How Do I...? Making Spirits Visible/Tangible

[Black Rose]

This one's a two-fer! I want to do two different builds. Both are intended to affect an area, so AoE is assumed:

Build 1: any spirits in an area are visible -- maybe Dispel Invisibility, or something with Images, but then there's a Detect issue...

Build 2: any spirits in an area are tangible -- maybe Dispel Desolidification, or a Naked Affects Physical World Advantage, but that gets expensive very quickly...

 

And if I go the Dispel route, do I need to Dispel the whole power? But if it's Inherent, that doesn't apply, does it?

 

Any thoughts?

[drunkonduty]

Would Suppress do the job? (Is Suppress still a thing in 6th ed?) Also, I suppose you'd need "affects desol" on the suppress desol.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, drunkonduty said:

Would Suppress do the job? (Is Suppress still a thing in 6th ed?) Also, I suppose you'd need "affects desol" on the suppress desol.

Yes, its still a thing. I think its folded under Drain though. 

[Ockham's Spoon]

The Drain/Suppress will work, but it is going to be expensive, esp. for AoE.  And if that fits your conception of the spell, that is good.  But if this is something that a cleric does to facilitate exorcism or something that is common in your world, you could consider putting a Limitation on the Invisibility and/or Desolid that spirits have "Doesn't work while affected by PRE attack from a cleric at the PRE +30 level" or the like.  That makes it much easier to bring the effect about if you want it to be a more utilitarian ability rather than an exception power that only a few can master.

[LoneWolf]

Dispel is probably the best route to go.  It is going to be expensive, but then getting rid of something primary defense that cost a lot of points should be expensive.  Since this is Fantasy Hero, you can probably put on a lot of limitations on it to reduce the cost some.

 

Don’t forget that desolidification requires you to define a special effect that does affect it.  It might be easier to use that instead of trying to get rid of it.  You could use a transformation to add the special effect that affects the desolid instead of getting rid of the power.  If the desolidification is affected by magic, you could create a spell that makes all weapons in the area magic.  It does not give them any bonus for anything, it just makes it magic.  
 

[tombrown803]

If the desolidification or invisibility are Inherent you would need to use Transform, because Dispel, Drain, and Surpress wouldn't work on them

 

[Duke Bushido]

On 10/13/2022 at 8:42 AM, Ockham's Spoon said:

 you could consider putting a Limitation on the Invisibility and/or Desolid that spirits have "Doesn't work while affected by PRE attack from a cleric at the PRE +30 level" or the like.  

 

 

That right there; that is precisely what I would do.

 

We use it for Vampires: susceptible to sunlight.

 

We use it for werewolves: vulnerable to silver.

 

We use it for monsters: double damage from luchadores.

 

We use it repeatedly for individual characters, but we rarely consider that its broad-spectrum use on an entire type of being (all witches are  susceptible to water) is not just a points-saving measure, and not just a restriction on a particular set of characters, but one of the foundation stones upon which your universe is built.  You are not just defining a character, but a world.

 

"All gargoyles turn to stone in the sunlight" is something we have trained ourselves to look at as a weakness in gargoyles.  With the _mandate_ that gargoyles must all take that exact limitation, what have done is not weaken gargoyles, per se, but instead you have given the sun the power to petrify gargoyles!  You have established a universal law of "how this world works."

 

As this incredibly expensive power construct you  are pursuing....  Well is what it does _worth_ what it costs?  Only you can answer that, of course: what is the value of being able to see pixies as opposed to the value of not being able to see them?

If the cost is unjustified, or this is something that you want to be relatively attainable, it makes more sense to choose the "the world works thusly" route and all pixies are mandated to have the disadvantage "visible in the presence of X magic" (cost to taste) then create a simple spell- maybe a change environment (where the change is that Pixies are visible in this area; and it has built-in AOE, so..) as opposed to a penalty skill level or whatever-

 

Side note: while I am cool with the fact that Change Environment can now grant skill levels or impose PSLs, I feel this has caused too many to absolutely throw away the memory of Change Environment's chief purpose: altering a given area specifically to take advantage of someone's power build, and specifically to trigger Disadvantages and Power Limitations:  "if I create a wind vortex, your gliding should be strong enough and fast enough to carry all three of us to safety!"  Or "don't worry!  I know that Camenbert Man gets too soft and runny to fight when he overheats!  I will use my "create a zone of intense dry heat" power!"  Though honestly, given the number of threads over the years asking if CE had a real purpose, of how to model what it does, etc-  I suspect a fair number of people never actually figured that out to start with.  Oof-- especially the discussions about pinning down the "mechanics" of CE.  The mechanics were chosen by the player of the affected character when he selected the Disadvantage or Limitation.  That is where you look to see what happens when CE is used.

 

I expect it stems from the need of many to know "exactly how."  "I _know_ that Pyrojet's cone of incineration doesnt work in a vacuum, but _how_  doesnt it work?  _Why_ doesnt it work?!  Points, levels, penalties, shades, degrees!"

 

Well, the various characters and creatures were effected exactly,as it said they were affected on the character sheet.

 

Yes; I agree that a grassy slope covered in ice should _probably_ have an effect on everyone, at least to some extent.  I already confessed to having no beef with that.

 

I am regularly incensed, however, over the complete forgetting of it's baseline ability in favor of specific numbers and "affects everyone exactly like this and in no other way" mechanics.

 

But back to the point:  if, in your universe, all members of X should equally and infallibly suffer Y when exposed to Z, well this is precisely the Limitation / change environment Schtick we used for what?  Thirty-odd years?  Before someone decided it just didnt work and needed to be "fixed."  A mandatory So sad: "member of X, so exposure to Y causes Z."  Then simulate X with judisciuos use of Change Environment.

 

And that is how I _would_ handle it, personally.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sneaky way to make visibility work:

 

Images (outline with light) area effect.  Doesn't matter if you make people you can see glow, and everyone is affected in the area, even if tehy are invisible.

 

The desolid part is a bit tougher, because it has to affect desolidified, which can make stuff expensive.