ideasmith Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human Someone asked for a 5ER reference to a GM changing NCM for game balance purposes. Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_ I am so pumped to be able to finally provide the references people ask for! *bounce a bounce a bounce* Page 58 of 5ER has the descriptions for three skills (Demolitions, Disguise,and Electronics). It also has a picture of a guy with a "KICK ME!" sign on his back. It does not have any reference to Normal Characteristic Maxima. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human Page 58 of 5ER has the descriptions for three skills (Demolitions' date=' Disguise,and Electronics). It also has a picture of a guy with a "KICK ME!" sign on his back. It does not have any reference to Normal Characteristic Maxima.[/quote'] And I quote my previous post... Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_ Champions 5E. Not HERO 5ER. Upper LHS of page. Column on edge rather than in main body text. Page number is even in the alphabetical index at the end of the Champions 5E sourcebook. The only reference to NCM in 5ER is on p19-20 tacked inappropriately under Age. (Inappropriate because actually -reading- the section makes it clear that Age and NCM are independent DisAds. One can take both Age and NCM simultaneously. NCM is not a sub-catagory of Age RAW although NCM limits can be modified by Age.) EDIT: Ghost_Angel quoted below NCM is addressed in 5ER on p39 & p329-330. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human Page 58 of 5ER has the descriptions for three skills (Demolitions' date=' Disguise,and Electronics). It also has a picture of a guy with a "KICK ME!" sign on his back. It does not have any reference to Normal Characteristic Maxima.[/quote'] It appears that he has the original HS5, not HS5R; the latter is longer and many of the page references have changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human I have _HERO System fifth edition revised_ ISBN 1-58366-043-7 (You know the big black hard bound with green, gray, and white lettering; a copy of which was shot with a high velocity rifle by someone around here as part of "play testing"?) You folks are going to kick yourselves when the "D'oh!" moment hits... *listening to elevator music in the thread while I wait...* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human The link is to a 250 point "write-up" of one of the most experienced characters in the genre. I can take it for granted that Batman has a lot more than 250 points. This 'Batman' has neither a Batmobile nor a Batcave. As I posted earlier, both of my homage builds for Batman stay as close as possible to the canon source material. And either of them costs 500+ points (600+ for the one intended for a 25 NCM world.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human I have _HERO System fifth edition revised_ ISBN 1-58366-043-7 (You know the big black hard bound with green, gray, and white lettering; a copy of which was shot with a high velocity rifle by someone around here as part of "play testing"?) You folks are going to kick yourselves when the "D'oh!" moment hits... *listening to elevator music in the thread while I wait...* Bad guess on my part, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human Someone asked for a 5ER reference to a GM changing NCM for game balance purposes. Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_ I am so pumped to be able to finally provide the references people ask for! *bounce a bounce a bounce* For reference - this is Champions p58; not the Main Rules. NCM is addressed in 5ER on p39 & p329-330. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human Heck' date=' a house rule is not even required. Just buy his STR and other Kryptonian based characteristics as Powers.[/quote'] You'd have to in 6e - they all have Unified Power. In 5e, they should have "drain one, drain all", as Supes' Kryptonian abilities all seem to get drained in lockstep if they get drained at all. We are not talking about Powers. We are talking about stats. Unless most PCs in your game world tend to have better stats than Kal El, Supes does not have the right to the NCM DisAd. Sure he does. Characteristics purchased as powers are powers, and exempt from NCM, just like Defender's Power Armor stats. Superman's high characteristics do not function under a red sun, so they have a limitation. All characteristics with a limitation are powers, not characteristics, and are not subject to NCM. His characteristics under a red sun are within NCM, so he should get 20 free points for following the rules of NCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human Characteristics purchased as powers are powers' date=' and exempt from NCM, just like Defender's Power Armor stats. Superman's high characteristics do not function under a red sun, so they have a limitation. All characteristics with a limitation are powers, not characteristics, and are not subject to NCM. His characteristics under a red sun are within NCM, so he should get 20 free points for following the rules of NCM.[/quote'] *Bzz't!* A Limitation that does not Limit the character during actual game play is not worth points. As long as Supes spends the vast majority of his time -not- under a red sun, he is not in a campaign where the effects of a red sun matter. A novice attempting to get this Limitation is showing that they do not understand HERO. An experienced HERO user attempting to get this Limitation is Trying To Pull A Fast One. (AKA "munchkin" behavior.) On the the vast majority of game worlds, Supes stats are not powers unless you can come up with some other rationale that will hold up to the RAW. (if your campaign -is- going to spend a very large percentage of its time under a red sun, that clearly changes things.