creating a HERO game

[Doc Democracy]

My lockdown proposal to myself was that I would use HERO to create a game.  I wanted to do a powered by HERO type thing that I could share with friends and possibly, if it was good enough, offer here.

 

My God, it was hard.  It was hard to sit down and really put the necessary thought into it.

 

It was hard to do writing.

 

It was hard to balance things up.

 

It was hard to decide how much of the system to cover up and how much flex to leave in there.

 

It was so hard, I am starting again for the fourth time.  All that effort will inform this next one but it has shown me something.  It has shown that I need to hide virtually all of the flexibility.  To have something people can pick up and play, the character creation needs to be almost 95% done already.  The previous three have floundered on me trying to make decisions easy for complete newbies and it branches out so far that I end up with something possibly more complex than fill HERO but with less agency. 😕

 

I plan to have a bunch of cookie cutter superhero templates that players can add SFX to and accessorise with secret identity stuff, colour abilities and perhaps a signature move/ability.  Each template will have at least one fully formed character derived from the template to demo what can be done.

 

It will be a UK based WWII game with a Campaign premise and three or four scenarios (I have run these scenarios with my home group so they are in playable form for me - lots of derail needed for others).  I will outline all my design decisions as a document,  the whys rather than the whats of what I did).

 

I plan to bounce things on here as I do this.  Big broad issues rather than the build details etc.

 

My first consideration has been archetypes for the templates.  As this will be Golden Age focused, my current list is

 

Masked adventurer (e.g., Batman, Sandman, Plastic Man)

Gadgeteer (e.g.,  Iron Man, Blue beetle, Mr Terrific, Green Arrow)

Super-soldier/flagsuit (e.g., Captain America, Hourman, Uncle Sam)

Alien being (e.g., Superman, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman)

Bearer of occult/mythological artefact (e.g., Hawkman, Dr Fate, Zatara)

Speedster  (e.g., Flash, Johnny Quick) 

 

I plan to have three basic builds (these builds will modify CV, defences, and base damage scores) that I build out to each Archetype, possibly offering a build per Archetype (which would push this out to 18 templates with associated characters).

 

Is there anything I am missing that is a MUST HAVE?

 

Doc

 

PS: this has a big potential to be a pipedream and never realised, I can see my biggest opportunity to have gotten it done was in the past two years, the next best time will be when I retire.  But until then, gonna keep tinkering and writing as if it is real life thing.

[Leitz]

I've done stuff like this in some games; bringing new players into a "create your own character concept" can be tough on both the DM and the players. One thing that might help is to let their characters be point-fluid for a few scenarios. You can either allow point reallocation for a few games, so that they can transform the cookie cuttter to their own mental image, or declare them "new at this", and of slightly less points. Maybe hold back 15 points, and they discover new ways to do stuff so that the points can be spent. The more you can get the players interested in their PCs, the more fun the game will be for everyone.

 

[assault]

Many years ago now... meaning before 6e happened, I did an analysis of Golden Age characters. This involved reading all the Golden Age comics I could lay my hands on.

The main conclusion I drew was that most Golden Age characters were incredibly cookie cutter, and that the key difference wasn't their skills or characteristics, but their powers.

So the differences between Batman, Sandman, Green Arrow and Green Lantern were those between the Utility Belt, the Gas Gun (and mask), a bow and fancy arrows, and an Awesome Magic Ring. Otherwise, they were pretty much interchangeable.

Better yet, in their first adventures, the differences between those weren't all that significant in point terms.

Ultimately, I built them all from one single template. I called it "Generico". I even had disadvantages based on this generic character.

It was surprising to me how well this worked. Yes, Superman and the Flash didn't look much like Generico once I had finished with them, but it was still a useful starting point.

The only major character I couldn't work out was the Spectre - but he was a notable outlier even back then.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 8/28/2022 at 6:41 AM, Doc Democracy said:

Is there anything I am missing that is a MUST HAVE?

 

Are there any missing classics?

 

The Invaders? I see Cap and Namor, as well as Union Jack and Spitfire.  Which category would the Human Torch fall into?  Alien being?

 

JSA was Hawkman, Flash, Hourman (not sure he's a FlagSuit), Dr. Fate, Green Lantern, Atom, Sandman, Spectre, w/ Superman and Batman honorary members.  They're all in there somehow.

 

We then got Wonder Woman (SuperSoldier flagsuit), Johnny Thunder (mystic artifact?), Dr. Mid-Nite, Starman (poor fit?), Black Canary

 

7 Soldiers of Victory? No real issues with any of Star-Spangled Kid, Vigilante, Crimson Avenger, Green Arrow or Shining Knight.

 

I think I see a few issues, mostly minor.

