Normal Human

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

A character who has no characteristics above the NCM maximum is not limited by the NCM disadvantage.

False.

 

If we have two characters with identical stat blocks, with no stat over the NCM, show me how they will play differently, by the book rules, because one takes NCM and the other does not.

This debate over NCM keeps ignoring the very germane fact that you have to GM the SFX properly of any chosen effect if you are doing your job properly as a HERO GM.

 

That is very much the HERO RAW.

 

EB whose SFX are fire are GMed differently from those whose FX are water. Or ice. Or collections of rocks. Or sand. Or ...

 

So if your chosen effect is "I'm a being of normal flesh and blood commonly in situations where the environment is defined and dominated by the presence of supers.", then -all- the consequences of that SFX have to be properly GMed.

 

Twin Towers collapse on super while they are in the basement. They are very likely STUNNED, KO'd, etc.

Twin Towers collapse on Bruce or Steve while they are in the basement.

Unless Bruce or Steve gets very lucky (and the building doesn't actually collapse -on- him), he is DEAD.

 

Super enters burning building to save trapped civilians. Not much in the way of after effects for the super.

 

Steve Rogers enters burning building to save trapped civilians. The next day Steve has smoke inhalation just like the other (NYFD NPC) fire fighter at the breakfast table.

(Actual example from Capt America title just before Bernie Rosenthal figures out his Secret ID).

 

These issues have -nothing- to do with the characters stats, skills, or powers; and -everything- to do with the player's choice to apply the NCM SFX to their character.

They pay for the game -mechanic- bonus in game -play- by my GMing their chosen SFX properly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

None of those actually cover what NCM does.

 

A building only kills non-super Character if they don't have appropriate defenses to cover it. Just like a super character only lives if they have appropriate defenses to cover it.

[ideasmith]

Re: Normal Human

 

Sounds like a problem with your write ups to me. Just face it' date=' such sweeping statements do not stand up to all campaigns and there are campaigns like Ki-rin's and mine where it works just fine and is a useful tool.[/quote']

 

If you have a write-up of Batman that does not lose points taking NCM and can do what Batman does in superhero teams, let's see it.

 

Until I see such a write-up, I will assume that forcing Batman types to take NCM penalizes an genre-appropriate character concept.

 

If I feel the need to identify normal humans with a game mechanic, I will pick a mechanic that does not cause this problem.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

So what is the disadvantage? In tangible game terms' date=' it is the extra cost paid for the characteristics over the NCM limit. If you have none, the disadvantage should be worth nothing. If you have a 60 STR, you should get 40 points for NCM, since that's the extra points you spent. Just like the Elephant who Cannot Leap gets 9 points for that disadvantage, because 9 points was the value of his 9" of STR derived leaping.[/quote']

 

As I said earlier

 

This only holds water if points spent on characteristics provide advantage similar to points spent not on characteristics. In 5th points spent on characteristics provided advantage far superior to points spent not on characteristics so restricting the points spent on characteristics was an actual disadvantage. In 6th' date=' characteristics are more balanced to other point spends making it less clear if there is an additional advantage to purchasing characteristics.[/quote']

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

I see' date=' and have argued for, the merit of NCM as a Disadvantage. I just don't think it's really the best model to use and once the 6E model was presented have decided that is the prefered way of handling it.[/quote']

 

With the characteristic cost changes in 6th, I would wholeheartedly agree that the 6th model is superior.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

None of those actually cover what NCM does.

Damn straight it covers the SFX of what NCM means compared to being a super.

 

A building only kills non-super Character if they don't have appropriate defenses to cover it. Just like a super character only lives if they have appropriate defenses to cover it.

A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.

 

A being that can survive having tons of building collapse directly on his body is by definition not human unless you can show me a RW counter example of exactly that.

 

Normal humans can get lucky and survive because the Twin Towers collapsed -around- them rather than -on- them.

But if a skyscraper falls directly on the body of a being defined as being of normal flesh and blood, they are DEAD. Period.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Normal Human

 

A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.

 

A being that can survive having tons of building collapse directly on his body is by definition not human unless you can show me a RW counter

Power Armor?

 

I've seen people try to use NCM for PA characters.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

If you have a write-up of Batman that does not lose points taking NCM and can do what Batman does in superhero teams, let's see it.

 

Until I see such a write-up, I will assume that forcing Batman types to take NCM penalizes an genre-appropriate character concept.

 

If I feel the need to identify normal humans with a game mechanic, I will pick a mechanic that does not cause this problem.

This is easy.

 

Use whatever stats represent peak human genetics in your world (if they are not 20's, then you will need to redefine NCM to that maximum. I use 25 in my game worlds).

