Normal Human

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

What I wanted was something like "mere mortal" which would be much more encompassing ( probably something Lucius would approve of from my take) . You can simulate it with physical limitations though if you really want to but it would have been nice to actually have an official option.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

I never said that, for one thing.

 

I've never been particularly for or against NCM as a Disadvantage. I like the new model better, but that's because I think it's more useful.

 

You are correct sir, and I apologize. What was your intent for saying the advantage was unique?

[Peregrine]

Re: Normal Human

 

If there is some kind of standard “normal in a super world” Complication in the New Dispensation, I missed it, but I really hope there is and wish there were if there's not.

 

There isn't, and I for one am glad of it, because what that is and what effect that would have on both story and mechanics is too setting dependent. Further, the official CU setting explicitly does not have any such explicit dividing line (except for the dividing line between Legendary and Superhuman characteristics, and it is clear that a superhuman does not have to have any characteristics in the Superhuman range, while a non-superhuman can have characteristics in the Legendary range), and that is the default setting (though certainly not the exclusive setting - homebrews are as viable as they have ever been) for Superheroic campaigns.

 

Further reasons for the absence of any such Complication starts to get into design philosophy about what Complications are and are not, and why. I would recommend reading 6E1-414 and following (Chapter 9 - Complications) to get a clear understanding on what Complications are in 6e and how Complications differ from Disadvantages in 5eR and previous, because there is a very real difference, despite the very real similarities. One key part: Complications have a story impact; their frequency is set by "frequency of appearance in the story", not "frequency of the character's experience of the Complication in their life 24/7" (6E1-416; see especially the Frequency of Complication table)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

You are correct sir' date=' and I apologize. What was your intent for saying the advantage was unique?[/quote']

 

It's the only Disadvantage that forces a different Mechanical Standard on the Character by default. And, naturally, I wasn't totally on the mark (see below).

 

Sure, you're right you can model a Physical Limitation to do the same thing, but NCM is a System Level Sanction on such a thing.

 

Age (the other Disadvantage that does the same thing) and NCM both alter how a Character can spend points. More to the point (no pun intended) they are the only System Approved ways to change the Costs of Characteristics from the default setting for Single Character Only. Which is a significant piont.

 

Ki-Rin has found other uses for NCM to enforce the idea - but from a Strict Mechanical Point Only, all NCM does is change costs of things.

 

And it changes costs of things in a way that you probably a) weren't going to purchase anyway (making it a Disadvantage that doesn't Disadvantage) or Only purchase such a limited for of that the extra points are less than the Disadvantage is worth.

 

It is entirely possible to enforce Ki-Rin's model without NCM at all - I call it Speciall Effect Enforcement. If your overall SFX is "Normal Guy" then you don't ever get "Superheroic Aspects" naturally. Just like if your overall SFX is Fire Projection I'm going to look really displeased when you try and take Summon Blizzard.... That's just SFX enforcement.

 

Which is why I don't buy Ki-Rin's argument for NCM as a Disadvantage in any way.

[Peregrine]

Re: Normal Human

 

NCM was the standard RAW way to differentiate heroic characters from super heroic ones.

 

This was true in =4e=. See HSR p. 122.

This =was not= true in 5e. See HS5eR p. 32 and 329, neither of which mentions NCM as in any way indicating a non-super in a Superheroic setting.

 

If you are playing 4e, it is RAW. If you are playing 5e, it is not, but has been grandfathered or houseruled in.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'm glad you're happy but shutting out options in a toolkit sees a bad plan to me. I also find it fascinating in the difference you perceive in your statement. I ALWAYS felt what you feel the difference is about story related was true of disadvantages. I really don't see how it could have been interpreted the other way. It was always about the interaction with the story and screen time. So that difference is no difference to me.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

This was true in =4e=. See HSR p. 122.

This =was not= true in 5e. See HS5eR p. 32 and 329, neither of which mentions NCM as in any way indicating a non-super in a Superheroic setting.