 

First, some characters were magical, not just bearers of magical artifacts (Zatara and Spectre; arguably Dr. Fate).

 

Second, some (Starman) had pseudoscientific artifacts.

 

Easy fix - we need a "Mystic" and modify the Bearer to "Occult/Mythological/Superscientific Artifact.

 

Second, not all classify neatly.  What makes Green Arrow more gadgeteer than Batman's utility belt and Sandman's Gas Gun?  Is Dr. Mid-Nite a Masked Adventurer or a Gadgeteer?  I'm not sure we actually had many "gadgeteers" in the sense of a character who would whip up new gizmos on the fly so much as that many Masked Adventurers carried gadgets (either a bunch of them, Batman & Green Arrow, or signature gadgets, Sandman, Dr. Mid-Nite).

 

So if you split "bearer of artifact" and "Mystic/Occultist" and eliminated Gadgeteer (merged into masked adventurer), you'd still have six.

 

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

Thanks for the responses, guys.  Appreciated.  While I have decided on a new broad approach I have not settled on the details.

 

I think Hugh is right about the split and ditching gadgeteer.  I would like a category to include Thing and the Storms and considering whether I should ditch alien or speedster.

 

considering extra-terrestrial instead of alien and perhaps something like Elemental (which could embody Speed, Fire etc).

 

Doc

[steriaca]

Note that "alien" can also be thought as "stranger". They don't actually have to be from outer space to be a stranger, only someone from a place isolated from the rest of the world, or merely a place which at that time was relatively unknown to our area (hench various aisan or asian trained heroes...ok more aisan trained guys who blink when someone mentions something which we consider common and say 'what is it?'.)

[Hugh Neilson]

I think viewing "Alien" as "from somewhere else and different from Human" works.  Is that Venus and Uncle Sam?  Perhaps Robotman?

 

It seems like you need a catchall category for the "unusual powers" characters.  The Ray, Doll Man and the Human Bomb; the Human Torch; Plastic Man; a Speedster.  Basically, "a human with some alteration providing super-powers".

 

[pedant]Iron Man, Martian Manhunter ("MM"), the Storms and the Thing are all silver-age, not golden age[/pedant]

 

I do recall a suggestion many years back that MM was the Silver Age Spectre.  The Spectre could do any number of strange things using magic.  But Silver Age was more Sci Fi, so MM has Alien Powers instead of Magic Powers.

 

So we might get:

 

Masked adventurer (a human, however highly trained, possibly using a lot of gadgets)

Augmented Human/Super-soldier/flagsuit (an enhanced human - better, stronger, faster, but with no "inhuman" powers)

Outsider (whether Atlantean, extra terrestrial or other dimensional - who's the character, Johnny Thunder or the Thunderbolt?)

Bearer of artifact (whether mystical or scientific, so Green Lantern, Starman)

Mystic (magic user like Zatara, Dr. Fate, Spectre)

Gifted?  Unique? Altered Human? (human with a special power, like Plastic Man, Flash, Ray, Human Torch)

 

There's some crossover - Cap has his Shield, so elements of Super-Soldier and of Bearer of Artifact with the shield, for example; is Aquaman an Outsider or Gifted?; but the player simply picks the predominant element for the base template and customizes the rest.  With three templates, you have some room for variety (e.g. a Masked Adventurer with no gadgets like the Atom; one with a signature gadget like Green Arrow and one who has an array of secondary gadgets like Batman or Sandman; an Outsider from another planet, one from a lost culture and one from another time - at least one with natural powers and one with gear, so Superman, Aquaman and Shining Knight).

[assault]

The other issue is: what are the actual differences between the templates? There's no benefit in multiplying categories that aren't actually distinct.

[Leitz]

In the dark pre-history of RPGs, they seem to bloom from the mix of wargames and fiction. In a wargame, you just need to consider "offense, defense, and movement". Pretty much everything else is "shtick"; the color and look of things. With fiction, readers want to identify with the hero of the story. Players pick a hero archetype, for example "misfit", "grizzled old timer", or "prodify", and that may modify their shtick.

 

The real question isn't "What has been done?", but "What do the players want?" The Golden Age comics are great, but they were written to a readership culture that no longer exists. Even dealing with historical events, like WWII, needs to deal with how the player's culture wants to game.

 

The other recommendation I'd make is don't overthink this. I planned one campaign for six months, and some miscommunications led to the campaign's demise. I much prefer to sketch out a basic idea, put in some flavor, and game it a couple of times. If players keep going then I put more into it.

[Doc Democracy]

21 hours ago, assault said:

The other issue is: what are the actual differences between the templates? There's no benefit in multiplying categories that aren't actually distinct.

 

In my head, and that is the only place it exists, the idea is about options.  Each template will have different options to flesh out the character.

