Normal Human

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

1= Given origin stories that change everything from children to old folks into powerhouses with stats "beyond the ken of men"

of course there's no hard cap on stats.

I never said there was.

 

2= At some point, people go from being impressed or awed by a person's stats ("Damn! that person is !") to looking at what a character can do and deciding that what they are seeing simply is not human ("OMG! are among us! Please don't ") or they start worshipping them or ...

It's a continuum. Not a step function.

 

1000 years ago, a man who could lift a motorcycle's worth of weight over his head, let alone -throw- it after doing so, would have been considered inhuman.

Now a significant portion of the population regularly trains to be strong enough to accomplish similar feats.

Evolution + better living conditions + better training methods have changed the upper limits of what we consider peak human performance.

(There was a time when the 10 sec hundred yard dash and the 4 minute mile were both considered impossible.)

 

3= The "past some point it costs 2x to improve a stat" models this reality better than hard caps would.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

You do realize that the default 'cap of 20' on base stats from NCM is not actually a maximum right? It is just the point at which any increase beyond costs double. 30 is the actual 'hard cap' that would apply to most base stats of 'normal humans' like Captain America and Batman.

 

It may not be included in the description of NCM but it IS in the book. 20 is not a hard cap.

 

Is that the section that begins "For purposes of analyzing characters and their Characteristics, many HERO System campaigns use seven categories:" and includes the line "Each GM determines for his own campaign what numbers fall within these seven categories."?

 

So a suggestion IS in the book but no, a 'hard cap' of 30 is not.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

While it's not explicit the general acceptance is that if NCM is taken or in place (under the 5E model) then the Superhuman Category (where you place it, the suggest 30 from the book or something else) is the Hard Cap.

 

Now, I have both used and ignored the idea of a Hard Cap in many games. In all cases it was essentially moot as no one reached it. But that's only been in the dozen or so games I've run in the last 1 years. And I don't run often or long.

 

By by a straight reading of the rules, NCM does not have a Hard Cap, especially when you go pre-5th Ed and the seven categories weren't there. With the advent of 5th and the suggested categories we could look at NCM and define not only the breakpoint of NCM, but the Hard Cap to close it.

 

While I tend to play as jtelson suggests is the rule (with a Hard Cap in place); I lean towards Hyper-Man's actual interpretation as the correct one from a RAW stand point: there is no such thing as Hard Cap.

[JmOz]

Re: Normal Human

 

While it's not explicit the general acceptance is that if NCM is taken or in place (under the 5E model) then the Superhuman Category (where you place it, the suggest 30 from the book or something else) is the Hard Cap.

 

Now, I have both used and ignored the idea of a Hard Cap in many games. In all cases it was essentially moot as no one reached it. But that's only been in the dozen or so games I've run in the last 1 years. And I don't run often or long.

 

By by a straight reading of the rules, NCM does not have a Hard Cap, especially when you go pre-5th Ed and the seven categories weren't there. With the advent of 5th and the suggested categories we could look at NCM and define not only the breakpoint of NCM, but the Hard Cap to close it.

 

While I tend to play as jtelson suggests is the rule (with a Hard Cap in place); I lean towards Hyper-Man's actual interpretation as the correct one from a RAW stand point: there is no such thing as Hard Cap.

 

Point of order:

 

The seven catagories did exist in 4th edition, in various genre books, I recall it in Western Hero, I know it was in others, but don't remember which ones off the top of my head

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

cool, I'm out of Rep for the day, so I'll have to let it recharge. I never bought any of the 4E Genre Books. Thanks for the info.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Well established Marvel canon is the effect of his origin story is to put Steve Rogers at the peak of what is physically possible for normal humans.

 

"Peak human ability" is, in established Hero terms, a characteristic of 30. All stats above are considered "superhuman". A character built with 30's across the board with comparable Figured's) would be hugely disadvantaged in point terms taking NCM. And nothing prevents a character with NCM having STR 40 - the cost above 30 (the peak of human performance for physical stats - it's 50 for mental stats) is the same as the cost above 20.

