Body for everything

[Stonewild]

Strength for damage is such a part of my gaming experience, I have a hard time imagining any other way.  Yet, champions seems bent on removing calculations based on stats.  Wonder what that would look like?  Strength only helping skill check rolls and not used for damage rolls.  Like ego resisting mental attacks, use strength for Breaking entangles, resisting grabs,  and such.   

[Spence]

I'm actually confused.

 

Strength has a skill roll and a damage/effect roll.  Just like all the other attributes.  I normally play and read 5thR so I checked 6th. 

 

Right there it was.  A strength skill roll and then a roll for effect.  I do the same with all the attributes as they come up. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[schir1964]

1 hour ago, Spence said:

I'm actually confused.

 

Strength has a skill roll and a damage/effect roll.  Just like all the other attributes.  I normally play and read 5thR so I checked 6th. 

 

Right there it was.  A strength skill roll and then a roll for effect.  I do the same with all the attributes as they come up. 

 

 

What effect roll do you have for CON, INT?

SPD?

STUN?

END?

[Grailknight]

6 hours ago, schir1964 said:

What effect roll do you have for CON, INT?

SPD?

STUN?

END?

 

INT is used for many Skills directly and PER is derived from it. CON is the only orphan characteristic of the bases that Figured Characteristics were derived from. SPD, STUN and END, being Figured Characteristics, had different mechanics. 

 

Divorcing STR from damage isn't a new concept but the only argument that made sense to me was for play balance in pre-6th builds. I can't think of any other RPG where high STR doesn't correlate to high damage in HTH. STR is only Obvious when it's in use so being large and muscular is an SFX in Hero. 

 

Sean, we already have the mechanics in the system for people who aren't strong but who hit hard, HA and/or Martial Arts. That rare character that is strong but can't hit hard should get a Limitation on their STR to reflect that. No need to reinvent the wheel in either case.

 

[schir1964]

39 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

INT is used for many Skills directly and PER is derived from it. CON is the only orphan characteristic of the bases that Figured Characteristics were derived from. SPD, STUN and END, being Figured Characteristics, had different mechanics. 

 

Divorcing STR from damage isn't a new concept but the only argument that made sense to me was for play balance in pre-6th builds. I can't think of any other RPG where high STR doesn't correlate to high damage in HTH. STR is only Obvious when it's in use so being large and muscular is an SFX in Hero. 

 

Sean, we already have the mechanics in the system for people who aren't strong but who hit hard, HA and/or Martial Arts. That rare character that is strong but can't hit hard should get a Limitation on their STR to reflect that. No need to reinvent the wheel in either case.

 

You mentioned Skill Rolls and Damage/Effect rolls.

Obviously INT and CON have Skill Rolls. Seems like you were suggesting they also had an Effect Roll in you games. Was curious as to what that was.

 

As far as the Perception Roll my opinion is that roll exists outside of INT. You can have  a perception roll without INT. I think there are actually examples of that with Automatons and Computers that have no INT but still have a Perception Roll depending on what they designed to do.

 

Anyway, it seems that these two Characteristics do not have an effect roll.

 

I thought you might be excluding the figured characteristics but how you worded your statement (all the other attributes) it was unclear.

[Grailknight]

46 minutes ago, schir1964 said:

You mentioned Skill Rolls and Damage/Effect rolls.

Obviously INT and CON have Skill Rolls. Seems like you were suggesting they also had an Effect Roll in you games. Was curious as to what that was.

 

As far as the Perception Roll my opinion is that roll exists outside of INT. You can have  a perception roll without INT. I think there are actually examples of that with Automatons and Computers that have no INT but still have a Perception Roll depending on what they designed to do.

 

Anyway, it just that these two Characteristics do not seem to an effect roll.

 

I thought you might be excluding the figured characteristics but how you worded your statement (all other attributes) it was unclear.

 

I am excluding the Figured Characteristics. They each have specific game mechanics.