 

Then throw in a few Heroic Talents.

 

Then buy mondo amounts of Skills and MA.

 

Toss a few General Levels in for icing.

 

...and you get the Batman that even Supes does not want to F with.

(Because, as has been demo'd many times in the canonical material, Bruce -can- and -will- defeat Clark if allowed to dictate the circumstances of the ecounter and is given enough time to prepare.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

Yep, we're done here. I can't tell you how happy I am that I'm nowhere near your gaming table.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Power Armor?

 

I've seen people try to use NCM for PA characters.

That's fine.

 

1= said character is not always in their PA.

 

2= even when they are in their PA, that's still a "human of ordinary flesh and blood" inside that armor. They PA may give them all sorts of abilities. It -certainly- will greatly increase their survivability under many circumstances.

But the person inside is still essentially "a soft squishy in a hard shell".

 

Knights got bruises and shattered joints or limbs by some blows that did not destroy their armor.

 

Cops may survive getting shot because they are wearing armor. But they often get -hurt- even if the armor stops the bullet.

 

A super using PA should not have to deal with these SFX issues because they have not chosen to get points for using this SFX.

A NCM hero using PA should.

[Peregrine]

Re: Normal Human

 

Yep' date=' we're done here. I can't tell you how happy I am that I'm nowhere near your gaming table.[/quote']

 

I'll see you, and raise:

 

I'm happy that I don't have to worry about him coming anywhere near my gaming table; he isn't suitable to GM for me.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Normal Human

 

That's fine.

 

1= said character is not always in their PA.

 

2= even when they are in their PA, that's still a "human of ordinary flesh and blood" inside that armor. They PA may give them all sorts of abilities. It -certainly- will greatly increase their survivability under many circumstances.

But the person inside is still essentially "a soft squishy in a hard shell".

 

Knights got bruises and shattered joints or limbs by some blows that did not destroy their armor.

 

Cops may survive getting shot because they are wearing armor. But they often get -hurt- even if the armor stops the bullet.

 

A super using PA should not have to deal with these SFX issues because they have not chosen to get points for using this SFX.

A NCM hero using PA should.

In game terms, if the Armor (Power Armor, or Knight Armor, it doesn't matter) stops all the damage, then the person doesn't take damage, period. If you allow a character to take NCM on their power armor character, then drop a building on them, and declare that, despite their massive defenses (bought through the PA) the recieve broken bones and are half dead anyway, because they have NCM, your not going to have a happy player.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Yep' date=' we're done here. I can't tell you how happy I am that I'm nowhere near your gaming table.[/quote']

*shrug* you can't please all the people all the time.

 

I suspect from your posts that you would have far more fun than you presently think

 

The only folks who need to avoid my games like the plague are the Rules Rapists and extreme Power Gamers.

I would make their lives miserable, and they'd have no fun.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Normal Human

 

*shrug* you can't please all the people all the time.

 

I suspect from your posts that you would have far more fun than you presently think

 

The only folks who need to avoid my games like the plague are the Rules Rapists and extreme Power Gamers.

I would make their lives miserable, and they'd have no fun.

I am neither of those things, but I couldn't play in your game. Ruling things willie-nillie based on SFX at the cost of ignoring the mechanics? I couldn't handle that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

Damn straight it covers the SFX of what NCM means compared to being a super.

 

 

A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.

 

*shrug* you can't please all the people all the time.

 

I suspect from your posts that you would have far more fun than you presently think

 

The only folks who need to avoid my games like the plague are the Rules Rapists and extreme Power Gamers.

I would make their lives miserable, and they'd have no fun.

 

See the first quoted statement?

 

that is by far the single worst thing I have ever seen anyone say ever.

And it's a flat out False Statement. I could come up with a dozen "Not A Super powered being" SFX to counter it.

 

And the only way I can see you making "power gamers" or "rules rapists" or even a "mild rules lawyer" life miserable is your blatant disregard for the rules.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

In game terms' date=' if the Armor (Power Armor, or Knight Armor, it doesn't matter) stops [i']all[/i] the damage, then the person doesn't take damage, period. If you allow a character to take NCM on their power armor character, then drop a building on them, and declare that, despite their massive defenses (bought through the PA) the recieve broken bones and are half dead anyway, because they have NCM, your not going to have a happy player.

Absolutely. But then the player has paid CP, and used the appropriate SFX, to properly deal with the situation.

 

A guy in PA, even a "normal" guy, is not standing around in nothing but tights (or even chail mail in the case of Capt America) when the building falls on him.

