What happens if a character's velocity is greater than 0m when the character gets a Phase?

[Hey I Can Chan]

I'm preparing to run a Hero System, 6th Edition campaign, and I'm struggling to understand movement, especially velocity. Here's the question: When a character's Phase ends yet his velocity is still greater than 0m, does the character's velocity affect what Actions the character can take on his next Phase?

 

For example, Slick's Phase ends, but his velocity is still 20m. On Slick's next Phase, can he take a Zero Phase Action to add velocity (E61 156), spend a Half Phase to take a Half Move during which he adds even more velocity, then spend a Half Phase to take an Action that requires an Attack roll, despite Slick still having a greater-than-0m velocity? Or, because Slick's velocity is 20m at the start of the Phase, must Slick first take a Full Move or Half Move to reduce his velocity to 0m before the character can do anything else besides move?

 

My confusion stems from this statement: A character "may not deactivate the Movement Power until he decelerates to 0m normally or through some outside means" (E61 156 and E62 25). So far as I can tell, the game doesn't describe exactly what this means (i.e. I can't tell if not moving is supposed to be the same thing as deactivating a Movement Power). Further, the game doesn't seem to describe how already having velocity when a Phase begins impacts the character's ability to take Actions. Finally, I've found no examples that cover what I imagine is this relatively common situation.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[Duke Bushido]

10 hours ago, Hey I Can Chan said:

My confusion stems from this statement: A character "may not deactivate the Movement Power until he decelerates to 0m normally or through some outside means" (E61 156 and E62 25). So far as I can tell, the game doesn't describe exactly what this means (i.e. I can't tell if not moving is supposed to be the same thing as deactivating a Movement Power). Further, the game doesn't seem to describe how already having velocity when a Phase begins impacts the character's ability to take Actions. Finally, I've found no examples that cover what I imagine is this relatively common situation.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

 

Yeah....

 

That....    That's one of those moments where clean, plain, simple language still manages to pile up into lawyerspeak: that is to say, the inclusion of something that would seem completely unnecessary, which leads to complicating something that should be extremely simple.

 

So, what that says:

 

The character may not stop Running until he stops running.

The character may not stop Flight until he stops flying.

The character may not stop Swimming until he stops swimming.

 

More simply: you can't turn off a Power and still be using it.  Now what I just say sounds a little goofy, but the more clearly-stated version of that is "you can't use a power that is turned off," and that's not something anyone would find necessary to say, in light of all the other discussion of turning powers off and on.

 

So:  If you're running at 100kph, you can't decide to "turn off your running."   

 

For I what it's worth, I find that rule to be a violation of the spirit of the HERO system anyway.  If some part of my harebrained scheme to take out the villain involves "I accelerate to 200kph, turn off my running, stumble and roll along the pavement in great agony until my momentum is spent," then I should be allowed to do that.  No sane person would want to, but the insane should be allowed to (well, the sane, too; I just don't see it coming up as often).

 

Now here's the part of that which saw the most discussion at my own tables:

 

 

I have Flight, 10."  Given the current height at which I am flying, I can fall faster at terminal velocity than I can with Flight.  While dropping onto this strange new planet with my jump pack, the eggheads figure it's best for me to fly to a particular altitude directly over the beacon and _cut the pack_ for a full thirty seconds.   Then fire up the pack, full open to slow myself.  When the G-meter drops to .5, cut the pack again for another twenty seconds; repeat...."

 

I haven't landed, but I most certainly stopped using Flight-- several times.   The argument can be made that I'm not flying; I'm falling.  So what's slowing me down?  Is the rocket pack some sort of platform on which I've landed and left and landed and left?  Is it "Gliding" like a parachute?

 

A much more technical argument can be made that the entire process, from drop to planetary touchdown, is "the entire flight."  Problematically, we play that game turn by turn and even phase by phase.  How much END / Fuel Charge should I pay for the five turns it was "off" the first time?  Of the full twenty segments I wasn't using it the next time it was off the second time?

