt for others.  Highlights included calling the cleric "inferior" because he lacked Darkvision (kinda part and parcel with being human).  He scoffed at the gnome wizard's player because he didn't choose magic missile.  (Yes, this is unusual, but the wizard's player has been a friggin' genius at using spells creatively, and I like that he picks powers to fit a concept rather than maximize damage output).  The half-elf rogue "had promise" in this character's words because of his Elvish half.  Racist bigot, much?  Our party's camp was attacked at night, and my dwarf went to retrieve the wizard, who was busy identifying some magic items we'd found.  NC berated him for giving a sh*t about his friends, and berated the dwarf and the gnome for "not following the plan."  As if someone died and made NC the leader...and I'm sorry, if I want to associate with racist bigots in a roleplaying game, I'll join a crew of, say, Gestapo clearing the Warsaw ghettos (that's a rhetorical statement, as I have no stomach for flagrant racism in any game; I would never actually play Gestapo-type characters).   The dwarf reacted poorly to having a blade at his throat, and NC's relentless arrogance, condescension, and bigotry struck a nerve, so he started pushing back.  He openly called NC an @$$hole when he spoke ill of the others.  To the "inferior" comment, the dwarf replied, "So full of yourself."  And so on.  After a couple of sessions of this, NG decided to leave the group.   To be fair, I can get carried away at the game table.  The dwarf's anger was certainly fueled by some of my own.  NC's behavior reminded me almost perfectly of many of the jackwagons who bullied me in my younger years.  Still, I worked very hard to keep the conflict between characters, not players.  In my attempts to talk to NG about this, I emphasized time and again that my problem was with the character, not the player, and I maintained strict distinction between the two.   NG is having none of it.  The incident is now over a month old and I haven't heard a peep from NG since early March.  He hasn't responded to my messages via email or Book of Face.  He won't engage in even limited ways, such as token "likes" on my comments to his Book of Face posts.  The one thing I haven't tried yet is a phone call, and I'm not sure I trust him enough right now to visit his house.  I've given other groups much greater reasons to reject me, and yet they haven't.   What has me totally flummoxed is that a 40+year friendship appears to be on the ropes, maybe even over, because of a conflict between D&D characters.  Clearly I've touched nerves that I didn't know were there.  I thought the worst case scenario was that we might clash, cool off, and come to a mutual agreement that it wasn't meant to be.  Instead, it's been a month and a half of silent treatment with no end in sight.  I can see via Book of Face that NG appears to be engaging with everyone else normally, but is completely shutting me out.  Kinda hard to make amends if I don't even know what the real problem is and if I never get any responses.  I am quite capable of malice, but that was the farthest thing from my mind in this case.  I meant it as nothing more than the dwarf standing up for himself and his friends.   I know that I should let go of the whole thing, but that's proving a lot harder than I thought it would be.  Our play styles are radically different, that much is clear, but something else is going on that I can't put a finger on.  For the time being I've stopped reaching out.  Maybe this is for good; too early to tell.   If you made it this far, you get the gold star.  I appreciate your patience.

Finally dipping my toes after all these years (since '07!) into a HERO game pbp...please wish me luck!

All of 5e D&D is susceptible to minmaxing.  Peek into any D&D 5e forum to find endless discussions of whether war cleric is better than hexblade warlock, or what feats combine with which subclass abilities, or which subclass to "dip" into to minmax your multiclass build.  And endless complaints about how hexadins are unbalanced.

Ummm... Sure, but there really isnt much to tell.  The only part remotely difficult is hammering down how "broad" or "narrow" a chosen skill is going to be.  To go with an example in another thread: Driving.  Are you limited to 'civillian vehicles, up to and including RVs and maybe 10-ton straight trucks with automatic transmissions?  More limited that that?  Or would you prefer "if it has a seat and crawls across the earth, I can handle it?" 
 
Then you know which category you have: just cars and pick-up truck type things?   That is pretty narrow.  Might even be an everyman at "basic" level.
 
 
 
 
 
That I cannot do.  First, my computer is very near deas (I have been complaining about that for some time now) and as such it doesn't recognize this boars (I have to use my phone to visit here) or the scanner (for those wondering why no more scan work was being done lately).
 