 

If you are playing 4e, it is RAW. If you are playing 5e, it is not, but has been grandfathered or houseruled in.

 

 

Right up there IMO ,with 5th edition damage shield.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

It seems to me, that a better way to use NCM in a Superheroic Setting would have been Physical Limitation: Normal Man In A Super World.

 

And then the Player and GM define exactly what that means, wether traditional NCM with Limits and price doubling break points, or something else entirely.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

I'm glad you're happy but shutting out options in a toolkit sees a bad plan to me. I also find it fascinating in the difference you perceive in your statement. I ALWAYS felt what you feel the difference is about story related was true of disadvantages. I really don't see how it could have been interpreted the other way. It was always about the interaction with the story and screen time. So that difference is no difference to me.

 

To whose comment was this directed at?

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

And it changes costs of things in a way that you probably a) weren't going to purchase anyway (making it a Disadvantage that doesn't Disadvantage) or Only purchase such a limited for of that the extra points are less than the Disadvantage is worth.

 

A similar argument could be used to remove Psychological Limits from the system.

 

"I'm going to play my character as having a strong respect for life so he won't kill people, I can take Psych Limit: Code Against Killing"

"No, you were going to play it that way anyway so it's not really a disadvantage"

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

The difference is something like a PsychLim dictates what you won't do as much as what you will do. But it doesn't affect the Mechanics of your character in any way, it's purely Roleplaying.

 

NCM affects the Mechanics directly by changing costs.

 

The first is a Roleplaying aspect; the second is a Metagame Alteration.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

NCM Limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do. Some attacks and types of environmental stresses you can =never= adapt to, train for, or withstand.

 

To do so would require the ability to develop stats far beyond what HS Sapiens genetic code allows for.

 

So why can't I have a similar Disadvantage for other things I cannot purchase? My character can never become immune to disease. He can't adapt to it, train for it or withstand it. Human beings can't fly, read minds, project beams of force from their eyes or develop an armored carapace. All of those seem far more superhuman to me than developing a 21 STR or a 9 PD, but none of them are affected by NCM.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

This only holds water if points spent on characteristics provide advantage similar to points spent not on characteristics. In 5th points spent on characteristics provided advantage far superior to points spent not on characteristics so restricting the points spent on characteristics was an actual disadvantage. In 6th' date=' characteristics are more balanced to other point spends making it less clear if there is an additional advantage to purchasing characteristics.[/quote']

 

So a 20 point flat disad makes up for all the variances in the value of characteristics versus other spending? Whether I would have otherwise had a 21 DEX and 5 SPD, or a 75 STR, 40 CON, 35 DEX and 8 SPD? In my experience, NCM gets taken after the player looks at the character he has designed, and realizes he could easily remain within the NCM limits without sacrificing the character's concept.

 

As well, a Characteristic with a Limitation (or other modifier) is a Power by the books, and NCM has no impact on the cost of powers. Defender is the classic example, but even STR that Costs END or enhanced abilities that only work if you don't cut your hair (a -0 limitation is still a modifier - Power instead of Characteristic) technically avoids the NCM limitations

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

So a 20 point flat disad makes up for all the variances in the value of characteristics versus other spending? Whether I would have otherwise had a 21 DEX and 5 SPD' date=' or a 75 STR, 40 CON, 35 DEX and 8 SPD? In my experience, NCM gets taken after the player looks at the character he has designed, and realizes he could easily remain within the NCM limits without sacrificing the character's concept.[/quote']

 

I don't know if a 20 point flat disad makes up for it - I do know that it is significantly disadvantageous - past that it becomes negotiation. As for your experience, it differs somewhat from mine.

 

As well' date=' a Characteristic with a Limitation (or other modifier) is a Power by the books, and NCM has no impact on the cost of powers. Defender is the classic example, but even STR that Costs END or enhanced abilities that only work if you don't cut your hair (a -0 limitation is still a modifier - Power instead of Characteristic) technically avoids the NCM limitations[/quote']

 

A phrase that I've seen knocking about that is particularly appropriate here. The System is not your Babysitter.

