Normal Human

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

If one is willing to house-rule the Maxima upwards to fit the character' date=' one can give Superman NCM. After all, NCM has not effect on what Powers you can have (5ER pages 329-330).[/quote']

Only if he were still on Krypton...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Normal Human

 

If one is willing to house-rule the Maxima upwards to fit the character' date=' one can give Superman NCM. After all, NCM has not effect on what Powers you can have (5ER pages 329-330).[/quote']

 

Heck, a house rule is not even required. Just buy his STR and other Kryptonian based characteristics as Powers.

[ideasmith]

Re: Normal Human

 

I don't have a Batman but I have other characters that do just fine.. I don't see why you need to see a write up to know you can make these characters without going going over the NCM and "losing points" If fact as long as you don't go over the amount gained by the disadvantage I don't see how you're losing points. skill levels etc can handle just about you need for performance. note I feel champions universe does suffer from characteristic inflation so that may be your disconnect.

 

 

Every write-up of Batman I have seen – and I've seen a number of them while websurfing, so this is not specific to my gaming group – would have lost points from NCM.

 

I have never understood this complaint. If you take NCM and stay within NCM or under the amount you gain from it you don't lose points. if your game is such that normal humans need to go higher then don't use it.

 

I really don't understand this losing points unless (a) you abandon internal logic and normal humans can go crazty with above 20 stats or ( the character is about as normal a human as Captain America and shpulddn't take it.

 

According to the rulebook (5ER page 40-41), characteristics don't count as superheroic until 31+ for physical characteristics or 51+ for mental characteristics. Your 'internal logic' contradicts the rulebook. Yes, characteristics above 20 are for exceptional normal humans. Any normal human superhero is, almost by definition, exceptional.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

If one is willing to house-rule the Maxima upwards to fit the character' date=' one can give Superman NCM. After all, NCM has not effect on what Powers you can have (5ER pages 329-330).[/quote']

We are not talking about Powers. We are talking about stats.

 

Unless most PCs in your game world tend to have better stats than Kal El, Supes does not have the right to the NCM DisAd.

 

Bats and Cap get NCM because they are ordinary flash and bone who regularly face opponents with stats and physical characteristics impossible for the human body as we know it IRL to encompass.

 

I don't house rule NCM to fit characters. I house rule NCM to fit game worlds.

 

In a world where agents can and do sometimes have primary stats as high as 25 w/o being supers, NCM being based on a primary stat limit of 25 makes sense. (...and having NCM fit the game world has been canon since at least 4ed.)

 

Making NCM 1.25x higher allowed me to have more variability in what "normals", including agents, can do. That made it easier for me to keep agents at ~ -3 To Hit supers for game balance purposes.

[ideasmith]

Re: Normal Human

 

Only if he were still on Krypton...

 

If the GM is willing to house-rule the Maxima up to Superman's level, it doesn't matter whether Superman is on Krypton. (More GM's would adjust the Maxima that high if the campaign were set on Krypton, but that's beside the point.)

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Every write-up of Batman I have seen – and I've seen a number of them while websurfing' date=' so this is not specific to my gaming group – would have lost points from NCM.[/quote']

Pointers please.

 

I've got 2 standard homage builds for Bruce Wayne that follow published canon as closely as I could.

One for NCM of 20 worlds and one for NCM of 25 worlds.

 

In either he is expensive (500+ character points). In either, he is down right scary if played right.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

If the GM is willing to house-rule the Maxima up to Superman's level' date=' it doesn't matter whether Superman is on Krypton. (More GM's would adjust the Maxima that high if the campaign were set on Krypton, but that's beside the point.)[/quote']That GM would be a moron.

[ideasmith]

Re: Normal Human

 

We are not talking about Powers. We are talking about stats.

 

Unless most PCs in your game world tend to have better stats than Kal El, Supes does not have the right to the NCM DisAd.

 

Bats and Cap get NCM because they are ordinary flash and bone who regularly face opponents with stats and physical characteristics impossible for the human body as we know it IRL to encompass.

 

I don't house rule NCM to fit characters. I house rule NCM to fit game worlds.

 

In a world where agents can and do sometimes have primary stats as high as 25 w/o being supers, NCM being based on a primary stat limit of 25 makes sense. (...and having NCM fit the game world has been canon since at least 4ed.)