 

 

Going less sciencey:

 

"It's no good; I'm not going to make it; too much blood....   tired...    "  Captain Guywitwingz knows his time has come, yet he keeps pushing.  There must be something-- _something_-- one last way to serve his teammates, to thwart the enemy.  Then he sees the child, far below.  His Guywitwingz Vision-- part and universal parcel of the Guywitwingz package he received via that origin he had so many years ago recently, have allowed him to find the child.  He has escaped the Nazis, and is running for his life, but one of them-- one of them is about to stumble across the child's hiding spot!  "I can't.... I can't..."  He knows he doesn't have the END to fly down to the child, grab the child, and fly away.  What to do?!  The world is black, spinning.....   If only he could just stop flying and fall out of the sky, his impressive Guywitwingz physique would sure drop the Nazi in his tracks.    No...  the world just doesn't work that way....   The good captain knows that it's too late now....  without the power to fly down to the ground, he is going to become another of the thousands of floating dead, stuck here in the sky...   He couldn't even wish to be his own headstone for all eternity, because he was either going to be eaten, rot away, or get hit by a plane, eventually.....

 

 

That rule, at our table, received the ignominious Black Highlighter Award, and has not been uttered aloud since the Ceremony of Deserved Desecration.

 

It's your game, no matter what, but I would highly encourage you ignore that rule as well, and let, in the oft-oft-oft repeated words of 6e, "let common sense and dramatic sense" be the judge of when a character can or cannot turn off a power.  It certainly seems more right than a rule that says "your common sense and dramatic sense are utter crap; do this instead."

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Hey I Can Chan, well the simple answer is don’t worry about it. My group never did. We just worried about did you make a half (combat) move or full move. And really if you never played before I would highly suggest to just play at first like this. If you feel you need the momentum rules then when you get some experience under your belts, add it in. Remember to have fun and only use the rules you want to to have fun.

And for the life of me I believe the rule you’re asking about only is for vehicles and such. Personal  movement isn’t affected by this rule. (Away from books right now.)

[Hey I Can Chan]

Thank you for the replies. I know that, as the GM, I can dispense with any rules for any or no reason. However, as a newcomer to 6E, I'm still trying to learn its rules. I'm trying to establish a baseline first so that if I choose to ignore a rule I know why I'm ignoring it and what impact ignoring it has on the game.

 

For instance, here's my read: Skid takes a Zero Phase Action to add velocity then takes a Full Move to use Running to travel 30m, ending his Phase with a velocity of 30m. At the start of Skid's next Phase, because Skid has 30m of velocity, Skid can't deactivate his Running. Knowing this, Skid on his Phase takes a Zero Phase Action to remove velocity then takes a Half Move to use Running to travel 6m to reduce his velocity to 0m then takes an Attack action.

 

However, if, as is suggested, I ignore velocity when it doesn't matter, my read's different: Skid takes a Zero Phase Action to add velocity then takes a Full Move to use Running to travel 30m, ending his Phase with a velocity of 30m. At the start of Skid's next Phase, because the GM opts to ignore excess velocity when it's unimportant, Skid can deactivate his Running. Knowing this, Skid on his Phase takes a Zero Phase Action to deactivate his Running then takes an Attack action.

 

I see that difference as pretty significant. Essentially being forced to give up at least a Half Phase Action isn't nothing, and essentially being forced to move can be hazardous.

[Duke Bushido]

Ah; yes.  I see what youre asking now.  My appologies for misunderstanding.

 

You are inquiring, I believe,about decellrating; correct?  If so, then there are rules for deceleration and acelleration.  It is assumed that you will drop to velocity zero before you turn off your running, or at leasr to velocity 12m, which is non-super running speed.

 

You can, of course, opt to turn off a power while moving at speed, but you will enter the movement type equivalent of freefall.  Not Terri le if you are flying or swimming, but pretty rough on the face if you are running.     

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

This is such an edge case scenario that it's not likely to come up until you're a lot more comfortable with the bulk of the rules.  And if it does come up before then, it's likely you'll have a lot more context from the current situation that you'll still be able to make a ruling.  