 

The rule allows for some reasonable builds but can be exploited; like Multiform or Duplication the GM needs to determine where the line is.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

A phrase that I've seen knocking about that is particularly appropriate here. The System is not your Babysitter.

 

The rule allows for some reasonable builds but can be exploited; like Multiform or Duplication the GM needs to determine where the line is.

 

Unlike Multiform or Duplication, I cannot think of a single character that could not be constructed in the system without NCM existing. Without it, I simply buy the Normal Characteristic stats my character would have, and spend my points in order areas. Exactly the same character, except I need another 20 points of disadvantages that actually mean something in play.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

The difference is something like a PsychLim dictates what you won't do as much as what you will do. But it doesn't affect the Mechanics of your character in any way, it's purely Roleplaying.

 

NCM affects the Mechanics directly by changing costs.

 

The first is a Roleplaying aspect; the second is a Metagame Alteration.

 

Well, there are mechanics for overcoming Psych Limits in play but more to the point though this then isn't a "Is this disadvantagous" but "Is this what I think Disads Should Be" issue.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Unlike Multiform or Duplication' date=' I cannot think of a single character that could not be constructed in the system without NCM existing. Without it, I simply buy the Normal Characteristic stats my character would have, and spend my points in order areas. Exactly the same character, except I need another 20 points of disadvantages that actually mean something in play.[/quote']

 

Not a question of can you build it, it's a question of are you disadvantaged by building it that way.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

Well' date=' there are mechanics for overcoming Psych Limits in play but more to the point though this then isn't a "Is this disadvantagous" but "Is this what I think Disads Should Be" issue.[/quote']

 

more explcitely then:

 

Psyc Lims do no alter how you spend points on a character.

NCM does.

 

That's altering a character in a completely different way. One only works once you get into play, the other works primarily before play ever starts - that makes it a MetaGame Disadvantage versus a Gameplay Disadvantage.

 

Here, let me use another example:

 

Disadvantage: Age 40+ - changes your Characteristic Block Maximums.

Social Limitation: Over 40. - will affect how people treat you in play, as "the old guy" but doesn't actually affect how you build your character.

 

Metagame vs Gameplay.

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

more explcitely then:

 

Psyc Lims do no alter how you spend points on a character.

NCM does.

 

That's altering a character in a completely different way. One only works once you get into play, the other works primarily before play ever starts - that makes it a MetaGame Disadvantage versus a Gameplay Disadvantage.

 

Here, let me use another example:

 

Disadvantage: Age 40+ - changes your Characteristic Block Maximums.

Social Limitation: Over 40. - will affect how people treat you in play, as "the old guy" but doesn't actually affect how you build your character.

 

Metagame vs Gameplay.

 

I would argue that Character Creation and Advancement is part of Gameplay, however, the real questions here are "Why is the distinction relevant?" and/or "How does that matter to the idea of being disadvantaged?"

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

To some it matters a great deal.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

So why can't I have a similar Disadvantage for other things I cannot purchase? My character can never become immune to disease. He can't adapt to it' date=' train for it or withstand it. Human beings can't fly, read minds, project beams of force from their eyes or develop an armored carapace. All of those seem far more superhuman to me than developing a 21 STR or a 9 PD, but none of them are affected by NCM.[/quote']

But how often do those limitations matter in actual campaign play?

A limitation that never matters in play is de facto not limiting and therefore

 

"A limitation that does not actually limit the character is not worth points."

 

The bedrock principle of the entire DisAd system.

 

If everyone else in the campaign, or even an overwhelmingly large majority of those around you can fly or , and you can't, AND IT MATTERS IN PLAY TERMS, then you have a Limitation and should get a bonus to make up for the PiTA you have set yourself up for.

 

If everyone around you can breathe water, but you can't, it doesn't matter much in a mostly land based campaign.

