Leaping Q

[unclevlad]

Concept has Leaping 12m, and Gliding 12m.  They're separate powers, can always be used together.

 

The question in my mind:  would the Gliding allow the character to have the benefit of Accurate on his leaping?  It feels like it should to me.  The Gliding would allow trajectory shaping.  

 

Or would you allow this...with Noncombat Decel on the Gliding only?  Cuz that'd do it, for sure, but it feels like overkill.

[Hey I Can Chan]

I'm pretty sure letting a character simultaneously employ multiple Movement Powers is a house rule—even if the Movement Powers are bought separately so that, like many other Powers, the Movement Powers could be employed at the same time. You could ask the GM to make up something, but I'd hesitate because then I'd feel obligated to fabricate a whole raft of house rules about how every combination of Movement Powers works together when used simultaneously, and that's daunting .("Okay, I'm using my combined Flight-Running-Swinging-Teleportation to move from there to there. What happens?")

 

Also note the lack of rules for combining into a lone Half-Phase Action both Leaping and Running (or Swimming), which would be an ability of Everyman were it possible, yet combining those goes unmentioned.

 

To be clear, you can already take a Half-Phase Action to Leap half your Leap forward to a point slightly ahead of you in the sky ("O, no! I missed!") then take a 0-Phase Action to activate your Gliding then take another Half-Phase Action to start immediately Gliding forward (as per 6E1 156). In other words, you can pretty much already use Gliding to get where you want after Leaping; it just takes a Full Phase.

 

Presumably, you want to do this in just a Half-Phase? As a GM, I'd suggest that you buy the Adder Accurate Leap (6E1 224) if you want your Half-Phase Action leaps to be accurate. I'd let you tie it to a Limitation like Only In Situations That Also Allow Gliding, the value of which will vary depending on the campaign (maybe -¼ among superheroes but -½ or more among Zero-G pirates).

 

[unclevlad]

Oh, I know I can add Accurate to the Leap.  That's the easy approach by the rules.  And, no, I don't have any particular scenario in mind.  I think you've identified the point...what the rules are with regard to mixing movement rates that should be compatible.  

 

Actually, looking at things, the easiest approach might be 1-2 levels with Leaping...hitting the target hex is only hitting DCV 3, with the range mod...and the max range mod for a full non-combat leap (there's an additional NC mult I wasn't mentioning;  it wasn't material to the point) isn't that high.

 

The point about mixing movement modes still comes up, for purposes of shaping the trajectory of a leap...can you leap 12m in, say, a warehouse with a 4m ceiling height?  Normally it requires 6m;  mixing leap and glide would allow it easily.  But especially with movement levels with all forms of movement...I'd say it's reasonable. 

[Duke Bushido]

Does the edition you are using have that "usable as" Advantage?

 

It might simplify things a bit.  Be a bit odd, but simpler, maybe.

[Hey I Can Chan]

The issue with the Advantage Usable [As Another Form Of Movement] is that it, in part, says, "Changing from one mode of movement to another is a Zero Phase Action, but a character can only do so once per Phase" (6E1 158). So taking a Full Phase to Leap-then-Glide is only possible every other Phase. Purchasing standalone Gliding and Leaping means being able to do a Leap-and-Glide every Phase.

[LoneWolf]

Gliding states that from the ground you start with a velocity and altitude equal to your upward leap in meter.  But in game terms you are not actually combining movement types.  Your upward leap is being used as a limit on your starting movement.  Since your upward leap is usually half your leap a character with 12m leaping and 12m gliding starting altitude and velocity would be 6m.  He would need to accelerate to gain his full gliding speed using the gliding rules for acceleration.  If the character is high enough when he starts, he can gain his full gliding speed.  Since you are not actually leaping the rules for leaping do not apply.

 

The only way to combine movement type is to do so as a full phase action, basically you take two half moves.  This means that a gliding character will often be better off using his starting upward leap to glide.  For example, if I am 3m away from a cliff and want to use my full gliding it would be better to leap from the ground so I can use the full gliding instead of using 3m of running to reach the cliff and half my gliding as to make a half move.  

 

 

[unclevlad]

Ahh...yeah.  Actually, it's saying you do get to use your Leap with your Glide, indirectly, just to get that starting elevation and velocity.  It actually means, in this arrangement, that you want to buy upward leap...and you might get some interesting-looking trajectories.   

[Christopher R Taylor]

I always considered gliding to be inaccurate and uncertain in its landing, so I would not presume accurate leaping as part of the deal.  

[Duke Bushido]

10 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I always considered gliding to be inaccurate and uncertain in its landing, so I would not presume accurate leaping as part of the deal.  

 

 

Ha!  It is amusing to compare notes with other GMs.  I went the other route: I assumed the character couls spill air or what have you to land where he wants to land (since any other movement power lets you go where you want to go) and allowed variations of "Uncotrolled" to represent things like "falling slowly by drifting downward ala feathers and sheets of paper"-- even have one player concoct the spell "whistle down" to represent his gliding being almost totally dependent on air currents: he had to roll to hit his target hex, use the d6 scatter direction for misses, then roll d6d6 to see how much he missed it by.   