 

As I said on the Discord, the mantra is usually common sense, dramatic sense, and special effects.  And an optional fourth part: let the dice decide.  You can certainly let the player make a DEX Roll, and determine what happens from that.  (Dirty little GM secret: a lot of times "make a ___ roll" is shorthand for, if the player rolls really well or really poorly it's obvious as to what happens, and sometimes the act of them rolling gives you that extra time to figure out what happens if it's close.)  

 

See also The Ultimate Speedster.

[massey]

I believe that sentence is a new addition to the 6th edition rules.  I don't recall anything like that in previous versions of the rules.  Understand that the guy who wrote the 6th edition rules (Steve Long) is a lawyer, and sometimes his lawyer tendencies get the better of him.  I think this is one of those times.

 

There's a difference between the Rules As Written, and the Game As Played.  I've played in a lot of Hero games over the decades, and I don't think I've ever once seen this come up.  The only time this might be an issue is with noncombat movement, in regular movement it shouldn't be an issue.  Also remember that there's nothing saying you can't slow down again during your initial movement, and that's probably what characters should be considered as doing during the game.  It keeps it simpler that way.

 

Captain Speedster has 50 meters of Running.  On Segment 2, he begins moving towards the Mad Scientist and his Doomsday Device.  The Mad Scientist is exactly 50 meters away.  On Segment 2, Captain Speedster accelerates up to 50 meters per phase of velocity.  He travels 10 meters while building up to speed.  He travels forward 50 meters and is now standing next to Mad Scientist.  He can choose to retain that 50 meters of velocity (in which case he'll have to slow down next phase), or he can simply say that over the last 10 meters of movement, he was reducing his velocity.  So the first 10 meters he speeds up, then he covers 30 meters at full speed, and the last 10 meters he slows down.  He is now standing next to the Mad Scientist at a velocity of zero.

 

For normal everyday interactions, that's probably how you should handle it.  It's a lot easier.  Maybe you'd want to handle vehicles differently, or large noncombat multiples.  But just for everyday combat movement, you don't want to give yourself headaches.

[Duke Bushido]

I probably should have added this:

 

By and large, I ignore the decel rules for runners.  I do _not_ ignore them ror "Flight, only when touching a surface."  After all, thats nit the running mechanic (though it is very similar).  Primarily, I sont mind giving that little edge to the guy who bought the full-priced version of the power, and thw source material (or at least the flash TV show and thr Lego Flash cartoon my kids downloaded) supports the ideas that super-runners stop on a dime and take off like humming birds.

 

 

[Hey I Can Chan]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

You are inquiring, I believe,about decellrating; correct?  If so, then there are rules for deceleration and acelleration.  It is assumed that you will drop to velocity zero before you turn off your running, or at leasr to velocity 12m, which is non-super running speed.

 

You can, of course, opt to turn off a power while moving at speed, but you will enter the movement type equivalent of freefall.  Not Terri le if you are flying or swimming, but pretty rough on the face if you are running.   

 

 

Deceleration is involved, yes, but it's not the crux. I know how a character declares his intent to decelerate (the character takes the Zero Phase Action remove velocity), and I know how a character actually decelerates (typically by shedding velocity at the rate of 5m per 1m traveled). My confusion is still centers on this statement: A character "may not deactivate the Movement Power until he decelerates to 0m normally or through some outside means" (E61 156 and E62 25). (This, by the way, I think makes turning off the Running technically impossible while velocity remains.)

 

Thank you, Chris, for suggesting Ultimate Speedster. (I had it on my shelf. I've acquired a lot of Hero Games material over the years but only rarely have gotten to play and have never played *6E*.) That book on Common Sense Acceleration and Deceleration says

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[For example, t]he next Phase the character decides he doesn’t want to move any more, so he turns off his Running. By the strict letter of the rules, he should first have to decelerate to 0”, which means he actually will travel a few more inches [or meters in *6e*] before he can come to a complete stop. But in virtually all situations, it’s a waste of time and energy to figure that out. Just let the character stay where he was when he stopped moving last Phase and go on with the game. Only if it’s really important—like when those few extra inches might carry the character over the side of a cliff—should the GM consider invoking the deceleration rules. (206)

 

 

 

 

…which is fine, I guess. It still surprises me, though, that the 6E rules, given their depth, never actually come out and say what happens normally in this situation.