Further, I dont use the HERO designer stuff.  I am techno-illiterate for the most part-- not to the point that "hook your computer up to a firewall" lead me to burn down the house or anything, but on the rare occasion I drop into rhe HERO designer forum, I have absolutely zero GD idea what language anyone is speaking or what the f they are talking about.
 
That is probably my own fault.  I did play with the HERO Maker software way back when, but very quickly realized that I derived considerable pleasure from the pencil and paper approach and gave the sotware away to friend way more into that sort of thing than I ever will be.
 
To this day, I can't even read a character that isn't  on a 2e character sheet without having to really stop and study it for a few minutes.
 
If you have specific questions though, and we have ever run into such a situation, I will be more than happy to field them.
 
 

That's my plan.  I've been holding out hope that things might change, but I had to let it go.  It hurts, yet it's a relief at the same time.
 
One thing I've never lost sight of is that it's the character, not the player, than I had a problem with.  I certainly don't blame NG for being affected by what's happened in his life.  If a reconciliation does happen some day, I'll do my best to let it happen.  If it doesn't, then I can still appreciate all the good times we had.  Wherever his life leads him, I hope he finds peace.

The best thinf I can tell you is this:
 
Don't be angry about what happens or will happen.
 
I heard a bit in a speech a xouple decades ago that I recently saw illustrated,
 
Two people who haven't seen each orher in some time discover each other again and begin talking.
 
"You have changed" said one, after a few minutes of conversation."
 
"I am changed.  Things have changed me."
 
It is not always that a person is at fault for who he becomes.

You made the effort. A non-answer is your answer. I would urge you not to hang on to hope that he will reach out some day. Take it from me, that's a wound that never stops bleeding. Consider the matter settled, and move on.

If I were to "fix" Hero somehow, I'd lower the entry barrier, or "energy of activation" as we call it in the chemistry world.  Get me a starter set, something like Call of Cthulhu's "Alone Against [X]" series.  Present me with a character and guide me through a short story.  Help me learn the rules by fleshing them out bit by bit, pointing out what skill to roll to resolve the encounter, etc.  Maybe have a few of these as ways to introduce Hero games in different genres.  Have a list of skills, powers, and equipment with their point costs, and dive into the underlying math later.  Maybe it's an age thing these days, but asking me to digest a massive chunk of game mechanics just to start play will result in a hard pass.  D&D is a mechanical mess, but I can throw together a character in less than an hour with minimal guidance, and be slaying orcs soon thereafter.  Hero is an excellent multi-drawer tool chest I can use to build anything, but to do that before I even start play is a turn-off.
 
It's a shame, really.  Had I devoted more time to finding and maintaining a Hero group, I would not need to learn a whole new system to play a whole new game; I'd just have to tweak the system I already know to fit that game.  I do still enjoy these forums because of the...interesting individuals here, plus the generally respectful tone of discussions we tend to have.
 
And dammit Old Man, now I can't get the image of that flying paladin out of my head.

Last night I tried calling NG.  He didn't pick up, so I left a voice mail.  That, as they say, is that.  If he ever reaches out, it will be getting to know him all over again because I'm not sure I know him at all anymore.

Last night I tried calling NG.  He didn't pick up, so I left a voice mail.  That, as they say, is that.  If he ever reaches out, it will be getting to know him all over again because I'm not sure I know him at all anymore.

I was introduced to hero back in the 1990s in college But stopped playing around 2000 and picked D&D back up mid2000s after a couple years wargaming.
 
But picked hero back up recently and running a game. I still like D&D including different editions and types like pathfinder or various OSR types(nd other RPGs) . but yeah I think hero is getting to be my go to system. The fact I can do anything with it and the math is easier balancing then say the CR system helps slot in making it my preferred go to system

I sent my cancel notice to D&D Beyond back in January.
 
WOTC finally got around to actually doing it 2 hours ago. 🙄

Thank you all!  Maybe NG just needs space...but if he had even said something basic like, "Not now, I need time" I'd hold off till he was ready.  Instead I'm in limbo with only my imagination for a guide.
 
 
We certainly have changed over time.  I'm not the same person I was when we first met, and neither is NG.  We haven't had very frequent contact for quite some time, though we are both middle aged men now, with our own lives.  Still, we have each gone down our own paths.  Maybe all this incident did was expose a rift that was already there but I didn't have the eyes to see.  Perhaps our respective life paths have just taken us farther apart than I realized.  Heh...as one example, there was a time when both NG and I were pretty hard-line Republicans.  Both of us abandoned that mindset years ago.  (That was also before the GOP became quite what it is today, but that's a whole other discussion).
 