 

No,  CON  doesn't have an Effect roll.  It's role has always been very small outside of the Stunning mechanic hence my description as an orphan. As for the others, I see Skill and Effect rolls as  subsets of all the rolls based off a particular Characteristic. They share the 9+x/5 DNA. 

 

Computers and Automatons have their PER roll based off that same 9+x/5 DNA. Lower INT just means a lower base roll. Aside from different bonuses purchased for different applications, your PER roll and your INT roll will always be the same . In a way, PER is the only holdover Figured Characteristic.

[schir1964]

11 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Computers and Automatons have their PER roll based off that same 9+x/5 DNA. Lower INT just means a lower base roll. Aside from different bonuses purchased for different applications, your PER roll and your INT roll will always be the same . In a way, PER is the only holdover Figured Characteristic.

I'm probably mistaken on that then. I just thought I remembered and example of a computer with a program to sense something (thinking it didn't have INT but maybe it did).

[Stonewild]

Strength shows up all over the place.  In heroic, Strength is qualifier for using some combat items.  Strength can add extra damage from the item.  Strength can be used to resist some effects like entangle. 

 

On a side note: Just remove the characteristics and keep the individual effects?  

Taking away some calculations from some characteristics, seems to have made characteristics superfluous and confusing.  The whole point of characteristics was for them to determine calculated effects.  Selectively removing these effects for balance, is confusing.   What would an effect only character sheet look like?  

[Sean Waters]

16 hours ago, Stonewild said:

Strength for damage is such a part of my gaming experience, I have a hard time imagining any other way.  Yet, champions seems bent on removing calculations based on stats.  Wonder what that would look like?  Strength only helping skill check rolls and not used for damage rolls.  Like ego resisting mental attacks, use strength for Breaking entangles, resisting grabs,  and such.   

 

More strength would cause more damage but you would have to be able to apply the force some other way than a punch.  A punch is about momentum not simply about raw strength unless the target is immobile and you can apply all of that strength.

 

What this is actually all leading to, I suppose, is that Strength is extremely under-priced for the utility.  It should cost 1.5 to 2 points per point, even decoupled as it is in 6E.

16 hours ago, Spence said:

I'm actually confused.

 

Strength has a skill roll and a damage/effect roll.  Just like all the other attributes.  I normally play and read 5thR so I checked 6th. 

 

Right there it was.  A strength skill roll and then a roll for effect.  I do the same with all the attributes as they come up. 

 

 

What it says is that the way you do it is roll damage and count Body but in some cases it might be quicker to roll 9+STR/5 with the better margin of success winning.  I find having more than one way of doing things to be slower, generally.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yes, STR should cost more based on all it does in 6th but was not because then it would break every brick ever made.

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

More strength would cause more damage but you would have to be able to apply the force some other way than a punch.  A punch is about momentum not simply about raw strength unless the target is immobile and you can apply all of that strength.

 

As I previously stated, In Hero we call this HA, Martial Arts, or Skill Levels or maybe just knowing how to use that extra STR comes part and parcel with it.

 

2 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

What this is actually all leading to, I suppose, is that Strength is extremely under-priced for the utility.  It should cost 1.5 to 2 points per point, even decoupled as it is in 6E.

 

STR is fine just as it is. Most of it's uses are in combat or near combat situations. The other Characteristics see more use outside of combat and we tend to undervalue noncombat Skills because overuse makes roleplaying  more mechanical and less creative.

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yes, STR should cost more based on all it does in 6th but was not because then it would break every brick ever made.

 

 

I don't think Lifting and Carrying come up enough make STR as pricey as DEX. Figured Characteristic and Leaping being gone leaves STR pretty balanced. I value being able to talk a king from starting a war or figuring out the code to stop the nuclear countdown as just as valuable as rescuing civilians from a collapsed building. As always YMMV.

 

And yes, legacy is very important here. It wouldn't break just the Bricks . Every hand to hand martial artist and melee weapon wielder is affected by this.   

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I don't think Lifting and Carrying come up enough make STR as pricey as DEX

 

 

I agree, but since damage is also wrapped into it, then it starts to be a problem.  But you're right.  Properly played, Presence is extremely powerful and it has incredible combat and non combat impact so if that's our standard it should cost more, too.  Especially since COM got folded into it.

