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Tanis Frey

Create Water/Food, Purify Water/Food spells

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I think that is a level cf over thinking that isn't needed. ^^

 

If we do indulge it though, we have to ask: "What are the special effects in play?"

 

The Holy Cleric Holly casts "Food of the Gods!". It create magical fruits, vegetables and meats for individuals to consume. It is a divine spell in the setting and the food is not normal food but divinely infused foods that quench the hunger of those who consume it.

 

The Evil Cleric Eric casts "Dispel Holy food." It withers food of its divine essence and causes the remaining morsels to rot.

  • Because the food is still out on the table and un eaten, Eric's spell needs to hit a DcV of 3 and overcome Holly's PwrD of 1. He does, the food rots.
  • Because the food has been consumed an hour ago, Eric has no target to aim for with his "DISPEL" power, he can not use it / it fizzles.
  • Because the player in control of Eric still wants to have an effect, he has a secondary build of the same power that is a DRAIN vs [something: body, con, stun, REC, etc]. But this spell only has effects on characters who have consumed food created though Divine Magic. This time Eric must target the individuals who may have consumed the Divine food and overcome their DcV and PwrD to have any effect.
That is of course only one set of ideas.

 

Soar.

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So your point is that it is too easy to stop the power?

 

 

No, that's a side effect.  My point is that it doesn't simulate food very well and doesn't feel quite right to me as a build.  It simulates a spell that makes people not need food, but which does not actually create anything that they eat.  There's no time needed to actually consume anything, just a shift to lack of hunger and need instantly.  If the spell ends, there's no actual food to disappear, its just over.  So it doesn't simulate the "create food and water" concept very well in my opinion.

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Well, yes, it simulates making people not need food by giving them food to eat. That's the Special Effect.

 

Hungry? Here, eat this. Now you're not hungry anymore.

 

 

If I were building a device to supply oxygen so that a character can survive an environment without it (maybe by deriving oxygen from exhaled carbon dioxide) would you agree with Life Support for that, or would you say it should be Transform to create oxygen?

 

 

In any case, if you think a spell that makes people not need food by giving them food to eat should cost more than a spell that makes people not need food in some other way, I have to say that I wonder why. I suppose I just don't understand that.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Let them eat palindromedaries

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I think the issue here us the rather normal confusion of Sf/x and Mechanical effects. But to parrot Hugh's signature: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck flavored RKA. We must break away the special effect of "creates food from nothing" from the mechanical effect of "benefacor us no longer hungry / delays negative effects of hunger".

 

 

The one power that best simulates the delaying of negative environmental effects is LS. And I think Lucius' example is great. We build air support systems as a Transform but as LS: no need to breathe. There is good reason for that.

 

Saor.

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If I were building a device to supply oxygen so that a character can survive an environment without it (maybe by deriving oxygen from exhaled carbon dioxide) would you agree with Life Support for that, or would you say it should be Transform to create oxygen?

 

 

I'd say it depends a lot on what you're building.  A spell that makes you able to breathe poor air or poisonous gas would be great as life support.  A device that converts the atmosphere around you into oxygen might be a transform or even a change environment.  Making loaves of bread means you can eat them when you want or even feed the local ducks with it.  Life support just makes you not hungry any longer - the effects are different, as are the special effects you can imagine with them.

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 Making loaves of bread means you can eat them when you want or even feed the local ducks with it.  Life support just makes you not hungry any longer - the effects are different, as are the special effects you can imagine with them.

I have to agree with the others here. The EFFECT is pretty much the same - in both cases, characters don't need to worry about starving to death or procuring masses of supplies. The special effect is different .... but that's true of any special effect. You can't set fire to the curtains with your water blast, and you can't extinguish the burning curtains with your fire blast. They are different, but still both just EB. If you want to define Life Support:eating as "creates food" that seems like a viable special effect and the in-game effect is pretty much identical to a much more complex build that creates actual food (how many active points is "food" anyway?).

 

In the same vein, if you want a "summon sword" spell, you want HKA, not transform or summon. The fact that it IS a sword doesn't matter for a power construct. What matters is what it DOES in game.

 

Cheers, Mark

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I'd say it depends a lot on what you're building.  A spell that makes you able to breathe poor air or poisonous gas would be great as life support.  A device that converts the atmosphere around you into oxygen might be a transform or even a change environment.  Making loaves of bread means you can eat them when you want or even feed the local ducks with it.  Life support just makes you not hungry any longer - the effects are different, as are the special effects you can imagine with them.