[JmOz]

Re: Normal Human

 

In the chat function I have been corrected, Cool to know. While the concept was in the Genre books, the numbers and names of catagories (And number for that matter, only 6 catagories) were all different. Like I said conceptualy similar

[ideasmith]

Re: Normal Human

 

Oops. Sorry.

 

And I quote my previous post...

 

 

Champions 5E. Not HERO 5ER.

 

Upper LHS of page. Column on edge rather than in main body text. Page number is even in the alphabetical index at the end of the Champions 5E sourcebook.

 

The only reference to NCM in 5ER is on p19-20 tacked inappropriately under Age.

(Inappropriate because actually -reading- the section makes it clear that Age and NCM are independent DisAds. One can take both Age and NCM simultaneously. NCM is not a sub-catagory of Age RAW although NCM limits can be modified by Age.)

 

EDIT: Ghost_Angel quoted below

[Bloodstone]

Re: Normal Human

 

Well established Marvel canon is the effect of his origin story is to put Steve Rogers at the peak of what is physically possible for normal humans.

 

He's beyond peak human in a few areas.

 

It's been established that Cap can sprint at roughly 60mph and can sustain that speed for at least a minute at a time, possibly longer. The fastest man in the world currently clocks in at just a hair over 23mph.

 

And before anyone asks, that's from Captain America 65th Anniversary Special. It's a modern story published a few years ago, but it was set in the 40's so it's not supposed to represent some recently powerd up version of Steve or anything like that.

 

Granted, it's something of an outlier, but it's in official cannon.

 

In any event, that alone makes him superhuman. Though arguably the ability to ignore inconvenient biological restrictions that make it impossible to be peak human in all physical areas simultaneously is something of a super power on it's own....

[torchwolf]

Re: Normal Human

 

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, the Original Post was intended to illustrate the absurd extent to which NCM did not cover the limits of human abilities.

 

All it ever did was double the cost of Characteristics, and some movement Powers, above a certain point. It does not prohibit the character from purchasing FTL Travel, which I off-handedly assume humans are incapable of.

Granted, the term "Normal Characteristics Maxima" can be interpreted as the max limit of normal human abilities, but IMO there is no reasonable way to apply it to a Superhero campaign in a meaningful way unless you add a bunch of house rules.

Back when I got the 4th Edition BBB, happy that I was, I made a few characters using the NCM Disadvantage, but immediately ran into the game balance issues that such a character becomes a bit too limited to be an effective fighter - mostly because of the SPD 4 and DEX 20 limits, which really penalized Martial Artists who were supposed to be human but able to fight along superhumans.

Scratch one reason to use NCM (as written) in such campaigns.

Another issue came up when I thought about the "Superpower Neutralizer": if such a device could be used to make superhumans "normal", would imposing NCM limits on such a character achieve the effect? Absolutely not.

Scratch another reason to use NCM as written.

Upon these reflections, I saw no reason to use them in a superheroic campaign at all - better to define baseline categories and let exceptional characters exceed them where reasonable for the concept.

I still think it would be neat if it could be easily represented how a superpowered character would look if depowered, but as for now, that simply has to be judged on a case-by-case basis - the same situation as with normal humans with superior abilities. It is IMO not any NCM limit that makes the Big Bat's abilities mysteriously capable; I think it rather helps his concept (and similar concepts) to not have an absolute limit to human capabilities.

 

I strongly suggest using some variant of the optional rules from way back in Dark Champions 4th Ed - if you are going to use NCM at all, let a character take it at 5 points less to exceed it by 1 level (say +20-25% points) in one Characteristic, and 10 points less to do it in two Characteristics. Alternatively, pay 5 or 10 points if you use no Disadvantage for it. This can allow characters to develop differently than they might otherwise do once they reach the increased-cost limits.

 

All of this is as of 6E now a moot point (cost-wise, although the max-Characteristic-per-character issue may still be considered if those optional rules are used).

 

For that matter, Steve Rogers is an excellent example of an enhanced human, not a normal human.

 

Finally, I would like to express my complete agreement to the fact that NCM is not an SFX, not even a game mechanism, beyond it's establishment of an increased cost multiplier, much like paying for a +1 Advantage.