 

Maybe my misunderstanding is more fundamental. Let me back up. My read is that because a character can only take a Zero Phase Action to pick add velocity or remove velocity once per Phase, a character that picks add velocity then takes a Full Move—if he moves at all—will end his Phase with some velocity if he doesn't first pick a destination:
 

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Adding or removing velocity is a Zero Phase Action, but characters can do it only once per Phase, unless the GM rules otherwise (as the GM typically does if the character simply wants to move to a location within his meters of movement — the character accelerates while moving there, then slows down and stops when he reaches his destination). (E61 156)

 

Yes, the GM could issue a blanket ruling otherwise, but 6E doesn't suggest that (and it suggests a lot!). Really, my read is that the character specifically picked add velocity because the character didn't have a destination and wanted to travel meter by meter using Running (or Swimming or Tunneling or Flight with No Turn Mode) so as to adjust his route on the fly. Is that correct?

 

If that's a correct conclusion, then to me that sounds like the game kind of neatly simulating what I think many might view as "normal" travel—even down to, next Phase, having to take a Zero Phase Action to reduce velocity then a Half Move to travel some distance to decelerate before taking an Attack Action because of something that was spotted last Phase. That's complicated, but I'm okay with complicated.

 

If it's an incorrect conclusion, what are the rules saying? For instance, is all movement supposed to be plotted all the time?

 

Massey, I just checked the Fifth Edition core rulebook, and, you're correct, it does not say that a character "may not deactivate the Movement Power until he decelerates to 0m normally or through some outside means." However, Ultimate Speedster says that twice (27 and 205). And, really, I want to make sense of the rules so I do know the game I'm playing. I'm trying to educate myself on how to play this game so that the people I sit down at the table with—who don't know the game's community, who don't know the game's history, who don't know the game's norms—can look at the same book I'm looking at and see how I reached the conclusions that I did.

 

[Chris Goodwin]

7 hours ago, massey said:

I believe that sentence is a new addition to the 6th edition rules.  I don't recall anything like that in previous versions of the rules.  Understand that the guy who wrote the 6th edition rules (Steve Long) is a lawyer, and sometimes his lawyer tendencies get the better of him.  I think this is one of those times.

 

Being curious, I just checked 3rd edition Champions, and it (edit) doesn't (/edit) say it in there.  Specifically, 3rd edition advises players to say whether they're maintaining velocity or not at the end of their Phase, and that it could matter for a character switching to Noncombat movement.  

 

That aside: while it's "technically" correct that it takes a Zero Phase action to activate or deactivate a Movement Power (Running, Flight, etc.), and while it's also "technically" correct that a character has to accelerate at the beginning and decelerate at the end... in practice, you'll never, ever be in a game where anyone even bothers with that.  "I move from here to there" is shorthand for all of that.  

 

If you have 30m of movement, then during your Phase, you can move 30m.  Despite any calculations for acceleration or deceleration.  

 

@Hey I Can Chan  I'll strongly advise common sense.  Assume that a moving character in combat is not keeping their velocity unless they specify, or unless context clues indicate otherwise.  A chase scene, or running along with traffic on a road, or attempting a Move By or Move Through, or leaving combat, or movement outside of combat time, might indicate the moving character is maintaining their velocity.  When in doubt, ask.  

 

On 11/14/2020 at 9:40 PM, Hey I Can Chan said:

For example, Slick's Phase ends, but his velocity is still 20m.

 

Here's the part that I keep tripping myself up on.  This will almost never be the case, unless Slick's player specifies that they're maintaining velocity at the end of their Phase.  Or unless there's some context that indicates otherwise, but that context will almost always be obvious from what's going on in play.  