 

Making NCM 1.25x higher allowed me to have more variability in what "normals", including agents, can do. That made it easier for me to keep agents at ~ -3 to hit supers for game balance purposes.

 

Sound like you have also moved the top of the 'competent' category 1.25x higher. However, setting the Maxima at the top of the 'competent' category will penalize characters such as Batman, who is as agile as an Elite Martial Artist, about as tough as Rasputin, and about as smart as Sherlock Holmes, to use Benchmarks from page 41 of 5ER.

 

Having NCM fit the game world may have been canon in 4E, but I see no such rule in 5ER. Do you have a page reference?

[ideasmith]

Re: Normal Human

 

That GM would be a moron.

 

Probably true, but also beside the point.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal Human

 

 

 

According to the rulebook (5ER page 40-41), characteristics don't count as superheroic until 31+ for physical characteristics or 51+ for mental characteristics. Your 'internal logic' contradicts the rulebook. Yes, characteristics above 20 are for exceptional normal humans. Any normal human superhero is, almost by definition, exceptional.

 

I really really want to just bow out BUT just look at NCM double cost for anything over 20. You know maybe its for the best those crazy inflated stats need to be contradicted. You did bother to notice anything over 25 is legendary even then. Look at the frickin' STR chart and seriously tell me they need stats in that range. I can't beleive youcan't see any way but your own

 

 

Here's a decent NCM Batman in this thread

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67230

 

Now I'm done Ideasmith you're now on ignore so I won't reply back.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Sound like you have also moved the top of the 'competent' category 1.25x higher. However' date=' setting the Maxima at the top of the 'competent' category will penalize characters such as Batman, who is as agile as an Elite Martial Artist, about as tough as Rasputin, and about as smart as Sherlock Holmes, to use Benchmarks from page 41 of 5ER.[/quote']

Elite MA => DEX at NCM

Tough as Rasputin => CON and BODY at NCM

smart as Sherlock Holmes => real close to the NCM cap but not at it. Say 18 in a 20 NCM world and 23 in a 25 NCM world.

(Remember even Sherlock said that both his brother Mycroft and his arch-enemy Moriarty were smarter than he was.)

Also need very high Intuition and Deduction skills to simulate Bats mental talents.

 

Don't see how any of this penalizes Batman.

 

Having NCM fit the game world may have been canon in 4E, but I see no such rule in 5ER. Do you have a page reference?

Nope. I do not have 5ER.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Nope. I do not have 5ER.

 

Which may mean we're just talking past each other. I'm going by 5th or even 6th edition, and you're apparently still using 4th. I have recently learned that I actually don't remember 4th as well as I think I do.

 

I don't house rule NCM to fit characters. I house rule NCM to fit game worlds.

 

Which is fine, and of course it was already obvious that you were very heavily house ruling NCM.

 

The disconnect comes in when you treat your house rules as if they were THE rules.

As I have already pointed out, most people here have not played in your games and are not likely to.

 

This was true in =4e=. See HSR p. 122.

This =was not= true in 5e. See HS5eR p. 32 and 329, neither of which mentions NCM as in any way indicating a non-super in a Superheroic setting.

 

If you are playing 4e, it is RAW. If you are playing 5e, it is not, but has been grandfathered or houseruled in.

 

This wouldn't be the first time I've forgotten or overlooked something from that edition.

 

I don't suppose you can quote me the relevant passage? I think I still have that edition somewhere but I know if I go looking it would take me days to find it....

 

Lucius,

 

NCM was the standard RAW way to differentiate heroic characters from super heroic ones.

 

Changing the name of the DisAd to "merely Human" is "merely symantics".

 

I'm not talking about changing the name of a Disad. I'm talking about getting rid of a Disad that should not have existed – Normal Characteristic Maxima – and creating a Disad that should exist and doesn't (at least not in 5th and 6th editions) possibly to be called “Merely Human.”

 

If a player chooses to play a hero in a superhero campaign, they have chosen to put themselves at greater hazard in an already dangerous profession. That's a DisAd. NCM is merely the game mechanic we use to quantify that DisAd.

 

Yep, that would be a Disad. However, NCM is not “the game mechanic we use to quantify that Disad.” All NCM quantifies is a higher cost to certain Characteristics and Movement Powers.

 

Unless I am truly severely misremembering 4th edition, and in any case my statement holds true for 5th.

 

In this case, the effect that needs to be simulated is the DisAd that "normal" humans get seriously injured or die far more easily IRL than supers do in HERO supers campaigns.