Using it with Age is even more dubious and tends to fit almost only limping old wizards well. Even they could just boost themselves to incredible fighting machines using magic, bypassing the Disadvantage altogether.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

He's beyond peak human in a few areas.

 

It's been established that Cap can sprint at roughly 60mph and can sustain that speed for at least a minute at a time, possibly longer. The fastest man in the world currently clocks in at just a hair over 23mph.

 

And before anyone asks, that's from Captain America 65th Anniversary Special. It's a modern story published a few years ago, but it was set in the 40's so it's not supposed to represent some recently powerd up version of Steve or anything like that.

 

Granted, it's something of an outlier, but it's in official cannon.

 

In any event, that alone makes him superhuman. Though arguably the ability to ignore inconvenient biological restrictions that make it impossible to be peak human in all physical areas simultaneously is something of a super power on it's own....

-------------

Captain America is probably the greatest symbol of Truth, Justice, and the American Way to ever live. He was the pinnacle of what a soldier could be - an inherently good man who fought for what was right and did what he could to make the world a better place. When you think of justice and a symbol of America, the first person to pop into mind is him-the living symbol of America and freedom. Many heroes not only admire for what Captain America stands for, but look up to him as a role model.. He was on of the greatest patriots Earth had ever known. The world as been saved countless times by Cap's leadership, courage, and pure will. He was one of the greatest combatants, strategists, leaders, and most motivating man most had ever seen.

 

But Captain America, Steve Rogers was a man, too, and this is one of the most important things to remember as you look upon his legacy. He did not have powers, only discipline and hard work. He was not an alien and he was not given powers he didn't want. Cap was a man-a man who fought for what was right. And it lasted like that, for a long time. He never backed down from any challenge, or stopped fighting for what he thought was right.

 

Captain America Origin and Golden Age

On July 4, 1917, a baby was born on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, to an Irish immigrant woman named Sarah Rogers. Her husband, Joseph, was elated they had a new baby boy. They named him Steven Grant Rogers. Steven was always a courageous kid-he tried new things as a toddler all the time. It's notable to mention that he grew up while World War 1 was raging across Europe, giving him a little experience with war. He wasn't very athletic, and was quiet and introverted. Although he would eventually grow to 6'2, he was scrawny and weak-always last in athletic games (much like one Peter Parker that would be born much later before a radioactive spider bite). He possessed a fierce loyalty, a fighting spirit, and a good heart inside him, though-one the world would see later. He had no future in athletics, so he majored in fine arts and was a particularly good artist-he specialized in illustration. His life changed, though, when Nazi forces swept across Europe, starting World War II. The Japanese, who were the Nazi's allies, bombed the U.S in Hawaii at Pearl Harbor, so young Steve Rogers, out of loyalty to his country and his patriotic duty, tried to enlist to fight on the front line against Axis forces.

 

He was immediately rejected do to being physically frailty, classified a 4-F. Steve was puny-he didn't get anywhere near passing the physical exam to join. Although he wanted with all his heart to serve him country, there was nothing he could do. He made an impression on the Army recruiters and trainers, though-he desperately wanted to join-it was his dream to fight for America.

An officer was looking for test subjects for an experimental procedure, part of a top-secret defense plan only known of by less then twelve men. It was Operation: Rebirth. The plan was to create physically superior soldiers with a new serum-the Super-Soldier Formula. If it worked, it would make our soldiers super soldiers-he-men who had the grace, strength, speed, and nerve of two Olympic athletes.

 

After a tough process to choose the lucky subject, Rogers was chosen to be the first one who the Super-Soldier Formula was administered to. One Dr. Abraham Erskine, Dr. Erskine, developed the process and administered it to Rogers. He was injected with the Super-Soldier formula and ate some, and then was hit by Vita-Rays that activate and stabilize the chemicals in his system. The process worked perfectly. Steve Rogers' system and body was boosted to the maximum in human efficiency. He also virtually tripled in weight as tens of millions of healthy cells were created almost instantaneously. His muscles and reflexes improved to the peak that a human's could be at. Steve marveled-he had become a specimen of human power as all weakness and deficiencies drained from his body.