[Sean Waters]

10 hours ago, schir1964 said:

....

 

As far as the Perception Roll my opinion is that roll exists outside of INT. You can have  a perception roll without INT. I think there are actually examples of that with Automatons and Computers that have no INT but still have a Perception Roll depending on what they designed to do.

....

 

Absolutely: Perception is a complicated thing, but it can be simplified.  In reality it is two things:

 

1. the ability to actually perceive something.  No matter how smart I am I can not actually see if there's no light.

2. the ability to attach significance to something you have perceived.  I might be able to hear the slowly rising background hum, but I have no idea that means the reactor is going critical.  Perhaps red lights and a klaxon next time?

 

The first is dealt with by way of the normal and enhanced senses you get or can buy in game, the second is where intelligence seems to matter, but it probably doesn't.  Intelligence is not the same as knowledge.  If you study something then your native Intelligence helps you study better, retain more and apply that knowledge to situations but if you don't have the requisite knowledge then being generally smart probably won't help: that disturbing slithering sound is actually the harmless wide snake, not the terrifyingly aggressive and deadly narrow snake, but you don't know that because your degrees are in astrophysics and set theory.  

 

Perception is the ability to, well, should be the ability to realise that something is amiss.  You can be smart and not pick up on the obvious (a common trope) or have animal level intelligence but still know when it is time to get out of Dodge.  Perception should therefore be a General Skill IMO, starting at 11- for which you can substitute appropriate knowledge or professional skills that apply.  That makes KS and PS more useful in a game to game setting.  Danger Sense could also usefully sub in if the situation called for it.  If you are specifically looking for the thing that is amiss, you are not distracted and can (actually) perceive it then you probably won't need a roll at all. A simple 'no Intelligence' computer programme can tell if there's something on the camera that shouldn't be, so is always going to succeed in a 'perception check' unless you can find somewhat to misdirect or distract it.

 

The ability to do the Sherlock thing, draw valid conclusions from apparently limited data is something else again.  I am not sure how to handle that because it is a bit of an 'editor power': it is there mainly as a plot device and would be tiresome to have to GM if a PC had it.  You could, I suppose, have an INT based Observation skill, or a limited form of Pre/Postcognition that allows you to make connections that other's can not see.

 

Don't like that though because when I write a deep and involved plot I want the players to gather clues and put them together, not just roll low.

[Sean Waters]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

As I previously stated, In Hero we call this HA, Martial Arts, or Skill Levels or maybe just knowing how to use that extra STR comes part and parcel with it.

 

I do have a passing familiarity with the concept, but the point I was flailing to make is that Strength is a measure of force not momentum.  Indestructecon is a powerful robot that can lift over 50 tons and can tear tanks apart but it does not do so quickly.  It does not punch through the armour, it grabs it and applies force.  Slowly.  The armour tears, such is the power of Indestructecon.

 

Shalamar, on the other hand is not strong.  If Shalamar were to grasp both ends of a thin steel bar, Shalamar would struggle to bend it.  Shalamar can lift a full beer keg, but probably not two of them, at least not for long.  Shalamar is quick though and can punch so fast the blow lands like a 76.2mm tank shell and can burst through tank armour.  Hopefully Shalamar is wearing something that prevents Shalamar's hands turning to jelly when Shalamar does that.

 

Krondite is both strong and fast and can tear armour apart or tear through it.

 

In combat, Shalamar is more effective that Indestructecon because Shalamar does not need to grab a target or wedge it into a corner where it cant move.

 

In a situation where a building has collapsed, Indescructecon can hold the roof up and bend steel I-Beams to rescue people.  Shalamar, if Shalamar was not immobile under a pile of rubble, could punch through those I-Beams but that would probably bring the whole unstable structure crashing down and kill everyone.

 

Krondite is great in combat and great in dangerous rescue situations, but paid more points to be more versatile.

 

You see where I'm going with this?