[Duke Bushido]

Sorry,  Chris.

 

I wanted to Like that, but apparently I have overreacted again today...

 

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

Consider how a person moves in combat.  Usually it's a few steps, maybe from one opponent to another, or to get behind cover.  A character can move up to their maximum movement in combat as a Full Phase Action.  That doesn't necessarily -- in fact, usually doesn't -- mean that if their full movement is 30m per Phase, and they move 30m, that they end their Phase with a velocity of 30m/Phase.  

 

There are situations in which a character would want to.  For instance, a vehicle moving on a road, or a character moving on a road with vehicle traffic, is probably going to be assumed to be keeping up with traffic.  A character with intent to perform a Move By or Move Through on a target is probably going to be assumed to maintain their velocity.  A character either leaving an active combat scene or outside of combat, who is preparing to accelerate to Noncombat speeds, is going to be assumed to maintain their velocity.  A character who is trying to catch up to another character -- whether the target is fleeing, falling, etc. -- is going to be assumed to maintain velocity.  In any of these situations, it's safe to assume the character is maintaining their velocity, unless they specify otherwise.  

 

In almost every instance in combat, when a character is engaging in tactical movement -- moving from one opponent to another, or moving to get a better shot on a target, or moving behind cover, can very nearly always be assumed to not be maintaining their velocity.  

 

If you're not sure whether the player is going to have their character maintain their velocity, ask!  

 

And if a player wants to try something that might take advantage of another character's velocity -- like putting up an invisible Barrier in their path so they slam into it, or using their delayed Phase to move up and Martial Throw them -- either let them, because it's fun for them, or have them make a DEX Roll to see if they can time it right.  And I might give the target a DEX Roll to change their movement, stop suddenly, or do something else to avoid the hazard... unless it would be less fun for the player.  

 

As a GM, I would assume based on common sense that the character is moving optimally for the environment they're in.  I wouldn't require them to declare whether or not they're maintaining their movement, in all of the cases I listed above.  In all of the time I've been playing Hero in various forms (35 years for me) I've never been in a situation where a GM required me to declare whether or not I was maintaining velocity, with the very possible and rare exceptions that I've noted above.  There may have been two instances during that time where I have specified whether or not I was maintaining velocity, one of those being within the past two years.  

 

Nota bene:  As a point of information, I should mention that it's not a Zero Phase action to add or subtract velocity.  In those instances where it matters, it takes 1 unit of movement for a character to change their velocity by plus or minus 5 units.  And even then, there are options to use to improve acceleration or deceleration.  

 

[Duke Bushido]

5 hours ago, Hey I Can Chan said:

 

 

Deceleration is involved, yes, but it's not the crux. I know how a character declares his intent to decelerate (the character takes the Zero Phase Action remove velocity), and I know how a character actually decelerates (typically by shedding velocity at the rate of 5m per 1m traveled). My confusion is still centers on this statement: A character "may not deactivate the Movement Power until he decelerates to 0m normally or through some outside means" (E61 156 and E62 25). (This, by the way, I think makes turning off the Running technically impossible while velocity remains.)

 

Thank you, Chris, for suggesting Ultimate Speedster. (I had it on my shelf. I've acquired a lot of Hero Games material over the years but only rarely have gotten to play and have never played *6E*.) That book on Common Sense Acceleration and Deceleration says

 

…which is fine, I guess. It still surprises me, though, that the 6E rules, given their depth, never actually come out and say what happens normally in this situation.

 

Maybe my misunderstanding is more fundamental. Let me back up. My read is that because a character can only take a Zero Phase Action to pick add velocity or remove velocity once per Phase, a character that picks add velocity then takes a Full Move—if he moves at all—will end his Phase with some velocity if he doesn't first pick a destination:
 

 

Chris has, as he is known to do, given you some really solid advice on how to interpret that particular rule.  Frankly, his advice is probably better than my "ignore the heck out of that rule because that's what's confusing you." 