 

The complexity, for me, is providing enough meaningful choices for players to provide sufficient diversity of characters and keep the decision making more entertaining than confusing.

 

I am hoping to find ways of choosing a few paths, based on broad brush concepts, that allow a character to quickly be put together.

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

@Doc Democracy, how are you going to handle skills? As you know Hero can have a large skill list. Are you going to have a smaller list but more broadly defined?  For example, Deduction represents detective skill instead of 3 or so related skills that a Detective would have?

[Hugh Neilson]

On 8/29/2022 at 3:30 PM, assault said:

The other issue is: what are the actual differences between the templates? There's no benefit in multiplying categories that aren't actually distinct.

 

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

In my head, and that is the only place it exists, the idea is about options.  Each template will have different options to flesh out the character.

 

I am thinking back on Mutants and Masterminds templates - they were not anything that a player could not have constructed, and they had considerable crossover.  But they were easy to grab, customize, tinker a bit if desired and be ready to play the game.  That is EXACTLY what new Hero players need in a game Powered by Hero, so I think your approach is ideal, Doc.  Maybe you build the templates and decide there's one missing, or one that's not all that distinct, and change the overall structure, but the template characters with "customize here" is, in my opinion, the right approach.

 

Extrapolated to Fantasy, this could follow a path like:

 

  - Set your characteristics, using X points;

  - Choose a race and add its special race features (maybe some skills, special/magic powers, characteristic adjustments, etc. and a Complication or two);

  - Choose a profession, and add some Profession features;

  - Choose this many skills from a list for your Profession;

  - Select one or more special abilities from your Profession choices (some available to all professions, others not, including SuperSkills, Combat Tricks, maybe bonus Movement, for sure Spells, etc.)

 - Now flesh out your remaining Complications, buy some gear and behold - good to go.

 

That's D&D - characteristics, race, class, skills, and feats, spells, etc.

 

And D&D provides a sample template character for each class further constraining choices to get up & running quickly.  [Oh, but no one buys that game, do they?]

[assault]

I mentioned that I think that Golden Age characters were very Cookie Cutter. Here are some of what I think are their common attributes.

All of them are two-fisted adventurers. The only exceptions are people like Rex Tyler (Hourman), who is useless outside his Hour of Power.

This means that they can have non-combat powers, or none at all, and still be effective. Air Wave is an example. Being able to make a phone call from anywhere is not a combat power – but he can still clean up a roomful of thugs.

There are degrees of effectiveness. Some blaster types placed less emphasis on fisticuffs, but were still ready to get stuck in. Others were basically brawlers with neat powers – Alan Scott (Green Lantern) is an example.
 

Mystics were typically brawlers too. (Zatara, etc.) These probably fall into the “less emphasis” category in most cases.

There are cases of characters with little justification for their combat skill. Many of these are women (Phantom Lady) or kids (most sidekicks other than Robin), but it also applies to many adult males.

It seems that being a Red Blooded American (or the equivalent) was enough.

Combat styles, even for trained fighters, were largely based on Boxing, Wrestling or simple Brawling. Judomaster was a Silver Age character, despite his stories being set during WW2.

This provides a basis for characteristic sets. Characters, without considering powers, grade from Teenage Sidekick to Heavyweight Champion of the World. Or, in other words, Robin to Wildcat. (Star-Spangled Kid to Stripesy, if you prefer.) All of these are viable player characters.

All should have Martial Arts (Comic Book style is appropriate), probably with a couple of additional Damage Classes. This allows the lower end characters to throw, say, 8 DC Offensive Strikes – probably the minimum necessary to be relevant.

There’s no great difference in other characteristics, once superpowers are ignored. “Normal” superheroic characteristic levels are fine.

Skill sets aren’t all that different either. Give them some basic detective stuff, and some specific things to make them Scientists, Mystics, Great Detectives and so on, and you are good. Batman was both a scientist and detective, and wasn’t unique in this, so you need to allow for that. On the other hand, even Batman’s “detective work” was pretty basic when you get down to what he actually did.

Starting skill sets don’t need to be overly complex.

Disadvantages/Complications can be tricky, but there are a lot of characters that can be “Secret Identity, Psych Limitation (usually some kind of Heroic Code), a Hunted, a DNPC (often a Romantic Interest, but not always) and not much else”. The frequency at which they occur would depend on the number of PCs in the group. (Higher for small groups, lower for large ones.)

 

I'm not sure that Super Patriot is even worth points - it's pretty much the default. Codes versus Killing tended to be flexible, especially in war zones. "Heroic Code" can cover them both.

Ultimately, the main difference between characters lies in their powers/equipment/whatever. (This includes characteristics beyond those I described above.) This will still be a large chunk of points that needs to be allocated, but is a less complex task than starting from scratch.