They also have other physical and mental limitations that supers don't.

NCM is intended to model that.

 

If that was the intent, then it models it very, very, very poorly.

 

If the effect that needs to be simulated is the Disad that “normal” humans get seriously injured or die far more easily IRL than supers do in HERO supers campaigns, and have other physical and mental limitations that supers don't, wouldn't it make more sense to have a Disad that actually DOES model those things (for example, a Disad requiring a character to use Hit Location, Impairing, Disabling, and Bleeding rules, in a campaign where most player characters don't have to) than a Disad that changes the costs of Characteristics and certain Movement Powers above a certain point (and then only if said Characteristics and Powers aren't “bought as powers”) ??

 

 

A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.

 

A being that can survive having tons of building collapse directly on his body is by definition not human unless you can show me a RW counter example of exactly that.

 

Normal humans can get lucky and survive because the Twin Towers collapsed -around- them rather than -on- them.

But if a skyscraper falls directly on the body of a being defined as being of normal flesh and blood, they are DEAD. Period.

 

I can actually go along with this, I think. Certainly for the sake of the argument. I won't say that a “non super character” can survive a skyscraper falling on them.

 

If you want to talk about what real people, or normal people, however we define those terms, can and can't do or endure, that might be an interesting conversation. It will, however, be a conversation that has nothing whatsoever to do with Normal Characteristic Maxima as either a default rule or a Disadvantage. A character with Normal Characteristic Maxima can certainly survive the fall of a skyscraper if built to do so, and a character without Normal Characteristic Maxima can certainly die.

 

As to your challenge. Pick any situation

 

I asked you to pick one. I notice you can't seem to think of any. But okay, I'll play along.

 

where you need a primary stat of 40 or a figured stat based on primary stat that high, and you have a situation where a NCM human basically can't succeed (or in some cases, survive) unless they are extraordinarily lucky.

 

I didn't have to look very far at all. Are you sure you're not actually just trying to make this easy for me? These guys are already in this thread, page 3.

 

Note Brother Orchid especially, who can afford a STR of 40 with NCM despite being built on 50 pts plus 50 Disads. And here I thought you'd present me a situation only a superhero could handle....

 

The Florist Friars

 

Brother Rose Aka ”the Flying Monk”

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

15 STR 5 12- Lift 200.0kg; 3d6 [3]

20 DEX 30 13- OCV: 7/DCV: 7

13 CON 6 12-

9 BODY -2 11-

13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-

11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4

13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6

8 COM -1 11-

 

3/5 PD 0 Total: 3/5 PD (0/2 rPD)

3/4 ED 0 Total: 3/4 ED (0/1 rED)

6 SPD 50 Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12

6 REC 0

26 END 0

24 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 88

 

Movement:

Running: 3"/6"

Flight: 3"/12"

Leaping: 2"/4"

Swimming:1"/2"

 

Cost Powers END

9 The Flying Monk: Flight 3", x4 Noncombat, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (22 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Conditional Power Only if already ran 3" that phase; Can only go noncombat if ran noncombat that phase (-1/2), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel (Secret herbal potion) Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]

1 No thank you, I won't stand still and let you land a solid blow...: Armor (2 PD/1 ED) (5 Active Points); Limited Power Does not stop first pt of BOD of a Killing Attack (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Linked (The Flying Monk; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]

2 Healing Potion: Rapid Healing (5 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), 6 Boostable Charges (-1/2)

Notes: For some reason, Brother Rose's herbal potions seem to only be able to heal himself. Unfortunately, not everyone believes that....

He's Fast!

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All, Abort; FMove

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 3d6 +v/5, Target Falls

3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab 2 Limbs, 25 STR holding

 

Skills

3 Breakfall 13-

3 Acrobatics 13-

3 Bureaucratics 12-

3 Paramedics 12-

3 Trading 12-

0 Language: English (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)

2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)

3 Jack of All Trades

2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 12-

2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 12-

2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 12-

2 4) PS: Herbalist (3 Active Points) 12-

3 Scholar

2 1) KS: Canon Law (3 Active Points) 12-

2 2) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 12-

2 3) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 12-

2 4) KS: The Fastest Routes through the City (3 Active Points) 12-

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 62

Total Cost: 150

 

75+ Disadvantages

0 Normal Characteristic Maxima

5 Age: 40+

15 Dependent NPC: Brother Orchid 14- (Slightly Less Powerful)

15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)

5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor

5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

10 Rivalry: Professional (Mercury Man and the FTD; Rival is Significantly More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Unaware of Rivalry)

5 Hunted: People wanting the secret of his herbal preperations 8- (As Pow, Mildly Punish)

15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 150

 

Background/History: Brother Rose gained the nickname "The Flying Monk" when he started doing the deliveries for his monastic order's floral business.