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human Hugh's rational does hold up to RAW. And please stop using Limitation and Disadvantage like they are interchangable terms - they are two separate Mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human Hugh's rational does hold up to RAW. No it does not and it never has. You don't get points for DisAds or Limitations that do not affect game play. If I as a GM can't take advantage of it significantly enough for it to matter to the campaign, then for all intents and purposes it does not exist. This has been the bedrock principle for DisAds and Limitations for as long as they have existed. If Supes red sun vulnerability is to be worth any points at all, it has to come up often enough in game play for it to be something that must be taken into account as a possibility. If it can be ignored for all intents and puposes because we are playing under a non-red sun the vast majority of the time, then it does not matter enough to game play to be a DisAd or Limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human You didn't ask how often a Red Sun would come up in Hugh's campaign. It's RAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human You don't get points for DisAds or Limitations that do not affect game play. If I as a GM can't take advantage of it significantly enough for it to matter to the campaign, then for all intents and purposes it does not exist. So how does NCM, as per 5eR RAW and separate from your house rules, affect game play in a superheroic setting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human You didn't ask how often a Red Sun would come up in Hugh's campaign. It's RAW. Then that game world is uncommon compared to Supes canon. The GM and the player will need to agree on what significant percentage of the time Supes will be in danger of being under a red sun in order to fairly price the DisAd or Limitation. "Infrequently" is going to mean ~3/8 of the time (8- on 3d6). That's going to result in a (-1/4) Limitation if all being under a red sun does is make Supes "normal human". ...and ~ 3/8 of the time he -will- be in circumstances where he is a "normal human" despite his desire to have Kryptonian superpowers at that moment. If he wants more points or a bigger bonus for the DisAd or Limitation, the player is going to have to increase the frequency of the problem (11- or the equivalent is -1/2, 14- or the equivalent is -3/4 or -1) or the severity of the consequences (since this is very much -not- canon, I'm not going to worry about it ATM). THAT is RAW. Not him getting points for something that almost never happens in game play even in his canonical campaigns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human You didn't address him taking NCM I notice. In fact, your entire argument of NCM comes from a non-RAW point of view so you don't get to shove RAW at us now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human So how does NCM' date=' as per 5eR RAW and separate from your house rules, affect game play in a superheroic setting?[/quote'] NCM implies normal human of what we ITRW call ordinary flesh, blood, and bone. That SFX has in play implications just as choosing your EB as Ice Blast does or choosing that you are super strong because you are super dense or ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human The frequency argument can be used equally well vs. a character like Iron-Man (or Champions own Defender for that matter), the seemingly 'Poster Boy' for NCM. How often did the person wearing the Iron-Man suit not have access to its abilities in the classic* Avengers stories? *Pre-Civil War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human NCM implies normal human of what we ITRW call ordinary flesh, blood, and bone. That SFX has in play implications just as choosing your EB as Ice Blast does or choosing that you are super strong because you are super dense or ... NCM implies nothing of the sort. Once More - NCM only states you pay double for Characteristics after a certain point (default 20 for Primaries). There is no attached SFX of "normal person" in any way. Stop adding one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human You didn't address him taking NCM I notice. In fact, your entire argument of NCM comes from a non-RAW point of view so you don't get to shove RAW at us now. The last sentence is BS. It implies that if anyone ever uses -a- House Rule, they have no belief in the RAW nor any right to use the RAW as supporting evidence on matters not related to a house rule. That's illogical. I did not have to do deal with the NCM issue because unless a player can come up with a proper rationale, his stats are -stats- not powers. Not only would NCM while trying to attain Kal-El's stats be cost prohibitive, it also would violate the basic character concept. The only time NCM might be appropriate for Kal-El is when he is under a red sun. Such respect for, and enforcement of, character concept is -also- one of the oldest principles of HERO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human NCM implies nothing of the sort. Once More - NCM only states you pay double for Characteristics after a certain point (default 20 for Primaries). There is no attached SFX of "normal person" in any way. Stop adding one. Paying 2x for stats over a certain limit is the game mechanic bonus... ...as a consequence of choosing the SFX that you will play a heroic character (AKA "a normal") in a superhero campaign. That has been there from day one. So has the principle of running HERO so that play is true to a player's chosen SFX. QED. A player with NCM has the SFX that they are what we would recognize as "normal" on a genetic level in their game world. ...and play should reflect that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human In your game. but that's not in the rules. Doesn't say it anywhere in the book. Stopping forcing your SFX onto the rest of us. NCM is a Mechanic. You must attach SFX for it to be meaningful. But it is does not imply or come with SFX by default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human In your game. but that's not in the rules. Doesn't say it anywhere in the book. Stopping forcing your SFX onto the rest of us. NCM is a Mechanic. You must attach SFX for it to be meaningful. But it is does not imply or come with SFX by default. EVERY mechanic or group of mechanics that produces an effect comes with a SFX by default. That's always been one of the meta-rules of HERO. I'm not forcing any SFX. The SFX is chosen when the effect is chosen. It is always supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human It is - and Normal Human is but one choice. Not the default or only choice. You keep forcing Normal Human onto it. You don't have to choose that SFX for NCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human It is - and Normal Human is but one choice. Not the default or only choice. You keep forcing Normal Human onto it. You don't have to choose that SFX for NCM. It's in the bloodly description of the mechanic. That's as "default" as it gets. If =YOUR= House Rules are otherwise, fine for you. But NCM means the SFX of a normal human in a superhero campign is canon RAW and has been for 20+ years. If having it in print in front of you is not convincing enough, then we've got nothing to talk about on this topic. You hate the NCM mechanic. Fine. But your hate has made you irrational about it. Barring a change in either of our PoV on this topic, you and I have nothing left to talk about regarding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Re: Normal Human sure it isn't. I don't hate NCM at all, I've argued for it for a while. You've ceased to amuse me, plonk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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