[Ninja-Bear]

@assault 8 DC Offensive Strike a Minimum? Nah, most Golden Age Supers seemed to have fought Normals/Thugs. I would just give Thugs a Phy Comp: x1 1/2 Stun from Heroes. Also even though depicted in the comics   A scant few martial arts was depicted, I wouldn’t hinder characters having appropriate martial arts. 

[assault]

I was trying to avoid house rules like the Physical Complication.

Also, most villains who were combat capable at all were mirror images of the heroes in terms of power level. Taking on the Joker with a 6 DC attack doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

My other assumption was that it was Champions, not Pulp Hero. Characters are built according to superheroic standards, even though some of them are at the bottom end of that.

[assault]

Robin was noted as learning Judo from Batman, but Comic Book martial arts simulates what GA heroes do perfectly adequately and is simpler than huge lists of maneuvers.

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, assault said:

Robin was noted as learning Judo from Batman, but Comic Book martial arts simulates what GA heroes do perfectly adequately and is simpler than huge lists of maneuvers.

Yeah I meant to point out that in the Original Ninja Hero at least 70% of Martial Arts were really covered by Comic Book Style. Just the sfx was different. I’m not advocating a huge list either. Just the possibility of having a Judo Joe or Karate Kid should be available.

 

My assumption too is that this is being built on Super heroic scale however I was also talking about how the majority of foes seem to be “normals” with a bunch of “agents”. I think 8DC Offensive Strike is fine but not as a minimum. 

[Hugh Neilson]

16 hours ago, assault said:

I mentioned that I think that Golden Age characters were very Cookie Cutter. Here are some of what I think are their common attributes.

All of them are two-fisted adventurers. The only exceptions are people like Rex Tyler (Hourman), who is useless outside his Hour of Power.

 

I recall an Hourman story (a reprint, likely in a DC 100 pager in the ‘70s) where he was knocked out/fell during his hour, resulting in that hourglass he wore being knocked over, and him being unable to know how much of his hour was left.

 

He went after the thugs, beat them up, then heard the clock chime and realized his hour had ended some time back.  So he was 2-fisted enough to beat a small group of thugs without the Miraclo boost.

 

If I were looking to directly align with the Golden Age material, virtually all characters would have good physical stats, and be capable of fighting a few thugs on their own with no special powers or abilities.  Then the superpowers would be added largely as an afterthought, or they’d get a bit more close-combat oomph if they had no other abilities.

 

As you note, Golden Age Green Lantern fought mainly with his fists.  The Ring did other things, like provide defenses and let him fly, but green power bolts or hands/fists were not his schtick before they brought him back in the ‘60s JLA/JSA tales.  Another one of those reprints, he identified the villain without his mask due to a imprint of his ring left in the villain's chin.

 

Exceptions like Superman, Captain Marvel, Namor or Robotman would exist, but they would not be the norm.

[Doc Democracy]

I have a very particular campaign in mind, so will be driving the templates towards meeting the needs of that campaign.

 

Have also fixed a few dials for a particular style of play.

 

All of that, currently is secondary to building the on-ramp for new GMs and players.  🙂

 

Appreciate all the comments.

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

@Doc Democracy, I would think it would behoove you to limit the limitations on Powers too. You’ve been around and I think a “technical” build for Bows and Arrows are a lit more complex than say a gun. But really how often do some of those minor limitations come into play? I feel Focus limitation can really cover a lot of those minor things.

[Ninja-Bear]

Also I would keep CSLs small in value and either very specific like +1 to Punch or very broad like +1 to all HtH.  Better defined bonus is easier for new players to pick up.

[Ninja-Bear]

Another thought is mental powers. If heroes and villains don’t buy up MD then a mentalist can really rule the game. However depending on points buying up really high MD when it wont come into play is a character tax.  

[Hotspur]

On 8/30/2022 at 9:39 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

@Doc Democracy

 

Fail. Please ignore.

[Ninja-Bear]

6 minutes ago, Hotspur said:

 

Fail. Please ignore.

No problem but I am intrigued now! 😁

[Doc Democracy]

7 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

No problem but I am intrigued now! 😁

My son is Hotspur, he has a passing interest in HERO and sometimes logs on, we use the same PC sometimes and last night I was browsing this thread and did not notice it was logged on as him.

 

I started to respond, realised it was not me, could not delete the post and was too tired to start again.

 

So it was my fail, not Hotspur's....

 

less intrigued?  🙂

I plan for the game to hide the vast majority of the numbers (builds available in a download for the HERO-nerdverse).

 

This should make presentation less cluttered but gives me the biggest headache in what to reveal, what to hide and how to present stuff.