Just then, a Nazi spy burst in with a gun. He cried "Hail Hitler" in German and shot Erskine through the head. Abraham Erskine died-and he had committed the Super-Soldier serum's ingredients, along with much of the procedure, to memory. The secret died with him-Steve Rogers would be the only super soldier made. He chased after the Nazi spy and broke his neck, killing him. He then vowed to use his power to fight the enemies of America and be a symbol of freedom.

------------

 

So if you see a story where Steve Rogers is running at 60mph for more than a minute, either

a= biologists have proven that the human body is capable of doing this

or

b= the story is part of the few plotlines where giving Steve true superhuman abilities is explored. Steve has always rejected these upon detailed reflection or experiment.

 

IMC, Steve moves at SPD 5 and has 13" run (45-50mph sprint IIRC), can leap ~2x his own height straight up, "cling and jerk" a motorcycle and then use it as a missile weapon, etc.

The improvements of his origin to his neural system made him Ambi-Dexterous and gave him Perfect Timing, Bump of Direction, Rapid Healing, and a few other Talents.

 

His physical stats and Talents allow him to do things with that Adamantium shield that no one else has ever been able to duplicate.

(although some have come close)

[Bloodstone]

Re: Normal Human

 

So if you see a story where Steve Rogers is running at 60mph for more than a minute, either

a= biologists have proven that the human body is capable of doing this

or

b= the story is part of the few plotlines where giving Steve true superhuman abilities is explored. Steve has always rejected these upon detailed reflection or experiment.

 

a) Biologists have not proven the human body is capable of this.

In over 100 years of precision measurements, humans have managed to go from sprinting approximately 19 mph to doing about 23mph. Even if the human body were capable of it, there's no way someone without superhuman physiology could survive the strain and the heat the body would generate. Cheetah's can't do this and they are specialized for it. Caps ability to both reach that kind of speed and survive the fallout indicates a level of superhuman ability.

 

I already explained that this was a story set in the 40's and not the result of a plot line where he was given "true superhuman powers". Like I said, it's an outlier, but it's in cannon.

 

There are other examples of Rogers doing things that are arguably superhuman, this one just sticks out a bit more than others because you can look right at the numbers and know somethings "off". No guesstimating weights or the durability of objects or things like that.

 

IMC, Steve moves at SPD 5 and has 13" run (45-50mph sprint IIRC), can leap ~2x his own height straight up, "cling and jerk" a motorcycle and then use it as a missile weapon, etc.

 

You recall correctly. That's an NCM of approx 48 mph and, considering it's more than twice as fast as the fastest man in the real world, pretty darn superhuman.

 

For the record, the lift is called a "Clean and Jerk". The impressiveness of that feat depends in no small part on just what kind of motorcycle he's lifting and throwing. It's a bit less impressive with a Ninja than a Goldwing

 

His physical stats and Talents allow him to do things with that Adamantium shield that no one else has ever been able to duplicate.

(although some have come close)

 

Not even that normal human Taskmaster, whose whole schtick revolves around him perfectly duplicating stuff Cap and other skilled combatants can do?

 

And the shield is not Adamantium, though that's a common error that has even appeared in various comics due to a misprint in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

 

The shield is actually a vibranium/Iron alloy. Attempting to recreate this mystery alloy is what resulted in the creation of adamantium.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

a) Biologists have not proven the human body is capable of this.

In over 100 years of precision measurements, humans have managed to go from sprinting approximately 19 mph to doing about 23mph. Even if the human body were capable of it, there's no way someone without superhuman physiology could survive the strain and the heat the body would generate.

That's humans =now=. What we can do now has nothing to do with what we might be able to ultimately do given evolution.

 

Cheetah's can't do this (run at 60pph) and they are specialized for it. Caps ability to both reach that kind of speed and survive the fallout indicates a level of superhuman ability.

Not correct.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Cheetah-Land-Speed-Record-Sarah-Sets-New-100m-Record-In-Cincinnati/Article/200909215379001

 

So the world's record for Cheetah's in the 100m is 6.13 secs and I know from other sources that 70-75mph is =normal= for a cheetah.

 

...and NOTHING canon suggests Steve Rogers could match a cheetah in these regards.