 

Personality/Motivation: Brother Rose loves the Church and flowers, not necessarily in that order. He has an irrational resentment of Florist's Transworld Delivery because their symbol "Mercury Man" is a Pagan God.

 

Quote: May the Saint forgive me, but I hate Valentine's Day....how many more orders do I have to deliver?

 

Powers/Tactics: Unless he is cornered or must act to protect the innocent, Brother Rose responds to violence by running away.

 

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

 

Appearance: Brother Rose is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.

 

 

 

 

Brother Orchid aka “Brother Ox”

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

40 STR 50 17- Lift 6400.0kg; 8d6 [8]

11 DEX 3 11- OCV: 4/DCV: 4

13 CON 6 12-

10 BODY 0 11-

10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-

11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4

15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6

8 COM -1 11-

 

6 PD -2 Total: 6 PD (0 rPD)

4 ED 1 Total: 4 ED (0 rED)

3 SPD 9 Phases: 4, 8, 12

11 REC 0

26 END 0

37 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 67

 

Movement:

Running: 5"/10"

Leaping: 4"/8"

Swimming:2"/4"

 

Talents

6 Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED)

 

Skills

3 Hoist 11-

3 Jack of All Trades

2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 11-

2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 11-

2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 11-

3 Scholar

2 1) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 11-

2 2) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 11-

2 3) KS: Monastic Traditions (worldwide) (3 Active Points) 11-

2 +1 With Grab

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 29

Total Cost: 96

 

50+ Disadvantages

0 Normal Characteristic Maxima

15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)

5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor

5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

10 Psychological Limitation: Looks up to Brother Rose (Common, Moderate)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 50

 

Background/History: Brother Orchid is actually Brother Rose's nephew, and he looks up to his uncle as a wiser and more experienced monk. But he's also read about the monastic and ascetic traditions of other cultures, and is not above sometimes mischeivously annoying his uncle by comparing their own rules and rituals to those of Buddhists or Taoists.

 

Personality/Motivation: Curiosity about Eastern traditions aside, Brother Orchid takes his vow of Obedience very seriously. Whatever he's doing at any given moment, it's probably what someone told him to do.

 

Quote: No thank you brother, I can handle it. They can't weigh more than a couple hundred kilos.

 

Powers/Tactics: Brother Orchid is gentle by nature and if he must fight will usually try to grab and immobilize his opponent. He knows he is unusually strong and is unlikely to strike anyone with his full Strength unless frightened or severely provoked.

 

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

 

Appearance: Brother Orchid is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Florist Friars copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Normal Human

 

...

 

 

Nope. I do not have 5ER.

 

Is that true for 5E as well?

 

If so, you should be aware that the current board has been essentially funded by sales of 5th edition products (soon to be 6th going forward).

 

It has also been generally assumed (until the recent release of 6e) that any rules discussions are about 5th edition rules (5e or 5er) unless clearly stated by the poster.

 

Steve Long (part of the current ownership) wrote 5e and 6e. He did not write the BBB/4e rules.

[Peregrine]

Re: Normal Human

 

This was true in =4e=. See HSR p. 122.

This =was not= true in 5e. See HS5eR p. 32 and 329, neither of which mentions NCM as in any way indicating a non-super in a Superheroic setting.

 

If you are playing 4e, it is RAW. If you are playing 5e, it is not, but has been grandfathered or houseruled in.

 

This wouldn't be the first time I've forgotten or overlooked something from that edition.

 

I don't suppose you can quote me the relevant passage? I think I still have that edition somewhere but I know if I go looking it would take me days to find it....

 

Incoming....

NORMAL CHARACTERISTIC MAXIMA

This represents a character who is a “normal” in a world of superheroes or other super-powerful beings. This Disadvantage can only be purchased by characters in a campaign where there are normally no restriction on Characteristics (a superheroic campaign).