 

[Sean Waters]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

I don't think Lifting and Carrying come up enough make STR as pricey as DEX. Figured Characteristic and Leaping being gone leaves STR pretty balanced.

 

OK, why is DEX so expensive?  DEX skill levels cost more than INT or PRE skill levels, at least they do now, but that's mainly because we falsely value DEX skills more.  They have some combat applicability, but not that much, especially in a superhero game and being able to go first in combat is actually of relatively limited use unless you are One Punch Man.  Anyway, it is not a scaling thing.  If 1.2 points come from the boost to DEX skills and 0.8 points come from the increased 'initiative' and you bought 30 points, you spend 24 points on getting the first hit in, which is a complete waste of 8 points if the next highest DEX is 20.  DEX used to control Speed and Combat Value and only cost 3 points.  Now it doesn't and still costs 2?  And you're good with that?

 

Do me a favour...

 

Lifting and carrying.  Hmm.  Well maybe not carrying so much, but lifting: any well written run will have innumerable opportunities to apply strength in or out of combat: holding up that wall while the civilians run to safety should make you feel good and garner a round of applause and probably a medal, at least.  I know Quicksilver saves lots of people in Age of Apocalypse using speed, but if he's turned up 10 seconds later and people needed digging out, it would have been a very different movie.  Also try actually building that in Hero for a reasonable number of points without using a clearly broken interpretation of EDM.

 

Anyway, what about throwing (which is still linked to Strength): the ability to cause damage at range is pretty useful and normally costs at least +1/4.  Then there is AoE.  If I drop a bus on Dodgy McDodgeFace they'd better have bought Flying Dodge or I've hit them for all their vaunted DCV and Martial Arts.

 

Methinks the Gentleman doth protest too little.

[Grailknight]

55 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

 

I do have a passing familiarity with the concept, but the point I was flailing to make is that Strength is a measure of force not momentum.  Indestructecon is a powerful robot that can lift over 50 tons and can tear tanks apart but it does not do so quickly.  It does not punch through the armour, it grabs it and applies force.  Slowly.  The armour tears, such is the power of Indestructecon.

 

Shalamar, on the other hand is not strong.  If Shalamar were to grasp both ends of a thin steel bar, Shalamar would struggle to bend it.  Shalamar can lift a full beer keg, but probably not two of them, at least not for long.  Shalamar is quick though and can punch so fast the blow lands like a 76.2mm tank shell and can burst through tank armour.  Hopefully Shalamar is wearing something that prevents Shalamar's hands turning to jelly when Shalamar does that.

 

Krondite is both strong and fast and can tear armour apart or tear through it.

 

In combat, Shalamar is more effective that Indestructecon because Shalamar does not need to grab a target or wedge it into a corner where it cant move.

 

In a situation where a building has collapsed, Indescructecon can hold the roof up and bend steel I-Beams to rescue people.  Shalamar, if Shalamar was not immobile under a pile of rubble, could punch through those I-Beams but that would probably bring the whole unstable structure crashing down and kill everyone.

 

Krondite is great in combat and great in dangerous rescue situations, but paid more points to be more versatile.

 

You see where I'm going with this?

 

 

So you refute my point with perfect examples of what my point?

 

Indestructecon is a typical brick, Shalamar is a high powered martial artist  and Krondite is the pair combined. Plus the pure STR character is not superior in any of the situations. It is better than the pure martial artist at rescues but only that. What is the ratio of rescues to combats in your game that makes this use of STR so valuable that it's cost should be increased? Yes, a strong character can lift more than a weaker character but sometimes you need to break something right away and your brick is the worse choice for that.

 

 

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, Sean Waters said:

 

OK, why is DEX so expensive?  DEX skill levels cost more than INT or PRE skill levels, at least they do now, but that's mainly because we falsely value DEX skills more.  They have some combat applicability, but not that much, especially in a superhero game and being able to go first in combat is actually of relatively limited use unless you are One Punch Man.  Anyway, it is not a scaling thing.  If 1.2 points come from the boost to DEX skills and 0.8 points come from the increased 'initiative' and you bought 30 points, you spend 24 points on getting the first hit in, which is a complete waste of 8 points if the next highest DEX is 20.  DEX used to control Speed and Combat Value and only cost 3 points.  Now it doesn't and still costs 2?  And you're good with that?