 

 

The only time I would say that an effect that transforms non-human-life sustaining atmosphere into human-life sustaining atmosphere should be built as anything other than a simple LS is if the effects of that LS also harm or otherwise adversely affect others. Mechanically there is no difference between "Does not breathe" and "is safely in an environment flush with breathable air". Likewise, there is no mechanical difference between "does not eat" and "is securely in an environment with abundant food sources". 

 

Let's look at Aquaman. One thing he can do that I can't do is 'breathe' under water. His body can transform unbreathable water into usable oxygen. So, since there is a physical transformation of water into oxygen, should we require that he buys "transform: Water to breathable O2" or simply by "LS: Expanded breathing - Water"? If we focus on the Special effects too much, we would have to go with the former. But if we recognize that SpF/x are the least important part of the power build equation and look at the mechanics of "water causes no direct harm to normal breathing", we can see that the LS is easily the better option. This directly relates to the food issue under discussion. 

 

Adding more to it, if your stance is that the builds provided do not adequately reflect the physical nature of food as we normally understand it and the builds seem to be implying a "and now you have no hunger without consumption of any food" effect, you can alter my build to make that more apparent. Taking the 1pt LS:Food@1/w and adding "UbO", you then add on a variety of lims to simulate food more directly: OAF / Restrainable (the physical food created), gestures thoughout (need at least one hand), Incantations throughout (requires a level of exclusivity of your mouth), Cost End (to activate) and is paid by all consumers of the food. Maybe one or two more that I didn't think of? But with those we still have a 1 real point power that allows the benefactor to not suffer ill effects from a lack of food. And unless there is some genre specific reason for LS: Food@1/w to cost more than a single point, a power build that lets you let other people get that at 1/d should also not cost more than 1 to 3 points. 

 

Soar. 

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I have been defining sub catorgiores of Magic special effect. So the LS build would need the following variable special effect +1/4. Creating food out of nothing would be magic:Conjuration:Creation sf. Purifying food would be Magic:Alteration. And a spell to make you think that you were not hungry would be magic:Enchamnent/Charm.

 

Secondarly, marking something inherent is normally is reserved for something that is part of you all the time like an extra limb or thick skin (resistant defenses). Creating something out of nothing and making it inherent most likely should be more than the normal +1/4 advantage it is.

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Making something inherent is only a plus 1/4 because it requires the power to already be Constant, Persistent, and Always On. The major benefit of it is that you can't typically Dispel it. That is a rather minor advantage. But if you want to make it more costly you could. Of course, unless you are running a setting where "create food" is a spell that is often the target of dispels, the players will likely not take that inflated advantage because it becomes a pointless expenditure. 

As to having the singular build for LS:Food&Drink be part of two or three different subgroups of schools of magic based on special effect and requiring the player to either buy it again for a new subgroup or purchase the expanded SpF/x advantage seems fair and reasonable. If I had elemental schools for Fire and Water, I would typically require a player either buy 2 Blasts or 1 Blast with Expanded SpF/x in order to have both a Water Blast and a Fire Blast. That said, unless something else was required of the build, I wouldn't mind doing that if I wanted a "well rounded mage/cleric/druid" since it would likely not even cost a single extra point. And at most cost only 1 extra point. But I could also see a player just saying "nah, having this as one school of magic alone is good enough!". 

 

As a side note "making you think you aren't hungry" and "making you not hungry" are two different effects. You can use a Mind Control to make something think they aren't hungry despite them currently starving near to death yet still exerting themselves immensely. That is an important distinction. I realize that your phrasing wasn't likely meant to mean what it does, but it is an important distinction; "LS:does not eat" makes it so you do not suffer from any starvation rules. Period. It doesn't necessarily affect your emotional / mental states. 

 

Soar. 

 

One more side note to the inherent issue that I didn't do well to cover: the inherent advantage is there to make the food "real". It was put in response to the concern that magically created food just wasn't real enough. So the suggestion to add "inherent" was as a solution to the "realness" issue of this food compared to normal food. By sticking on inherent, you are defining the magically created apple to be indistinguishable (mechanically) from a normal apple. Both are "real" and thus things interact with both in the exact same way. It is by no means a necessary adder nor a particularly relevant one other than as a way to assuage certain peculiar reservations. 

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The EFFECT is pretty much the same - in both cases, characters don't need to worry about starving to death or procuring masses of supplies. The special effect is different .... but that's true of any special effect.

 

 

I think its a philosophical thing but for me, if you're going to build a power, I want to make it reflect the actual tangible results as well as possible.  If you want to damage a target, an ice blast and a lightning blast will do have the same EFFECT - the target takes damage.  But the actual tangible results are different, so using one isn't as good as the other.  Special effects matter.