 

I already explained that this was a story set in the 40's and not the result of a plot line where he was given "true superhuman powers". Like I said, it's an outlier, but it's in cannon.

 

There are other examples of Rogers doing things that are arguably superhuman, this one just sticks out a bit more than others because you can look right at the numbers and know somethings "off". No guesstimating weights or the durability of objects or things like that.

So someone at Marvel screwed up. They are allowed to make mistakes too.

 

 

You recall correctly. That's an NCM of approx 48 mph and, considering it's more than twice as fast as the fastest man in the real world, pretty darn superhuman.

Not according to the sports docs and biologists I've talked to. The human frame (skeleton and joints) =is= capable of achieving and surviving these levels of performance.

 

But we have not yet evolved the muscle and energy efficiency to pull it off.

 

For the record, the lift is called a "Clean and Jerk". The impressiveness of that feat depends in no small part on just what kind of motorcycle he's lifting and throwing. It's a bit less impressive with a Ninja than a Goldwing

Yep on both counts and thanks for the correction.

 

Not even that normal human Taskmaster, whose whole schtick revolves around him perfectly duplicating stuff Cap and other skilled combatants can do?

Steve and Taskie have faced each other one on one and proven Taskie can't handle Cap's shield as well as Steve can.

 

And the shield is not Adamantium, though that's a common error that has even appeared in various comics due to a misprint in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

 

The shield is actually a vibranium/Iron alloy. Attempting to recreate this mystery alloy is what resulted in the creation of adamantium.

You are correct. I had forgotten about the OHotMU mistake.

 

..and I thought it was some nonstandard form of iron called "elemental iron" or somesuch?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Normal Human

 

That's humans =now=. What we can do now has nothing to do with what we might be able to ultimately do given evolution.

 

This is a very slippery slope argument in my eyes and expands the definition of peak human considerably...

 

Not correct.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Cheetah-Land-Speed-Record-Sarah-Sets-New-100m-Record-In-Cincinnati/Article/200909215379001

 

So the world's record for Cheetah's in the 100m is 6.13 secs and I know from other sources that 70-75mph is =normal= for a cheetah.

 

...and NOTHING canon suggests Steve Rogers could match a cheetah in these regards.

 

You have misinterpreted what I wrote, so let me clarify.

 

I'm not saying cheetah's can't run over 60mph. They can.

 

But no cheetah can sustain top speed for an extended period of time (one minute or more). I'm saying they wouldn't survive the heat and strain that doing so would put on their bodies.

 

These are animals supremely adapted for bursts of intense speed. Steve Rogers is just a peak human. Running 60mph is beyond what a peak human can do. We're just not built for it.

 

We're probably not going to break 40 MPH without becoming cyborgs or having somone with some almost freakish combination of long legs, low body weight and extremely specialized muscles. You might get there with extensive gene therapy, but by the time you do you have gone beyond what I would consider a reasonable definition of peak human and are well into the realm of superhuman.

 

I mean, we can theoretically give people low level regeneration, superior low light vision and at least double (if not quadruple) human strength with gene therapy right now... but are we sure we want to call somone that can see in the dark, regrow limbs and organs and conceivably bench press 2 tons peak human?

 

So someone at Marvel screwed up. They are allowed to make mistakes too.

 

Sure... or we can accept that Captain America actually does have several low level super powers considering what he's been shown to do down through the years.

 

Alternately, we can ignore some of those feats in order to maintain a reasonable peak human concept.

 

Not according to the sports docs and biologists I've talked to. The human frame (skeleton and joints) =is= capable of achieving and surviving these levels of performance.

 

But we have not yet evolved the muscle and energy efficiency to pull it off.

 

There's not much difference between human bone/sinew and something like a cheetah or a horse. It's not like they are made of considerably more durable stuff. Their tendons have similar tensile strength as ours, but they are built differently. They are significantly more specialized. Their muscles put out more power, their limb index is different, they use energy differently, their hearts are larger, their cardiovascular systems more refined... the list goes on and on.

 

We're not going to just evolve the ability to do all that...

 

..and I thought it was some nonstandard form of iron called "elemental iron" or somesuch?

