Spatial Awareness for LOS attacks

[Laser T. Swift]

I have a player that wants to be blind but have spatial awareness (SA).  Can he make attacks that require LOS?  It says under SA that they can also "see" through walls so if he can use LOS via SA does that mean he can use his LOS attack through walls?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Laser

[unclevlad]

Normally, no;   the attack will typically interact with the wall first.  However, some attacks don't...attacks with Indirect that allows the attacker to alter the point of origin of the power would be an example.

 

Look at the section discussing LOS attacks on 6E1 148, under Mental Powers.  

[Laser T. Swift]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Normally, no;   the attack will typically interact with the wall first.  However, some attacks don't...attacks with Indirect that allows the attacker to alter the point of origin of the power would be an example.

 

Look at the section discussing LOS attacks on 6E1 148, under Mental Powers.  

Sorry, I should have explained that better.  He is using a mental attack (mental illusion) so there is nothing to hit the wall.  Would it then work?

[Grailknight]

No, Mental Los can only be established through direct LOS or Mind Scan. There are many debates about this on the boards and a reasonable case can be made for such things but it is contrary to RAW.  Basically it enables a broken character concept, the unassailable Mentalist.

[unclevlad]

34 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

No, Mental Los can only be established through direct LOS or Mind Scan. There are many debates about this on the boards and a reasonable case can be made for such things but it is contrary to RAW.  Basically it enables a broken character concept, the unassailable Mentalist.

 

While I agree with the potential problem, it DOES work, by RAW.

 

Page 148, emphasis mine:

 

Quote

LINE OF SIGHT
Mental Powers do not have the standard Range (10m x Base Points) — a character can use them to attack any character within his Line Of Sight (LOS). LOS means the character has direct perception of or can perceive any part of the target
with a Targeting Sense. A character can establish LOS with any Targeting Sense. The Range Modifier does not apply to Mental Powers.

Don’t read the term “line of sight” literally. First, a character can establish LOS with Targeting Senses other than Sight. Second, he cannot attack any speck on the horizon with his Mental Powers just because he can perceive it. He must at least
recognize the target as a being with a mind of some sort that’s susceptible to mental attack before he can attack it with Mental Powers

 

The limitation wouldn't apply just because it's looking through a wall.  

 

Besides...would you allow it if the character simply bought Penetrating on his Sight?  It's a ton cheaper.

 

I agree that it's a build that shouldn't generally be allowed, but it absolutely is RAW.

 

OP, read the rules about Mental Powers and LOS.  Your questions are answered there directly.

[dmjalund]

Although he might not be able to identify people who they see through Spatial Awareness, so there may be penalties to target

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Sorry, I should have explained that better.  He is using a mental attack (mental illusion) so there is nothing to hit the wall.  Would it then work?

 

As Unclevlad pointed out: yes, it will.  However other senses are distorted and made problematic by circumstances that sight does not suffer from (electrical fields from the wires in the wall, etc) so as a GM you can always state that no, you cannot get a good target on that guy in this situation if it makes sense in the game.  Kind of like "too much dust in the air to see that target well enough to use telepathy on them."

 

NON mental powers bought with LOS do not gain this advantage, they must also buy indirect to ignore barriers (or shoot through the barrier).

[unclevlad]

Not sure I agree there, CRT.  

 

Quote

First, a character can establish LOS with Targeting Senses other than Sight. Second, he cannot attack any speck on the horizon with his Mental Powers just because he can perceive it. He must at least recognize the target as a being with a mind of some sort that’s susceptible to mental attack before he can attack it with Mental Powers

 

So, yeah, what you're saying may be correct, but this suggests the bar to clear isn't particularly high.  

 

Side thought...LOS isn't significant for this discussion.  Power doesn't need it.  The key aspect is the penetrating nature of Spatial.  You *can* buy the Mental Illusions with Normal Range (base points x10 meters)...and even Limited Range on top of that, if you want.  It'll still work when you're a few rooms away from your victim.

 

But this is also why people have commented about the untouchable mentalist, when you start combining mental powers with a penetrating sense.  

[LoneWolf]

It will work for a mental power, but he may need to buy ranged for spatial awareness.   Spatial Awareness does not include ranged.  I asked in the rules forum and Steve Long stated it did not, but many sense groups do include range.  So, depending on the sense group the spatial awareness belongs to it might get it from that, but if it is a unique sense, it probably does not.   

[Laser T. Swift]

Thanks for all the input everyone.  I will have to talk to my player about this and see if I want to let it in the game.

[unclevlad]

21 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

It will work for a mental power, but he may need to buy ranged for spatial awareness.   Spatial Awareness does not include ranged.  I asked in the rules forum and Steve Long stated it did not, but many sense groups do include range.  So, depending on the sense group the spatial awareness belongs to it might get it from that, but if it is a unique sense, it probably does not.   

 

True, but if he's buying it as a mental power, it inherits Ranged.  And how often do you see a Mental Flash in most games?  There are some corner cases, but most of the time, it's best to buy spatial as mental or unusual;  hearing group has active sonar, sight group can go with penetrative.

[LoneWolf]

Mental Flash is pretty rare, but invisibility and darkness to mental are probably more common.

 

If it is an unusual sense, they would have to buy ranged.     

[Pattern Ghost]

On 7/29/2022 at 3:01 PM, LoneWolf said:

Spatial Awareness does not include ranged.

 

Going all the way back to 4th Edition, this is RAW accurate, but it's a little counter-intuitive, especially since the description (again from 4th and carried through to 6th) compares it to passive sonar and seeing through walls. I guess that begs the question of how much range do you get for "no range"? Would that be just the hex the character is in or the hexes bordering the hex the character in (which isn't exactly no range)? How much area do you allow Spatial Awareness to cover as GMs? I've never seen the power actually used in game by anyone or used it myself, so now I'm curious.