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I think its a philosophical thing but for me, if you're going to build a power, I want to make it reflect the actual tangible results as well as possible.  If you want to damage a target, an ice blast and a lightning blast will do have the same EFFECT - the target takes damage.  But the actual tangible results are different, so using one isn't as good as the other.  Special effects matter.

 

Isn't there some sort of generic Create/Creation ability in one of the Advanced Player Guides?

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But the special effect of the transform mechanic and LS mechanic are the same here.

 

This actually brings up an interesting point.  You can technically define a special effect of anything you want to your power.  You can claim your lightning bolt actually does cold damage because [insert nonsensical scientific sounding explanation here].  You can claim your resistant defense is actually the color of your clothes which causes people to swing less energetically at you and defracts some of the damage: the power of purple!

 

But in real game terms, your claims may or may not stand up to the GM's ruling or rational interpretation.  And, when the game effects interact with that special effect, it doesn't necessarily work out right.  Yes, you bought your light spell as Penetrative Vision usable on others AE, but does that make it visible to the rest of the world?  In other words: is it really light?

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Making someone think that they are not hungry with a mind control build would be enchantment/charm or you could go with images or mental images for an illusion magic school build

You might also be able to do it with a Change Environment build, suppressing PER rolls associated with feelings of hunger.

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I realized that there is a difference between the LS and Transform builds.  The Transform build will eliminate poisons that have been added to the food but the LS build will not.

 

Unless you add in LC:Immunity to non-magical Poisons, 5AP.  All the limits would make the end cp to be 2 or 3.

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This actually brings up an interesting point. You can technically define a special effect of anything you want to your power. You can claim your lightning bolt actually does cold damage because [insert nonsensical scientific sounding explanation here]. You can claim your resistant defense is actually the color of your clothes which causes people to swing less energetically at you and defracts some of the damage: the power of purple!

 

But in real game terms, your claims may or may not stand up to the GM's ruling or rational interpretation. And, when the game effects interact with that special effect, it doesn't necessarily work out right. Yes, you bought your light spell as Penetrative Vision usable on others AE, but does that make it visible to the rest of the world? In other words: is it really light?

You are bot struggling with the content of my post but with a generic issue of hero and most any toolbox systems. If thr GM thinks your build is abusive, they need to exercise good judgement. Is there an issue with a highly cheap power killing (teleport to space)? Is there a power mechanic making things unreasonally cheap (Linking powers to an inherent power thus negating the risk of the link)? Is it attemping to gain a (more) powerful secondary advantage without spending point (a water blast that always changes displayed effect without also buying variable spf/x - or an OAF being hidden away in an unreachable spot yet still working)? These are all legit concerns but not of them challenge and seek to undermine a core hero concept: Mechanics can have any special effect desired because mechanics are divorced from special effects - That is a core concept that makes HERO different to say DnD where mechanic and special effect are always the same.

 

 

And lots of Comicbook heroes have their RD look like nothing at all. Superman has his skin. Karate kid has his as his ability to dodge. Wolverine has his as his regeneration factor. The question is not that such builds are inappropriate always but are they genre and game specific okay.

 

 

So, I again come to my point that purify atmosphere, create atmosphere, remove ann need to breathe can all be created with the same basic power because the the final mechanical effect is the same. Resorting to Transform or EDM to fix a build problem is a last resort (as it advices in the book!).

 

Soar.

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I realized that there is a difference between the LS and Transform builds.  The Transform build will eliminate poisons that have been added to the food but the LS build will not.

 

Unless you add in LC:Immunity to non-magical Poisons, 5AP.  All the limits would make the end cp to be 2 or 3.

You have a point. Also, not just poison, but some pathogen could also be in the food, so some Life Support vs food borne illness is also to be considered.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Support

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Incorporating purification of toxins and pathogens.

 

 

Have some Food: (Total: 10 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Life Support (Eating: Character only has to eat once per week; Immunity: Foodborne toxins and pathogens), Inherent (+1/4), Variable Special Effects (Any SFX; +1/2), Usable Nearby (+3/4), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (10 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), Time Limit (1 Day; -1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

 

 

My proposed build had Variable Special Effects specifically because it's one Power Build incorporating several possible "spells."

 

Want to find edible food in the wilderness? Check.

 

Want to slice a small loaf of bread so it feeds 16 even though there's only enough left for 8? Check.

 

Want to purify food that's gone bad or is suspect? Check.

 

Want to literally conjure a meal out of your hat? Check.

 

You can define each of these feats as "separate spells" and still represent them as a single Power Build.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Feeding a palindromedary

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