 

Do me a favour...

 

Lifting and carrying.  Hmm.  Well maybe not carrying so much, but lifting: any well written run will have innumerable opportunities to apply strength in or out of combat: holding up that wall while the civilians run to safety should make you feel good and garner a round of applause and probably a medal, at least.  I know Quicksilver saves lots of people in Age of Apocalypse using speed, but if he's turned up 10 seconds later and people needed digging out, it would have been a very different movie.  Also try actually building that in Hero for a reasonable number of points without using a clearly broken interpretation of EDM.

 

Anyway, what about throwing (which is still linked to Strength): the ability to cause damage at range is pretty useful and normally costs at least +1/4.  Then there is AoE.  If I drop a bus on Dodgy McDodgeFace they'd better have bought Flying Dodge or I've hit them for all their vaunted DCV and Martial Arts.

 

Methinks the Gentleman doth protest too little.

 

Yes I'm fully in favor of DEX costing 2 points while STR is still 1 point.

 

As you said, DEX lets you go first, not just on the first segment but on every segment you share with your opponent. They have to react to you or you have the option to let them go first  and act strategically.

 

Agility Skills(DEX) are combat skills and can be used in combat time by design. That includes one of the most useful skills in the game, Breakfall, which can be used even after you've acted. Operating a vehicle falls under Combat Driving/Piloting. Agility Skills are useful in and out of Combat and that's why DEX costs more and levels with all Agility skills does also.

 

Back to STR, sure it's great to hold up the wall. Know what else is great? Talking down a suicide bomber in a shopping mall or picking a lock while hanging suspended from a wire or or decoding a computer countdown before the nuke goes off. Different characteristics for different heroic acts seems to work. STR in the first example is not more valuable than PRE in the second, DEX in the third or INT in the fourth. 

 

Quicksilver? Teleport or Running, UAA, AoE, Selective Target with increased mass, only vs targets in reach of the ground and that he can carry with his STR. SFX is running around to each target individually at superspeed. That should cover it without resorting to EDM.

 

Throwing? Well hope you bought some Skill Levels with that or you may have trouble hitting. Hopefully the battle field is filled with loose objects sturdy enough to do your full STR damage. And as for large objects, it only takes a 13 DEX to Dive for Cover 2 hexes with a 50/50 chance. Dodgy McDodgeface is probably a little better at it than a trained Normal.

[Sean Waters]

25 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

So you refute my point with perfect examples of what my point?

 

Indestructecon is a typical brick, Shalamar is a high powered martial artist  and Krondite is the pair combined. Plus the pure STR character is not superior in any of the situations. It is better than the pure martial artist at rescues but only that. What is the ratio of rescues to combats in your game that makes this use of STR so valuable that it's cost should be increased? Yes, a strong character can lift more than a weaker character but sometimes you need to break something right away and your brick is the worse choice for that.

 

 

 

Is.

 

No, Krondite is the typical brick.  The strength can be used for all the stuff that strength can currently be used for.  Lifting, throwing, punching.  Breaking stuff right away.  You see what happened there?

 

Indescructecon and Shalamar are a strong slow character who can lift stuff and do a lot of damage but only when they can apply leverage and a weak character with lots of MA or HtH Attack.

 

We have a way to do Shalamar, that's easy: low STR, plus extra damage from various sources.  We don't really have a way to do Indestructecon other than a custom limitation, which no one is ever going to bother with because Strength is so cheap and because the game does not encourage you to think that way.  Admittedly that is because most big muscly characters in comics and movies can hit hard.  Still, take a look at a small skilled boxer and a big, strong unskilled thug seeing who is going to win at the fairground punch ball machine (it's the little guy).