 
I don't feel entirely safe stopping by.  If we last till middle age, we all accumulate some measure of mental baggage along the way.  For the game conflict to elicit the kind of response I've gotten...well, I just want to keep some distance for the time being, until I get some sense of where he and I stand.  If a conflict at the game table set him off, I want to scope out potential minefields more before I let my guard down enough to be around him.
 
I am considering the phone call though.  That's more personal than an email or FB chat, but still gives us both a margin of safety.  If that also fails to begin a reconciliation, then I am finally prepared to lay this matter to rest and leave the initiative in NG's hands.  And to say, "I'll miss you," 'cause I sure will if it comes to that.
 
I know these things do happen, that friendships have an expiry date (I really like that phrasing, BTW).  This is the first time I've had it happen with a friendship I never doubted would stand the test of time.  We'll see how the next few weeks go.  And yeah, my journal will continue to get a workout.

Thank you all!  Maybe NG just needs space...but if he had even said something basic like, "Not now, I need time" I'd hold off till he was ready.  Instead I'm in limbo with only my imagination for a guide.
 
 
We certainly have changed over time.  I'm not the same person I was when we first met, and neither is NG.  We haven't had very frequent contact for quite some time, though we are both middle aged men now, with our own lives.  Still, we have each gone down our own paths.  Maybe all this incident did was expose a rift that was already there but I didn't have the eyes to see.  Perhaps our respective life paths have just taken us farther apart than I realized.  Heh...as one example, there was a time when both NG and I were pretty hard-line Republicans.  Both of us abandoned that mindset years ago.  (That was also before the GOP became quite what it is today, but that's a whole other discussion).
 
 
I don't feel entirely safe stopping by.  If we last till middle age, we all accumulate some measure of mental baggage along the way.  For the game conflict to elicit the kind of response I've gotten...well, I just want to keep some distance for the time being, until I get some sense of where he and I stand.  If a conflict at the game table set him off, I want to scope out potential minefields more before I let my guard down enough to be around him.
 
I am considering the phone call though.  That's more personal than an email or FB chat, but still gives us both a margin of safety.  If that also fails to begin a reconciliation, then I am finally prepared to lay this matter to rest and leave the initiative in NG's hands.  And to say, "I'll miss you," 'cause I sure will if it comes to that.
 
I know these things do happen, that friendships have an expiry date (I really like that phrasing, BTW).  This is the first time I've had it happen with a friendship I never doubted would stand the test of time.  We'll see how the next few weeks go.  And yeah, my journal will continue to get a workout.