 

NORMAL CHARACTERISTIC MAXIMA

The two Characteristics Tables list “Maximum Values” for each characteristic. This restriction, known as Normal Characteristic Maxima, applies only to Heroic campaigns; usually it acts as a “default” for the campaign and does not count as a Disadvantage. Superheroic campaigns have no such limits (unless the GM imposes them, or they voluntarily choose them as a Disadvantage [see page 329]).

 

Normal Characteristic Maxima

Characters in campaigns that do not impose Normal Characteristic Maxima as a default can take Normal Characteristic Maxima as a Disadvantage for 20 Character Points. (The character can also take Age as a Disadvantage and get full points for it.) This requires them to abide by the restrictions of Normal Characteristic Maximum, including paying double for characteristics above the Maximum Value.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Thanks Peregrine. Nice overlook of the historical trend.

 

I had 5ER. Then there was a fire...

 

I'll be buying 6E as soon as I can.

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Incoming....

 

Hm...so it contains the statement

 

This represents a character who is a “normal” in a world of superheroes or other super-powerful beings.

 

without defining what "normal" means? And the actual mechanic is the same as in 5th edition?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

With a supernormal palindromedary and a normal super palindromedary

[Lucius]

Re: Normal Human

 

Actually, Ki-rin, I'll do you a favor.

 

I can think of one, and only one, situation that could not be survived by a character with Normal Characteristic Maxima, solely because they have Normal Characteristic Maxima. But it's very contrived.

 

 

Doctor Abnormal's Fiendish Deathtrap!: (Total: 370 Active Cost, 140 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; See Linked Detect; +1/4), No Normal Defense ([Defense is not having Normal Characteristic Maxima]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (25" Radius; +1), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; Insidious; +1), +5 Increased STUN Multiplier (First it knocks you out, then it quickly kills you; +1 1/4) (292 Active Points); IIF Immobile (The death dealing Abnormal Radiation Generator must be built in place and cannot be moved; -1 1/4), No Range (-1/2) (Real Cost: 106) plus Detect A Character with Normal Characteristic Maxima 14- (Radio Group) (6 Active Points); IIF Immobile (-1 1/4), Limited Power Sense used only as Trigger for Triggered Power (-1), Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 2) plus Endurance Reserve (120 END, 60 REC) (72 Active Points); IIF Immobile (-1 1/4) (Real Cost: 32)

 

 

Of course, I could just as easily design a deathtrap to which the defense is HAVING Normal Characteristic Maxima.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary ponders the odd fact that the above deathtrap would actually catch the Bayangi Normal Human robot.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

YES!!!

 

I just found out that I did NOT lose my entire collection of the more recent HERO stuff.

 

To give you an idea of the magnitude of the disaster that just reversed itself, I just recovered

 

HERO 5ER rule book

Most of the Ultimate series

DEMON servants of darkness

VIPER coil of the serpent

5ed DC

5ed Champions

5ed Ninja Hero

Conquers, Killers, and Crooks.

The Mystic World

5ed FH grimore

The Turakian Age

Arcane Adversaries

Galactic Champions

Vibora Bay

Hudson City the urban abyss

Millenium City

Gadgets and Gear

 

Something like a $grand worth of books.

 

I am PSYCHED!

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

Someone asked for a 5ER reference to a GM changing NCM for game balance purposes.

 

Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_

 

I am so pumped to be able to finally provide the references people ask for!

*bounce a bounce a bounce*

[Ki-rin]

Re: Normal Human

 

NCM is a Physical Limitation.

 

From p157 Champions 5E

"The chief virtue of Physical Limitations in a _Champions_ campaign is that you can place a character with this Disadvantage in situations where he has to cope with his disability- possibly for an increase in the drama of episode, possibly to the detriment of his self-image. With the right player, it can make some fascinating roleplaying and great stories."

 

That's how I GM NCM.

 

When Batman is dealing with a super powered adversary, he has to approach the problem in a different way than his fellow non NCM superheros do.

 

Ditto rescuing folks from disasters, dealing with collapsing buildings and avalanches, etc etc.

Bats and Cap are -human-.

Superbly trained, very tough, and utterly fearless humans, but still normal flesh and blood.

 

Jean Gray isn't (even w/o The Phoenix complications). The Flash isn't. Demi-gods like Supes and WW certainly are not.

 

...and if you don't want the fact that your character is human to affect game play, you don't have to take the physical disad.