 

Iron Man most definitely has been undamaged by having buildings fall him. Or having thrown tanks pile driver him into the earth dozens of feet. Or being hit point blank with tank rounds.

 

Does anyone really want to claim Tony Stark would survive any of these sort of events without his armor on?

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

I am neither of those things' date=' but I couldn't play in your game. Ruling things willie-nillie based on SFX at the cost of ignoring the mechanics? I couldn't handle that.[/quote']

Nothing willie-nillie about it.

 

If it isn't logically consistent for a given SFX to result in a given outcome, things are made to fit the SFX.

 

That's been HERO canon since the days of MacDonald & Peterson.

(I am in fact presently holding a June 1988 printing of _Champions_ and a copy of _Fantasy Hero_ that old because of this discussion.)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Normal Human

 

Nothing willie-nillie about it.

 

If it isn't logically consistent for a given SFX to result in a given outcome, things are made to fit the SFX.

 

That's been HERO canon since the days of MacDonald & Peterson.

(I am in fact presently holding a June 1988 printing of _Champions_ and a copy of _Fantasy Hero_ that old because of this discussion.)

On the other thread you said you would allow an NND attack without the Does Body Advantage to do Body if enough damage was done (which makes no sense, it doesn't do body, except when it does) based soley on SFX. I think SFX are important, and will make rulings based on SFX, but at the cost of completely ignoring Mechanics and giving one player an advantage of the others because of the SFX he chose? No, no way, nadda.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Normal Human

 

Nothing willie-nillie about it.

 

If it isn't logically consistent for a given SFX to result in a given outcome, things are made to fit the SFX.

This is just wrong. You should build the SFX you want with the mechanics available not randomly reward some SFX and gimp others.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

(or even chail mail in the case of Capt America)

Scale mail

 

This is just wrong. You should build the SFX you want with the mechanics available not randomly reward some SFX and gimp others.

Actually, you build the power you want to fit the concept of the character and then slap the SFX on it after...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Normal Human

 

Actually, you build the power you want to fit the concept of the character and then slap the SFX on it after...

Whatever, you get my point, even if my wording was poor. SFX are important, but do not trump Mechanics, at least not to the point of altering them, for good or ill, for free.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

This debate over NCM keeps ignoring the very germane fact that you have to GM the SFX properly of any chosen effect if you are doing your job properly as a HERO GM.

 

That is very much the HERO RAW.

 

As is Reason from Effect. If the SFX you have selected should have certain benefits and drawbacks, you need to purchase the mechanical abilities, advantages and limitations which represent these. You don't get to buy a 12d6 EB - Fire, and get a firebolt that, on hitting its target, keeps burning for added damage until someone puts it out. If you want that, you buy advantages to create a fire that continues to cause damage.

 

So if your chosen effect is "I'm a being of normal flesh and blood commonly in situations where the environment is defined and dominated by the presence of supers.", then -all- the consequences of that SFX have to be properly GMed.

 

Twin Towers collapse on super while they are in the basement. They are very likely STUNNED, KO'd, etc.

 

Twin Towers collapse on Bruce or Steve while they are in the basement.

Unless Bruce or Steve gets very lucky (and the building doesn't actually collapse -on- him), he is DEAD.

 

This depends on their physical stats. The character can, within NCM, have an armored carapace, regeneration with resurrection, an impenetrable force barrier, or even enough raw PD to survive (he has to pay double for it if it has no limitations - nothing prevents him HAVING it).

 

Meanwhile, Genius Guy (75 INT, 75 EGO and an array of mental powers) is dead, because he does not have sufficient defenses to withstand being crushed, despite being a Superhuman.

 

Super enters burning building to save trapped civilians. Not much in the way of after effects for the super.

 

Steve Rogers enters burning building to save trapped civilians. The next day Steve has smoke inhalation just like the other (NYFD NPC) fire fighter at the breakfast table.

(Actual example from Capt America title just before Bernie Rosenthal figures out his Secret ID).

 

I've read an awful lot of Cap, Daredevil, Batman, Green Arrow, etc. where the characters enter similar situations and suffer from no aftereffects. In my games, your background does not determine whether you suffer the ill effects of smoke inhalation - your need to breathe does. NCM does not restrict a character from taking Life Support - need not breathe. It does not even increase the cost.

 

These issues have -nothing- to do with the characters stats, skills, or powers; and -everything- to do with the player's choice to apply the NCM SFX to their character.

They pay for the game -mechanic- bonus in game -play- by my GMing their chosen SFX properly.

 

These issues have nothing to do with being a "normal human" and everything to do with how the character, normal human or superhuman, spent his points.