But if the setting is the sunken civilizations of Atlantis and Lemuria...

 

In a world where PCs might routinely be hit by attacks and AoE occurances that would almost always be fatal to normal humans, being a normal human is definitely a DisAd if your chosen profession has a high risk of you being in situations such things could occur.

 

Heros like Captain America and Batman have to approach superhero combat from a very difference POV than Superheros like Flash.

 

NCM means you are such a normal human. You have to worry about certain things in a way that supers, even supers with stats lower than yours, don't have to worry the same way about.

 

You certainly can be a normal human w/o taking the NCM DisAd. From a gameplay perspective, that means you don't want to the issues associated with being a normal in a super world to ever substantially limit you or put you at greater risk. (The difference between Batman in his titles vs Batman in the JLA. Or Cap in his titles vs Cap in the Avengers.)

[jtelson]

Re: Normal Human

 

To some it matters a great deal.

 

Sorry, Why rather than How does that matter to the idea of being disadvantaged?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

Just from my personal point of view, I'd rather a Disadvantage work in play, almost exclusively. I'm not a big fan of the idea of a Disadvantage changing what your Characteristics cost.

 

90% of the time, once play starts, that Disadvantage won't be very Disadvantageous. The player will either have bought Characteristics as a Power, or purchased some other aspects that make them a viable and playable member of the group. Bringing some form a useful skills to the table regardless of Characteristics Cost.

 

I'd personally prefer that everyone in any given specific game is using the same purchasing rules.

 

I see, and have argued for, the merit of NCM as a Disadvantage. I just don't think it's really the best model to use and once the 6E model was presented have decided that is the prefered way of handling it.

 

If you want to play a Normal Human in a Superheroic Campaign/World and want those consequences to come to bear, then the Player and GM need to work up what those actually are. Changing point costs seems arbitrary to me in the first place.

 

Doubly so once you realize that 20 is a suggested default, by the GM is well within his rights to change them (5ER p39). The GM may very well set NCM at 35, well above even what most Supers take in more than one Characteristic to begin with. Making an NCM Disadvantage even more worthless from a Mechanics Perspective.

 

Or the GM could set NCM to 10, which can have all kinds of dire consequences for your Character. . .

 

There are a number of better and different ways to handle Normal Human without using Normal Characteristic Maximum - which, FWIW, doesn't have to be attached to a "normal human" to be taken... you could very well take the Disadvantage and declare it SFX for some other reasons "Aliens from Barax can't go above the NCM...." or whatever.

 

If you're a Superhero, and a Superbeing, whose only ability to a series of Teleportation Powers, but it otherwise Joe Average they could take NCM. Heck, they could have all kinds of off beat superpowers and stil qualify for NCM.

 

Because note that Normal Charactertistic Maximum has no effect on WHAT you are, just what stuff costs. The Why of it is left to the Player. And there are no other stated consquences for taking NCM once play starts. Unlike almost all other Disadvantages in the system.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Just from my personal point of view, I'd rather a Disadvantage work in play, almost exclusively. I'm not a big fan of the idea of a Disadvantage changing what your Characteristics cost.

 

90% of the time, once play starts, that Disadvantage won't be very Disadvantageous. The player will either have bought Characteristics as a Power, or purchased some other aspects that make them a viable and playable member of the group. Bringing some form a useful skills to the table regardless of Characteristics Cost.

 

I'd personally prefer that everyone in any given specific game is using the same purchasing rules.

 

I see, and have argued for, the merit of NCM as a Disadvantage. I just don't think it's really the best model to use and once the 6E model was presented have decided that is the prefered way of handling it.

 

If you want to play a Normal Human in a Superheroic Campaign/World and want those consequences to come to bear, then the Player and GM need to work up what those actually are. Changing point costs seems arbitrary to me in the first place.