(allowing for JLA Batman and Avengers Captain America).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Normal Human

 

Are you absolutely sure NCM is a Physical Limitation?

 

Because it's not.

 

It's listed under the Age Limitation. Which how everyone else is looking at it. It may be "physical" but it is not a Physical Limitation Mechanically. It doesn't behave like Physical Limitation does; it does not use Frequency/Severity. Therefore not making it that Mechanic.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Normal Human

 

I haven't got a dog in this fight (no 6e, and our group is using older stuff anyway), but I can't rep the palindromedary again for a while.....

 

I just wanted to say that this:

 

 

If the effect that needs to be simulated is the Disad that “normal” humans get seriously injured or die far more easily IRL than supers do in HERO supers campaigns, and have other physical and mental limitations that supers don't, wouldn't it make more sense to have a Disad that actually DOES model those things (for example, a Disad requiring a character to use Hit Location, Impairing, Disabling, and Bleeding rules, in a campaign where most player characters don't have to) than a Disad that changes the costs of Characteristics and certain Movement Powers above a certain point (and then only if said Characteristics and Powers aren't “bought as powers”) ??

 

 

Was extremely well-said.

 

I'll rep it as soon as I can.

[Greywind]

Re: Normal Human

 

NCM is a Physical Limitation.

 

From p157 Champions 5E

"The chief virtue of Physical Limitations in a _Champions_ campaign is that you can place a character with this Disadvantage in situations where he has to cope with his disability- possibly for an increase in the drama of episode, possibly to the detriment of his self-image. With the right player, it can make some fascinating roleplaying and great stories."

 

That's how I GM NCM.

 

When Batman is dealing with a super powered adversary, he has to approach the problem in a different way than his fellow non NCM superheros do.

 

Ditto rescuing folks from disasters, dealing with collapsing buildings and avalanches, etc etc.

Bats and Cap are -human-.

Superbly trained, very tough, and utterly fearless humans, but still normal flesh and blood.

 

Jean Gray isn't (even w/o The Phoenix complications). The Flash isn't. Demi-gods like Supes and WW certainly are not.

 

...and if you don't want the fact that your character is human to affect game play, you don't have to take the physical disad.

(allowing for JLA Batman and Avengers Captain America).

I find it interesting that you keep tossing Cap into this. Cap isn't a mainline human. He was altered by the Super Soldier serum. This indirectly makes him a "mutate." His strength, regardless of all the builds that put him at 20, was above a 25. His Dex would/should be pushing 30. I honestly would not ever consider Cap a possibility for NCM.

[ideasmith]

Re: Normal Human

 

I really really want to just bow out BUT just look at NCM double cost for anything over 20. You know maybe its for the best those crazy inflated stats need to be contradicted. You did bother to notice anything over 25 is legendary even then. Look at the frickin' STR chart and seriously tell me they need stats in that range. I can't beleive youcan't see any way but your own

 

 

Here's a decent NCM Batman in this thread

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67230

 

Now I'm done Ideasmith you're now on ignore so I won't reply back.

 

The link is to a 250 point "write-up" of one of the most experienced characters in the genre. I can take it for granted that Batman has a lot more than 250 points. This 'Batman' has neither a Batmobile nor a Batcave.

[ideasmith]

Re: Normal Human

 

Elite MA => DEX at NCM

Tough as Rasputin => CON and BODY at NCM

smart as Sherlock Holmes => real close to the NCM cap but not at it. Say 18 in a 20 NCM world and 23 in a 25 NCM world.

(Remember even Sherlock said that both his brother Mycroft and his arch-enemy Moriarty were smarter than he was.)

Also need very high Intuition and Deduction skills to simulate Bats mental talents.

 

Don't see how any of this penalizes Batman.

 

 

Nope. I do not have 5ER.

 

5ER page 41 gives "Elite martial artist" as the Benchmark for Legendary Dexterity.

5ER page 40 defines Legendary Dexterity as "21-30".

 

5ER page 41 gives "Rasputin" as a Benchmark for Legendary Constitution.

5ER page 40 defines Legendary Constitution as "21-30".

 

5ER page 41 gives "Sherlock Holmes" as the Benchmark for Legendary Intelligence.

5ER page 40 defines Legendary Intelligence as "21-50".

 

The description of "Legendary" (5ER page 41) includes the sentence "The upper limit of Legendary is the upper limit of human attainment."