 

What he said-- just assume that the character began decelerating during his previous movement-- is pretty much how it works out in play anyway.  Here is the other option:

 

Everything is precisely mapped.  The Player has Slick moving at X meters per Phase.  The Player wants Slick to stop at a certain hex.  So now the Player must hold up the game while he breaks out the tape measure or starts counting hexes, then does some math, figuring he can drop "x" amount of velocity by moving "y" meters, and he wants to arrive at momentum 0 in hex T, and starts doing some math--- and the game is on pause while the player does all this  (I have no idea how old you are or how you got into RPGs, but if you remember the tactical war games they grew out of, you remember how tedious and time-consuming this can get-- _especially_ if it's not your turn.    ).  Finally, having arrived at the idea set up-- one which will preserve his momentum for as long as possible, and institute maximum braking at the last possible instant, he makes that first move.

 

Then the next guy has a Phase, and he does the same thing.  Third guy things "Hey; I waited for them!  I didn't even _want_ to move, but now I just want to show them how irritating that was!" and he initiates his own algebra test to change his position.

 

No one (except possibly Scott, who prefers the old war games and enjoys that tactical side of HERO a lot of people shy away from) plays like that.  Why?  Because it's just as practical to assume that the character has already made all these determinations for himself either prior to moving or on the fly while he was moving.   In play (and seriously: you can test this if you like), the end result of either method is _identical_: you arrive at point T at Phase P, just like you planned.  The only genuine difference is for obscenely high speeds (usually vehicles, honestly; flying ones) Slick might have that phase just before he stops at slightly less than top speed, which effects only the movement modifiers for his CV, and then by what-- ?  One?  Maybe?  _Possibly 2_?

 

Don't get me wrong, now: if that level of modeling appeals to you, then by all means _do_ it!  The whole purpose of this game (or any other, really) is to have fun, so do it the way that provides you with the most entertainment possible.   No one here is going to judge you for how you play your game.

 

If it helps, then consider this:

 

Turning a Power "on" and "off" can also refer to the Endurance expended _using_ that Power: consider that the line that is troubling you _might_ be interpreted as "The character will spend the END for his movement power so long as he is moving," or "until his velocity is 0."

 

As for concern about having to wait until your "Zero Phase" comes around again-- "It's Phase 0; I turn off my movement power since I'm not moving now" isn't inherently any different from "Since I stopped moving last Phase after my half-move, I'll go ahead and turn that movement power off."  I mean, if you weren't moving, you weren't burning END anyway, so what's the harm in declaring that's how it goes down? Or you can accept that on Zero Phase, you can declare "My power is being turned off, and will be off as soon as I stop moving."

 

Either way, looking at it from the END expenditure point of view might help you wrestle the idea a little better.

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Hey I Can Chan said:

Yes, the GM could issue a blanket ruling otherwise, but 6E doesn't suggest that (and it suggests a lot!). Really, my read is that the character specifically picked add velocity because the character didn't have a destination and wanted to travel meter by meter using Running (or Swimming or Tunneling or Flight with No Turn Mode) so as to adjust his route on the fly. Is that correct?

 

If that's a correct conclusion, then to me that sounds like the game kind of neatly simulating what I think many might view as "normal" travel—even down to, next Phase, having to take a Zero Phase Action to reduce velocity then a Half Move to travel some distance to decelerate before taking an Attack Action because of something that was spotted last Phase. That's complicated, but I'm okay with complicated.

 

If it's an incorrect conclusion, what are the rules saying? For instance, is all movement supposed to be plotted all the time?