 

You got me there. I know the good doctor was never able to figure out what the exact catalyst for the unique alloy was, but I have no idea if they ever gave it a name.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Bloodstone,

 

(warning! science geek stuff ahead)

The average human has muscles that turn ~20-33% of the energy used into useful work. The rest is turned into =heat=.

 

Elite athletes have been found with muscle tissue that is 50% efficient. The estimate is that the limit is ~66% efficiency.

 

Such increases in efficiency are a "double whammy" for improving athletic performance.

1= more work gets done with the limited supply of energy in the body. D'uh.

2= less obvious, =the amount of overheating the body has to deal with decreases=.

 

If Steve Rogers were ITRW, he'd very likely be someone where =all= of his muscles worked at or very close to the postulated 66% efficiency limit.

 

Now figure out how much work an average 20% efficient human of normal muscle mass can do compared to a guy with 3-4x as much muscle which is 66% efficient to boot.

 

Similar extreme improvements have also been found in some of the bone and nerve tissue of some elite athletes.

 

Now picture a guy whose whole body has all of these improvements in a body of perfect proportions.

=That's= Steve Rogers.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Normal Human

 

Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, since that last seems to reinforce Cap's superhuman status...

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'd have to say that in a lot of ways the super soldier serum allowed him to reach the upper limit of human potential.

 

Potential. Not what humans are currently capable of.

[torchwolf]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'd have to say that in a lot of ways the super soldier serum allowed him to reach the upper limit of human potential.

 

Potential. Not what humans are currently capable of.

 

Well put.

 

Life Support - Safe Environment: Extreme Cold + Simulate Death (Trigger: When temperature drops below human survivability)

as well as possibly Life Support - Longevity

and a few other tidbits of abilities that could be considered "enhanced human" abilities.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'd have to say that in a lot of ways the super soldier serum allowed him to reach the upper limit of human potential.

 

Potential. Not what humans are currently capable of.

Yep. That's all that I've been saying.

 

But he =is= still intrinsically human. Unlike the FF or the X-Men or The Hulk or Spiderman or etc. Let alone demigods like The Silver Surfer or gods like Thor.

 

We =will= evolve at some point to do what Cap can do. Without a major change to our genome, we are =never= evolving to do what those other examples can do.

 

...and that's the fundamental difference.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

Really? An argument can be made that, because of the changes made to him by the super soldier serum, any children that he fathers could be mutants.

 

Your arguments don't seem to be stating that my comment was what you meant. Otherwise there wouldn't have been as many comments negating yours.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Really? An argument can be made that' date=' because of the changes made to him by the super soldier serum, any children that he fathers [i']could[/i] be mutants.

 

Your arguments don't seem to be stating that my comment was what you meant. Otherwise there wouldn't have been as many comments negating yours.

1= We do not know if the Super Soldier Serum + the Vita-Rays (People keep forgetting about these. They were at least as important as the SSS.) which caused Steve to grow his new body changed his DNA or his gamete producing body parts.

 

Since the SSS stays in Steve's body and is constantly being renewed, Steve will always have SSS in his endocrine system, bloodstream, even his bone marrow, making sure that every cell produced for those functions is to Super Soldier standards.

(Without the constant renewing supply of SSS in his body, Steve would have frozen to death instead of going into suspended animation in 1945.)

 

But we have no idea what the SSS + vita-rays did to his DNA, testes, or sperm. His children could be like him before Project Rebirth. He could be =sterile= for all we know (Chemo and Radiation therapy are both known to have causing sterility as a risk factor.)

 

IMHO, given the number of women he's been with over the years, and the lack of children from those multiple unions, my bet is that Steve Rogers was made sterile by Project Rebirth.

 

2= Project Rebirth did not change what a human being could =do=. It simply made a human being perform at the absolute theoretical peak of human performance. Steve's bones are still bone. His muscles are still muscle. With the exception of the regenerating supply of SSS in his body, every molecule and cell in his body is still recognizably human if examined.

(This point has been made multiple times over the years in the primary source material.)

 

This is not so of an alien, a mutant, The Hulk, Spiderman, The FF, etc.

All of these examples have been shown to have non baseline human DNA.