 

Doubly so once you realize that 20 is a suggested default, by the GM is well within his rights to change them (5ER p39). The GM may very well set NCM at 35, well above even what most Supers take in more than one Characteristic to begin with. Making an NCM Disadvantage even more worthless from a Mechanics Perspective.

 

Or the GM could set NCM to 10, which can have all kinds of dire consequences for your Character. . .

 

There are a number of better and different ways to handle Normal Human without using Normal Characteristic Maximum - which, FWIW, doesn't have to be attached to a "normal human" to be taken... you could very well take the Disadvantage and declare it SFX for some other reasons "Aliens from Barax can't go above the NCM...." or whatever.

 

If you're a Superhero, and a Superbeing, whose only ability to a series of Teleportation Powers, but it otherwise Joe Average they could take NCM. Heck, they could have all kinds of off beat superpowers and stil qualify for NCM.

 

Because note that Normal Charactertistic Maximum has no effect on WHAT you are, just what stuff costs. The Why of it is left to the Player. And there are no other stated consquences for taking NCM once play starts. Unlike almost all other Disadvantages in the system.

All of this is handled by making the consequences of the requested SFX be logically consistent during game play.

 

Characters that choose to be "normal" in a supers campaign are stating up front that they are more fragible in some ways compared to the average super in the campaign... ...and that they want it to matter to some degree in game play.

 

This is no different than buying a spell or superpower with certain SFX related Ads and Limits on it.

The game mechanic result is that you get to build certain things certain ways possibly cheaper than otherwise.

The game -play- result is that the consequences of your chosen SFX, -all- of them, are going to have an impact in game play.

 

A character with NCM effectively gets to buy more for their CP than one w/o.

That's the good.

The bad are the implications of the SFX chosen (you are a "normal" human of what we ITRW would recognize as ordinary flesh and blood.) on how high your stats can go and how fragible you are in some ways compared to the the average super during game play.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal Human

 

Not a question of can you build it' date=' it's a question of are you disadvantaged by building it that way.[/quote']

 

So what is the disadvantage? In tangible game terms, it is the extra cost paid for the characteristics over the NCM limit. If you have none, the disadvantage should be worth nothing. If you have a 60 STR, you should get 40 points for NCM, since that's the extra points you spent. Just like the Elephant who Cannot Leap gets 9 points for that disadvantage, because 9 points was the value of his 9" of STR derived leaping.

 

But how often do those limitations matter in actual campaign play?

A limitation that never matters in play is de facto not limiting and therefore

 

"A limitation that does not actually limit the character is not worth points."

 

And a character who has no characteristics above the NCM maximum is not limited by the NCM disadvantage.

 

If everyone else in the campaign' date=' or even an overwhelmingly large majority of those around you can fly or , and you can't, AND IT MATTERS IN PLAY TERMS, then you have a Limitation and should get a bonus to make up for the PiTA you have set yourself up for.[/quote']

 

If everyone in the game has 15+ rPD, and I have none, I have set myself up for a PiTA. Should I get a disadvantage for "can't buy rPD"? That seems even more restrictive than NCM, as I don't just pay double - I can't buy it at all.

 

Can I have 30 or 40 points for "NCM - can't buy above max at all"? How much more if I add "Even with power modifiers"?

 

Heros like Captain America and Batman have to approach superhero combat from a very difference POV than Superheros like Flash.

 

I can easily build Flash with his DEX and SPD limited to "Drained with his other Speed Powers" - as they should be. Now those characteristics are limited, so cost isn't doubled. He can buy defenses as a force field, and most of his abilities at reduced or nil END, so he doesn't need any other stat to exceed the NCM limit. Should I now be allowed to give him 20 points for NCM and call him a "normal human"?

 

NCM means you are such a normal human. You have to worry about certain things in a way that supers' date=' even supers with stats lower than yours, don't have to worry the same way about.[/quote']

 

Really? Like what? If we have two characters with identical stat blocks, with no stat over the NCM, show me how they will play differently, by the book rules, because one takes NCM and the other does not.