 

First: it is _not_ an incorrect conclusion.  And, if it helps, it also says--- granted, 6e says it less than other editions, but it does say it, and it says it several different ways-- that it is _your_ game, and you are free to use or not use any rules you want, and you are completely correct in doing so.  I understand wanting to do everything "by the books."  Seriously:  I get it. I, too, am attracted to the idea that I might possible by able to master seven books and a thousand pages and have all that at my fingertips.  Problematically, that's not going to happen (not because it isn't possible, but because I'm much happier with an older edition.  That's just me, though).  The biggest reason it's not going to happen is because of the optional rules.  It's not possible to use all of them because some of them will contradict other optional rules.  Once you get comfortable with the idea that "I'm not going to be able to use every single rule," it becomes much easier to accept "and I don't want to use this rule, either."  Just as an example  (Guys: this is not open for discussion; I am posting an example, okay?), were I to play 6e, there would be a Comeliness characteristic added to every character sheet and "Striking Appearance" would be highlighted with the biggest, blackest Sharpie I could find.  But again: that's just me.  Some people are happy using PRE to simulate Charisma; I am not.  No big deal: no one is going to crucify me over it, and I don't care that I'm the only one doing it.

 

See?

 

Anyway, to get back on track here, consider reading the line that troubles you as "the character must pay END for the movement power until he is not moving."   Consider that "turning it off" is _separate_ from not using it.  Frankly, "Zero Phase Action" in itself can cause some confusion, particularly since later rules sets establish that there is a set point in the Phase for them: you must do these before doing anything else."  You and I know that's not true.  You can drop something as a Zero Phase Action, but be honest:  how many things-- especially as a kid-- did you ever drop mid-run?  How many on accident?  How many on purpose?  Since we have proven that it's entirely real-world possible to do a Zero Phase Action in the middle of some other non-Zero action, why insist that they have to be done first?   (Yes; I understand that this is much easier and more in keeping with the wargaming roots of Champions / HERO System, but let's be honest:  it's not a war game anymore.  It _can_ be, but it isn't.  And I get that it's to keep players from "cheating" or "Changing their minds."  Two things there: everyone commits to something and changes their minds.  Not everything, but there's been something where you had to change your plan on the fly.  Second: I don't see the point in playing with people I can't trust to be honest.)  Consider even that "My Power will turn off at the end of this next half-move is a legitimate Zero Phase Action.  And consider that the troublesome line in the rules is referring to turning the power off in terms of END expenditure.

 

Any of those should help you get a grip on it.

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Hey I Can Chan said:

Massey, I just checked the Fifth Edition core rulebook, and, you're correct, it does not say that a character "may not deactivate the Movement Power until he decelerates to 0m normally or through some outside means." However, Ultimate Speedster says that twice (27 and 205). And, really, I want to make sense of the rules so I do know the game I'm playing. I'm trying to educate myself on how to play this game so that the people I sit down at the table with—who don't know the game's community, who don't know the game's history, who don't know the game's norms—can look at the same book I'm looking at and see how I reached the conclusions that I did.

 

 

 

A couple of notes:

 

Most of the Ultimates are dedicated to a particular schtick, and thus a particular "main power" from which inspiration is drawn for other powers that could be built with shared special effects of this "main power."  Consider also that a lot of the rules-specific text, particularly in regard to that "main power," is pulled directly from a core rule book.   Lastly, consider that the guy who wrote the rules and believed that this line was clear and self-explanatory also co-wrote the Ultimate Speedster.  I have no doubt that he simply didn't realize that this line is not as clear as he thought it was, and so it remained in every book since the line was first printed.

 

 

Just a thought, but again- if it's anything that will help you, feel free to mull it over.

 

 

Have fun.  I've got to root through my desktop to find something for Scott.

 

 

Later!

 

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

7 hours ago, Hey I Can Chan said:

 

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[For example, t]he next Phase the character decides he doesn’t want to move any more, so he turns off his Running. By the strict letter of the rules, he should first have to decelerate to 0”, which means he actually will travel a few more inches [or meters in *6e*] before he can come to a complete stop. But in virtually all situations, it’s a waste of time and energy to figure that out. Just let the character stay where he was when he stopped moving last Phase and go on with the game. Only if it’s really important—like when those few extra inches might carry the character over the side of a cliff—should the GM consider invoking the deceleration rules. (206)

 

 

 

 

…which is fine, I guess. It still surprises me, though, that the 6E rules, given their depth, never actually come out and say what happens normally in this situation.