I wonder if I fired the proverbial "golden BB" (shooters of LBX-10s in Battletech will understand the term) at a longtime friendship.  The shorter version: there's someone I've known since second or third grade.  Recently I invited him to join our D&D group.  The short version: it did not go well.   The longer version (and apologies in advance, there's a good bit to the story): I invited this friend of mine to join our bi-weekly D&D group.  Let's call him "new guy" or NG for short.  NG's other gaming group had started puttering out by that point.  Also, I knew that NG had some real-life issues that were hitting him kinda hard.  I thought that enjoying some light-hearted fun around our table might do him some good.   So, he introduces this character ("New Character" or NC) who, to put it politely, comes across as a raging @$$hole.  NC introduced himself to the party by sneaking up on us and holding a blade at my dwarf's throat.  Almost every word out of his mouth dripped with arrogance,  condescension, and contempt for others.  Highlights included calling the cleric "inferior" because he lacked Darkvision (kinda part and parcel with being human).  He scoffed at the gnome wizard's player because he didn't choose magic missile.  (Yes, this is unusual, but the wizard's player has been a friggin' genius at using spells creatively, and I like that he picks powers to fit a concept rather than maximize damage output).  The half-elf rogue "had promise" in this character's words because of his Elvish half.  Racist bigot, much?  Our party's camp was attacked at night, and my dwarf went to retrieve the wizard, who was busy identifying some magic items we'd found.  NC berated him for giving a sh*t about his friends, and berated the dwarf and the gnome for "not following the plan."  As if someone died and made NC the leader...and I'm sorry, if I want to associate with racist bigots in a roleplaying game, I'll join a crew of, say, Gestapo clearing the Warsaw ghettos (that's a rhetorical statement, as I have no stomach for flagrant racism in any game; I would never actually play Gestapo-type characters).   The dwarf reacted poorly to having a blade at his throat, and NC's relentless arrogance, condescension, and bigotry struck a nerve, so he started pushing back.  He openly called NC an @$$hole when he spoke ill of the others.  To the "inferior" comment, the dwarf replied, "So full of yourself."  And so on.  After a couple of sessions of this, NG decided to leave the group.   To be fair, I can get carried away at the game table.  The dwarf's anger was certainly fueled by some of my own.  NC's behavior reminded me almost perfectly of many of the jackwagons who bullied me in my younger years.  Still, I worked very hard to keep the conflict between characters, not players.  In my attempts to talk to NG about this, I emphasized time and again that my problem was with the character, not the player, and I maintained strict distinction between the two.   NG is having none of it.  The incident is now over a month old and I haven't heard a peep from NG since early March.  He hasn't responded to my messages via email or Book of Face.  He won't engage in even limited ways, such as token "likes" on my comments to his Book of Face posts.  The one thing I haven't tried yet is a phone call, and I'm not sure I trust him enough right now to visit his house.  I've given other groups much greater reasons to reject me, and yet they haven't.   What has me totally flummoxed is that a 40+year friendship appears to be on the ropes, maybe even over, because of a conflict between D&D characters.  Clearly I've touched nerves that I didn't know were there.  I thought the worst case scenario was that we might clash, cool off, and come to a mutual agreement that it wasn't meant to be.  Instead, it's been a month and a half of silent treatment with no end in sight.  I can see via Book of Face that NG appears to be engaging with everyone else normally, but is completely shutting me out.  Kinda hard to make amends if I don't even know what the real problem is and if I never get any responses.  I am quite capable of malice, but that was the farthest thing from my mind in this case.  I meant it as nothing more than the dwarf standing up for himself and his friends.   I know that I should let go of the whole thing, but that's proving a lot harder than I thought it would be.  Our play styles are radically different, that much is clear, but something else is going on that I can't put a finger on.  For the time being I've stopped reaching out.  Maybe this is for good; too early to tell.   If you made it this far, you get the gold star.  I appreciate your patience.

Thank you all!  Maybe NG just needs space...but if he had even said something basic like, "Not now, I need time" I'd hold off till he was ready.  Instead I'm in limbo with only my imagination for a guide.
 
 
We certainly have changed over time.  I'm not the same person I was when we first met, and neither is NG.  We haven't had very frequent contact for quite some time, though we are both middle aged men now, with our own lives.  Still, we have each gone down our own paths.  Maybe all this incident did was expose a rift that was already there but I didn't have the eyes to see.  Perhaps our respective life paths have just taken us farther apart than I realized.  Heh...as one example, there was a time when both NG and I were pretty hard-line Republicans.  Both of us abandoned that mindset years ago.  (That was also before the GOP became quite what it is today, but that's a whole other discussion).
 
 
I don't feel entirely safe stopping by.  If we last till middle age, we all accumulate some measure of mental baggage along the way.  For the game conflict to elicit the kind of response I've gotten...well, I just want to keep some distance for the time being, until I get some sense of where he and I stand.  If a conflict at the game table set him off, I want to scope out potential minefields more before I let my guard down enough to be around him.
 
I am considering the phone call though.  That's more personal than an email or FB chat, but still gives us both a margin of safety.  If that also fails to begin a reconciliation, then I am finally prepared to lay this matter to rest and leave the initiative in NG's hands.  And to say, "I'll miss you," 'cause I sure will if it comes to that.
 
I know these things do happen, that friendships have an expiry date (I really like that phrasing, BTW).  This is the first time I've had it happen with a friendship I never doubted would stand the test of time.  We'll see how the next few weeks go.  And yeah, my journal will continue to get a workout.

Sadly, every relationship has an expiry date. If you're lucky, that date is when one of the people involved passes on. Very often it's much earlier. Over time people change, circumstances change. People may gradually drift apart, or something unexpected may happen that drives a wedge between them. It isn't necessarily anyone's fault, or because someone did something wrong. No one is to blame if they couldn't see it coming.
 
That sort of thing has happened several times in my life, involving people who mattered a lot to me. I never would have imagined they would react to me as they did. It's a shock, and a grief, but if they really want you out of their life there's nothing you can do.
 