 

The point is that, and this tessellates nicely with the bit about DEX being comparatively too expensive, Strength in Hero (and to be fair, most games) is not actually a good representation of what strength is, it is a good representation of our channelled expectations.  Plus it is too cheap, which is the real problem here.

[Sean Waters]

2 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

Yes I'm fully in favor of DEX costing 2 points while STR is still 1 point.

 

As you said, DEX lets you go first, not just on the first segment but on every segment you share with your opponent. They have to react to you or you have the option to let them go first  and act strategically.

 

Agility Skills(DEX) are combat skill and can be used in combat time by design. That includes one of the most useful skills in the game, Breakfall, which can be used even after you've acted. Operating a vehicle falls under Combat Driving/Piloting. Agility Skills are useful in and out of Combat and that's why DEX costs more and levels with all Agility skills does also.

 

Back to STR, sure it's great to hold up the wall. Know what else is great? Talking down a suicide bomber in a shopping mall or picking a lock while hanging suspended from a wire or or decoding a computer countdown before the nuke goes off. Different characteristics for different heroic acts seems to work. STR in the first example is not more valuable than PRE in the second, DEX in the third or INT in the fourth. 

 

Quicksilver? Teleport or Running, UAA, AoE, Selective Target with increased mass, only vs targets in reach of the ground and that he can carry with his STR. SFX is running around to each target individually at superspeed. That should cover it without resorting to EDM.

 

Throwing? well hope you bought some Skill Levels with that or you may have trouble hitting. Hopefully the battle field is filled with loose objects sturdy enough to all your full STR damage. And as for large object, it only takes a 13 DEX to Dive for Cover 2 hexes with a 50/50 chance. Dodgy McDodgeface is probably a little better at it than a trained Normal.

 

OK. It lets you decide who goes first.  Whoop-de-do.  You don't get more goes, not anymore.  I'm not saying that's not useful, I am saying it's not that useful, plus you are ignoring my bit about economies of scale, which was a good bit.  If you but 30 DEX and I don't buy any extra, that's 40 point's I've got to whup your ass and if you buy 30 points and I buy 29, that's only 2 point's I've got on you.  High DEX is only really useful if it's highest DEX.  Sure everyone gets to whale on the slow brick, but that extra 20Pd/20ED is going to help, right?  Then Brick takes out one of the opponents because they don't have an extra 20PD and we rinse and repeat.  Maybe he takes out the fastest opponent out of spite.  Or, right, and this would be a real laugh: you have 30 DEX and 4 SPD and I have 10 DEX and 6 SPD.  How we doing now?  You hit first, I hit 50% more.  Or +2OCV and +2DCV.  You get the picture.

 

I accept that Combat Driving and Breakfall are useful, to an extent, in combat, but they are really not so useful out of combat, pretty much by definition.  Analyze, Concealment, Deduction, Disguise, Lipreading, Mimicry, Paramedics, Security Systems and Tactics, Acting, Bribery, Charm, Oratory and Persuasion all have serious combat applications (as do Perception and PRE attacks) AND they (and all the other skills derived from INT and PRE) have serious non-combat skills related to Role Playing. 

 

Great, you picked the lock but set the alarm off.  Now they know we're here.

 

As for taking down a suicide bomber in a shopping mall, the reason snipers go first isn't because they are are so quick and champing at the bit, it is because someone else is keeping the suicide bomber talking while they line up the shot.

 

'Decoding a computer countdown' would almost certainly be an INT based task.  There's no prizes for doing it quickly, if you don't do it right.  As my wife keeps telling me.

 

Sure you can build a way to do the Quicksilver thing, but you'd probably also need indirect and some sort of improved perception.  AoE's Running won't get people out of closed rooms unless you want to get mush back and AoE Teleport requires you to be able to shift enough mass.  Oh and you'd have to snag everyone because selective, and there's always going to be some bad rolls.  Build it and see what it costs: unless it's a slot in a multipower the raw cost will be prohibitive and, even if it is, good luck scraping it in under the real point cap.  Anyway, the point about Quicksilver wasn't that fast is not good but that strong can also be just as good: it is situational.  Fast is not always better, strong is not always better.  More to the point fast is not better twice as much as strong.  Also, I suppose, DEX wouldn't really help: the GM is unlikely to say the house blows up on DEX 29 and you are DEX 30 unless they are going it for dramatic effect and to make you feel that ridiculous point investment was worth it.