 

None of those actually cover what NCM does.

 

A building only kills non-super Character if they don't have appropriate defenses to cover it. Just like a super character only lives if they have appropriate defenses to cover it.

 

Much more concise than my discussion above, but the same premise.

 

Damn straight it covers the SFX of what NCM means compared to being a super.

 

A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.

 

Sure he can. He can have technology. He can have magic. He can have an armored carapace, an impenetrable force wall, desolidification, damage reduction, damage negation, armor, etc. etc. etc. He can even have 100 PD - he just pays more for it.

 

Actually, the real issue is that we are not speaking the same language. I agree that a non-super character lacks the defenses to withstand a skyscraper falling on him. But Normal Characteristic Maximum does not make a character "non-super", nor does lacking the disadvantage make him Super. He is, or is not, "Super" due to the manner in which he spent his points.

 

Absolutely. But then the player has paid CP, and used the appropriate SFX, to properly deal with the situation.

 

A guy in PA, even a "normal" guy, is not standing around in nothing but tights (or even chail mail in the case of Capt America) when the building falls on him.

 

Genius Guy is, and he's Super. And dead after the building falls on him.

 

Does anyone really want to claim Tony Stark would survive any of these sort of events without his armor on?

 

Nope. Neither will Genius Guy. Or the Flash, unless he vibrates free. Or Aquaman. Characters with sufficient defenses will. Characters with insufficient defenses won't. Their survival has nothing to do with whether they took NCM for 20 points. NOTHING.

 

If it isn't logically consistent for a given SFX to result in a given outcome, things are made to fit the SFX.

 

That's been HERO canon since the days of MacDonald & Peterson.

(I am in fact presently holding a June 1988 printing of _Champions_ and a copy of _Fantasy Hero_ that old because of this discussion.)

 

My enhanced strength results from the SFX of being a peak human in all respects. Does that mean I also have enhanced DEX for free, or does the fact I am a peak human in all respects mean I should buy enhanced DEX? If you check those books, I expect you will find (because I did when I read them back when they came out) that SFX provide minor advantages and limitations, not entirely new mechanics that were not paid for.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

If you have a write-up of Batman that does not lose points taking NCM and can do what Batman does in superhero teams, let's see it.

 

Until I see such a write-up, I will assume that forcing Batman types to take NCM penalizes an genre-appropriate character concept.

 

If I feel the need to identify normal humans with a game mechanic, I will pick a mechanic that does not cause this problem.

 

 

I don't have a Batman but I have other characters that do just fine.. I don't see why you need to see a write up to know you can make these characters without going going over the NCM and "losing points" If fact as long as you don't go over the amount gained by the disadvantage I don't see how you're losing points. skill levels etc can handle just about you need for performance. note I feel champions universe does suffer from characteristic inflation so that may be your disconnect.

 

I have never understood this complaint. If you take NCM and stay within NCM or under the amount you gain from it you don't lose points. if your game is such that normal humans need to go higher then don't use it.

 

I really don't understand this losing points unless (a) you abandon internal logic and normal humans can go crazty with above 20 stats or ( the character is about as normal a human as Captain America and shpulddn't take it.

 

I would the arguement would be its free points and cheating people out of points.

 

Remember whatt assupttions do. I 'm really ttired of everyone assuming something can't work. I feel no need to go through the trouble to copy one of my NCM characters from his little index card to the computor to prove something that should be obvious with a little ,mental flexibilty. I never said it would work in your campaign but it does in mine.

 

I'm sorry this is just too annoying I'm going to bow out of this thread before I say something I really regret.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

Whatever' date=' you get my point, even if my wording was poor. SFX are important, but do not trump Mechanics, at least not to the point of altering them, for good or ill, for free.[/quote']Actually, I might find reason to disagree with this, as there have been references printed explaining how different SFX interact with one-another.

[ideasmith]

Re: Normal Human

 

This is easy.

 

Use whatever stats represent peak human genetics in your world (if they are not 20's, then you will need to redefine NCM to that maximum. I use 25 in my game worlds).

 

Then throw in a few Heroic Talents.

 

Then buy mondo amounts of Skills and MA.

 

Toss a few General Levels in for icing.

 

...and you get the Batman that even Supes does not want to F with.

(Because, as has been demo'd many times in the canonical material, Bruce -can- and -will- defeat Clark if allowed to dictate the circumstances of the ecounter and is given enough time to prepare.)

 

If one is willing to house-rule the Maxima upwards to fit the character, one can give Superman NCM. After all, NCM has not effect on what Powers you can have (5ER pages 329-330).