I would advise you to make that 'phone call. If you don't make your best effort to salvage your friendship, you'll always regret that. Maybe you can, but even if you fail, you'll know that you tried. And if you fail, it will be easier for you to accept that you have to move on.

While Cygnia is correct: you have no obligation to do anything, I twnd to agree with LL when these things happen (and as he said: they _do_ happen.  It used to be one every two or three years, then we had that one guy in the white house and I lost huge swaths of friends and family).
 
I don't get in a panic; I don't get desperate--  I remind myself first of who they were the last rime I spent time with then, and the one before, and the one before--  I just want to see if there  has been a pattern that I missed before.  Often times, that answers the question for me.
 
When I am not seeing-  I just go on as normal: greerings when i see them, email, phone calls, swinging by to check on them.
 
See, I have no teouble making friends (lucky, I guess), but when I decide that someone is my friend, they are my friend until they either become a radically different person, or until they tell me that they are done with me. 
 
My friends are important to me, and I am going to make certain that  they are okay or that we aren't friends.   I am not going to spend thirty years wondering--  I did that already; it cost me a lot in subsequent relatiinships, and I am not ever soing it again.  Before I cut you out of my life, I am going to confirm either that you have become someone I dont care for any longer, or that you are done with me,  but it is not going to be left hanging or uncertain.
 
You are either going to tell me "Yes; I have embrassed being an ass" or "hey, I just dont think we have the commonality we once had, and maybe we just need to move on."
 
But no matter what, you are going to tell me, in your words, becauae-  well, if I have been your friend, I have never asked you for anything beyond your company or your thoughts.  I _deserve_ you being honest enough to look me in the eye and tell me what is going on, and I know this sounds bossy or pushy to any non-extroverts out there, bur I am going to _keep_ coming at you until I get a definite answer and reason.
 
I have told you all about L, the woman I pursued and,gave up on, only to have her come back into my life--  this went on for ALMOST THIRTY YEARS!  You ever wonder why a sixty-three year old man has kids in ninth grade?   She is why!
 
But this story isn't about her; it is about her younger brother J.  The middle child.  Always seemed like a good kid- always craved attention and conversation.  After he for out of high school, he disappeared.   Flat disappeared.  Every onve in a blue moon, he would call and ask for some money to be wired- sometimes his folks; sometimes,his sisters (he was the middle child) and twice across twenty years, me.  I would call his mother (his father had passes,the second time he called- wanted money to come to the funeral and didn't feel right asking his family just then.)
 
So I sent it to him.
 
I did not say "how are you holding up?"  I did not say "why don'r I xome get you?"  I did what everyone else did: well, he kind is went nuts ans headed out west amd joined a commune and I guess he'a happy, if  broke."
 
Just a few years later his mother recieved a letter from 
 
 
You know what?  The short,version is that I onve had a solid friendship with a guy who debeloped schizophrenia, and I didnt know,it and his family didn't know it bevause we made aasumptions that he had just gotten a bit more odd, and we knew nothing,until his mother was asked to go California to claim his body.  Here she met several people who knew him and learnes that for the last three years of his life he had been in a rehab then a psych ward and his favorite thing to talk about was that any minute now, they (his family) are going to come get me.  He would jump excitedly every time the main doors opened, for _three years_,  then he got a sad look, walked out, and they found him two weeks later.
 
I don't mean to imply that your friend is having psychological issues; I really don't mean that at all.
 
I am just saying that from eventa in my life, I take am active role in a friendship, and I will _make_ you tell me if there is a problem, and what it is.
 
So yeah.  Call.  Stop by.  Even if (and it probably is) it is just someone who has  grown in a new direction, you still want to know for certain.
 
 

That was one of my experiences. The person just didn't want me in their life any more. It was over a relatively minor thing that snowballed, which I hadn't even recognized. I had to say goodbye, and that hurt a lot, but I had clarity anyway.

The phone call is probably a good idea, but I'd also be mentally prepared to say "I'll miss you" if it falls apart.
 
The only other path I can think of is if there are mutual friends you can contact, who might know more, or who can help reach out.  
 

Please don't put yourself through stress, pain and guilt to contact someone who is toxic.  You have no "obligation" to reach out.  Your obligation is to keep yourself safe.