 

Throwing does not require skill levels.  If I can hit you with a punch I can hit you with a rock for probably only -1 or -2.  Of it there is a handy telegraph pole (which there often is) at no penalty at all.  Or, like I say, a bus.  Big penalty, aiming for DCV 3, and it probably does not matter if I miss by a little.  Or I don't throw it and just flip it on you.

 

I mean you CAN dive for cover, but that's your next go gone, right, so your fancy DEX isn't going to help with your next attack and anyone can abort to a defensive action whatever their DEX (so DEX is irrelevant to timing) and sure it allows you to dive further, but sometimes you are going to roll a 16 and then you are under a bus, literally.  I appreciate that is only 5% of the time, but the dice can be vindictive.  Even if you make it, you are prone, and at half DCV and can't use Acrobatics or Breakfall to avoid the half DCV or get up until your next go, so let's hope I'm alone.  Maybe I was using Acting to make you think I was going to splat you with a bus but I was just trying to get you to Dive For Cover so you'd be easier to hit.  I can throw a bus that far, and the points I put in PRE come in real handy.  In combat.

 

If StrongCharacter is under a bus, just shrug it off and carry on.  Not that you could lift a bus.

 

To be absolutely clear, I am not saying that a point of DEX is not useful, but I am saying there is absolutely no way it is twice as useful as a point of STR, if anything the opposite, and almost certainly no more useful than a point of INT or PRE. Certainly not in the context of the wider game and not really even in 'just' combat.

 

 

[Grailknight]

Notice anything about your replies?

 

Not a single example of STR being awesome for anything outside of damage.

 

Your first just basically says that this Character with Limited STR isn't as good as a regular brick or a martial artist except in the one area his STR isn't Limited. It's not really good rule analysis to insist that the general rule is in error because the special case requires special consideration. Indestructecon saves points because he's not as good. To me, that's evidence of the RAW working as intended.

 

For your second, here's the scenario. 

 

Higher DEX allows A to go first and he hits B. B take a little damage but he's knocked back. If B doesn't have that "useful to an extent" Breakfall skill, he is now prone and must spend a 1/2 move to get up and attack from where he is or if he can't, move back to A and wait for his next segment to attack. A goes first again and repeats the process over and over. Now it's possible that A will miss or that B can beat A at range. B could Block and go first on the next segment after his Block succeeds(if it does) and that block only reverses the order once, at the cost of not attacking. Whereas with Breakfall ,you keep all your options open. So having just a single point of DEX advantage dictates much of the combat strategy. I can't comment on all the scenarios that you listed without full sheets, there are too many variables to keep the goalpost stable.

 

As for the other comparisons, you go out of the way to play up, the out of combat uses of INT and PRE Skills while:

 

Not giving DEX Skills credit for being useful in combat and just as useful out of combat. 

 

You don't list anything for STR which is where we started this conversation.

 

Even if DEX is overpriced, you've made no case that STR is. Especially not one good enough to change the costs of every melee character with a STR higher than 10. In your future , all high STR characters would need an exemption or exception from any Active Point Limits because a 60 STR would be a 90 or 120 point power Active Cost(That free 10 STR at start has got to accounted for somewhere.)

 

I do agree that STR may be the best characteristic of the base Characteristics(SPD, OCV and DCV are top 3 overall), but only because DEX is 2 points while STR is 1 point. The legacy of Hero damage gives it that edge. But I can't see it as overpriced because it's out of combat applications are so narrow compared to the other characteristics. We may have to agree to disagree. 

[Stonewild]

 what strength is, it is a good representation of our channelled expectations.  Plus it is too cheap, which is the real problem here.

 

This.   