 

Actual play differs from the letter of the rules, universally enough that I'm a little surprised that the letter of the rules actually say what they do.  But indeed they do.  And the common sense rules you quoted above are exactly what I was looking for, thinking they were already in 6e. 

 

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Maybe my misunderstanding is more fundamental. Let me back up. My read is that because a character can only take a Zero Phase Action to pick add velocity or remove velocity once per Phase, a character that picks add velocity then takes a Full Move—if he moves at all—will end his Phase with some velocity if he doesn't first pick a destination:
 

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Adding or removing velocity is a Zero Phase Action, but characters can do it only once per Phase, unless the GM rules otherwise (as the GM typically does if the character simply wants to move to a location within his meters of movement — the character accelerates while moving there, then slows down and stops when he reaches his destination). (E61 156)

 

 

 

 

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Yes, the GM could issue a blanket ruling otherwise, but 6E doesn't suggest that (and it suggests a lot!). Really, my read is that the character specifically picked add velocity because the character didn't have a destination and wanted to travel meter by meter using Running (or Swimming or Tunneling or Flight with No Turn Mode) so as to adjust his route on the fly. Is that correct?

 

Edit to add:  That would be a correct interpretation of the rules as written.  But rules as interpreted and game as played all follow the common sense rule.

 

When I say this, I mean it as literally as the word "literally" literally means.  No one enforces the letter of these particular rules here.  The word "typically" that I bolded above ought to really read "universally" instead.  

 

I think the book doesn't suggest it because everyone already does it, as a matter of common sense.  This really ought to be changed, in fact, to match practical use at the game table.  

[Chris Goodwin]

That was not the rule in 3rd edition, so I decided to find out where it came from.  Not in 4th either; in 5th non-revised, acceleration and deceleration are listed in the actions table as a 0 Phase action.  5er is where the verbiage also in 6th edition first appeared.  

 

So the reason no one enforces the rule is that it really wasn't a rule when most of us started playing.  And it was also so not-a-rule that I had a hard time getting it even when the text was quoted to me.  

 

In my opinion: enforcing the rule as written in most combats would make the game nearly impossible to actually play.  I can see instances where it might be useful; with vehicles, for instance, but not for set-piece combat scenes.

[LoneWolf]

The only time this is going to be a problem is if the character is moving at non-combat velocity.  Since you can normally add or subtract up to your movement speed to your velocity this means that in combat this is usually not going to be a problem.  But if a character has a high non-combat multiplier and is moving at fully speed it may take him a few segments to slow down.  

[Hey I Can Chan]

Thank you again, everyone, for your help. Those were some really good reads on this topic, and I appreciate it greatly. We ran a sample combat last week, and, by the end, we'd shorthanded already a lot of the game's bulk. Chris, also thank you for doing the research. It's great to learn that this a relatively new wrinkle for this game; that explains the limited amount of attention (and why everyone thought I was crazy).

 

Lone Wolf, my understanding of the rules is that the GM should allow generally both acceleration and deceleration during a Phase's movement if that movement takes the character from his starting point to a checkpoint (i.e. the movement's plotted): "[T]he character accelerates while moving there, then slows down and stops when he reaches his destination" (E61 156). This is an exception, though. If a character wants to, for instance, take a full move but just wants to move instead of to go to a checkpoint, it seems to me that he moves meter by meter (unless the Movement Power has a Turn Mode or is unusual). This would seem to be the best way to, for instance, explore an unknown area except that any velocity gained must be kept, so the explorer must make sure his velocity isn't so great that he can't maneuver well if something surprises him (i.e. taking a Zero Phase Action at the beginning of the next Phase to remove velocity then taking a Half Move during which the character decelerates).

 

I know that it may seem like the second instance won't come up very often, especially in a superheroic campaign like mine, but if that's what's supposed to happen according to the rules (and most folks are agreeing that should happen…) , I'd really like to be able to tell my players that and then ignore the rules (…as everyone is saying that they already do and that the game runs just fine without them).