 

Strength is the only characteristic that can with all the character points added to it would allow the toon to destroy a city.   Do the city up right and on the cheap.  310 point strength toon could have a pretty good time in the old town tonight.  A 310 intelligence toon would really enjoy the library while noticing the city turned into rubble.  Same cost?    

[Greywind]

1 hour ago, Stonewild said:

 Strength is the only characteristic that can with all the character points added to it would allow the toon to destroy a city.   Do the city up right and on the cheap.  310 point strength toon could have a pretty good time in the old town tonight.  A 310 intelligence toon would really enjoy the library while noticing the city turned into rubble.  Same cost?    

 

Only if both the player and GM are idiots.

[Spence]

On 11/28/2021 at 5:09 PM, schir1964 said:

What effect roll do you have for CON, INT?

SPD?

STUN?

END?

 

Late to the response 

 

Many points were already addressed up above, such as STUN and END being inherently different than an actual attribute.  with 6th Ed divorcing the secondarys from the primaries they can sometimes blend.

 

But as for the attributes and skill roll versus effect roll. 

Here is an example from an old Star Hero game.

The setting was in an old scifi universe such as Heinlein juveniles or Del Ray from the 50/60's.  

The players ship was running from a hostile spacecraft trying to reach the jump limit and escape to hyperspace but their Astrocomp was damaged.  One of the players wanted try and calculate the jump manually using slide-rule and calculation wheels (the way most navigators did their thing pre-PC and GPS). 

The GM assigned the task a "INT BODY" and the player would role his Astrogator (INT) skill with each success allowing him to roll his INT in damage dice based on how good the roll was.  In this case it was 1-3 D6 rolled for Body.  But a failed roll would have him roll negative damage dice, as the furiously calculating Astrogator noticed an error and had to back track.

It allowed ongoing tension as the Astrogator frantically tried to calculate the escape while rest of the players held off the enemy missiles.

 

I have used that method of a "skill/attribute" Body for a wide range of items for timed drama or extended tasks.  Far better than a simple pass/fail skill roll.

 

I wish I could remember where the idea came from, but it has been years. 

[Stonewild]

22 hours ago, Spence said:

have used that method of a "skill/attribute" Body for a wide range of items for timed drama or extended tasks.  Far better than a simple pass/fail skill roll.

I like it.  Especially for skills where multiple rolls are more fun.  Solving a complex puzzle, etc.  Problem Complexity can be represented by the defense, and body of the puzzle.  Multiple players can work on the same puzzle.  The heroes can roll body until they bring down the wall of confusion with intelligence / skill rolls.  

[Duke Bushido]

On 11/28/2021 at 8:09 PM, schir1964 said:

What effect roll do you have for CON,

 

 

.i havent commented much here as I have nothing to add, but this is something I have done for some time; it seems to help d20 players intothe system.

 

I use CON rolls against non_exotic poisonings, tainted water, etc, or as a gateway to staying on your feet at 0 STUN, and against possible infections.  Sometimes to award a pip or two of END when recovering, and sometimes a Pip or two of BODY when healing (normal healing).

 

I also use them to benefit first aid rolls, etc.

 

 

On 11/28/2021 at 8:09 PM, schir1964 said:

 

INT?

 

The INT roll habs existed since the first edition.  Its use has never changed.

 

 

 

 

On 11/28/2021 at 8:09 PM, schir1964 said:

SPD?

 

Tie breaker in SPD order or when I am not one-hundred peexent certain that a character could realistically dodge something.  Also used similar to (but inferior to) fast draw.

 

 

On 11/28/2021 at 8:09 PM, schir1964 said:

STUN?

 

To remain standing _and able to function_ while at zero STUN:  I have to pull that lever to deactivate the death way and save the moon colony!

 

Okay. Make a STUN check to see if you can stay on your feet long enough to do that.

 

 

On 11/28/2021 at 8:09 PM, schir1964 said:

END?

 

Out of END and want To keep going?  Make an END roll to see if you are going to burn STUN (book legal version) or go to negative END. (House rule, so I dont expect anyone acknowledge this one)