 

He had a knack for landing in bodies of water.   

 

 

 

[Ockham's Spoon]

Or you could buy Flight with the limitation "Only to simulate Leaping and Gliding", giving you only one movement power to deal with 😁

[Christopher R Taylor]

True, this reads more like a stunt than a power set: if you have leaping and gliding you can leap far into the air then glide from that point, if you want.

[Duke Bushido]

I had to back up a bit due to a post above.  I had forgotten that at some point after 2e (remember, 2e is where I live) Superleap became Leaping.  Even though it is under the Powers section, removing the "super," to me, makes it akin to a Characteristic: it is just a property of the Character, and it's kind of up to the GM to determine when it is an actual Power versus an exceptional human being.  If it is just an amazing human trick, then you really don't have to worry about activating / deactivating it, just as you don't worry about activating your STUN.

 

As pointed out by someone above, at that point: your starting glide altitude is the same,as your vertical leap."

 

 

[LoneWolf]

53 minutes ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

Or you could buy Flight with the limitation "Only to simulate Leaping and Gliding", giving you only one movement power to deal with 😁

 

In order to do so you need to apply the advantage usable as second mode of movement.   Gliding in 6th edition is a limited form of flight.  

[unclevlad]

True, but it wouldn't be very expensive.  It's only a +1/4, and it'll get slammed by Gliding's -1.  In *most* cases it's not like you're buying lots of base move with this, in any case.

 

That might actually be the best way to do it...certainly not one that came to mind.  And it's simple in both concept and execution.

[Ninja-Bear]

9 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

 

In order to do so you need to apply the advantage usable as second mode of movement.   Gliding in 6th edition is a limited form of flight.  

No he doesn’t. If he’s buying Flight with a restriction that it can only behave as a Leap/Glide limitation then he’s fine. He just defined how he restricted Flight. Just like buying Flight only touches surface can be used for Super Running.

[LoneWolf]

Gliding and leap are different movement powers.  Flight along surface is still flight and follows all the rules of flight including turn mode.  Gliding is a restricted form of flight to begin with.  He needs the advantage for it to function like leap. 

[unclevlad]

Well, I think if push comes to shove, the technical build would be

 

Flight X meters (Gliding, -1)

Naked Advantage:  usable as second form of movement (Leap), applied to Flight (X points)

 

Why?  Gliding as a limitation is completely unique to flight as a movement mode.  It can't be applied to the leap, so you can't build the power with both.

 

But naked advantages are a tad weird, as well...foremost, they're special powers, and can't be put into a framework.  In that context, creating a -1/2 limitation for combined leaping and gliding, wouldn't be horrible, particularly if there's no other limitations to be applied.  

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Gliding and leap are different movement powers.  Flight along surface is still flight and follows all the rules of flight including turn mode.  Gliding is a restricted form of flight to begin with.  He needs the advantage for it to function like leap. 

No he doesn’t. His concept of leap plus glide is already a limited Flight. Seriously what is Leap but Flight based on Strength and can only go in a straight-line and must land in time?

[LoneWolf]

Then the character is not gliding he is flying.  He would have to follow all the rules of flight including paying END.  Since characters who have flight can glide he could switch to that, but that will go back to the problem of taking two half moves and his maximum speed will be half his inches in flight. 

 

It is actually cheaper to buy extra leaping linked to gliding than to buy it as flight.  For 3 points I get +8 leaping linked to gliding (characters start with 4m leap),  6 points gets me 12 gliding (-1 limitation gliding).  The limitation on flight would be a -1/4, so 12m of flight cost 10 points.   
 

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Then the character is not gliding he is flying.  He would have to follow all the rules of flight including paying END.  Since characters who have flight can glide he could switch to that, but that will go back to the problem of taking two half moves and his maximum speed will be half his inches in flight. 

 

It is actually cheaper to buy extra leaping linked to gliding than to buy it as flight.  For 3 points I get +8 leaping linked to gliding (characters start with 4m leap),  6 points gets me 12 gliding (-1 limitation gliding).  The limitation on flight would be a -1/4, so 12m of flight cost 10 points.   
 

 

On the first point, it's becoming a matter of rules philosophy.  N-B's argument is a practical interpretation;  yours is a tighter, literal one.  

 

On leaping linked to gliding?  Pointless.  If power B is linked to power A, then B can only be activated when A is in use.  You cannot generally activate leaping while gliding...or swinging.  Leaping requires a solid surface.  You could play the Spider-Man style movements, ricocheting off buildings or other solid objects, but that's very unusual.

[Duke Bushido]

Right.  We get what you are saying, Sir (presumed; apologies if incorrect); we are disagreeing (respectfully, of course).

 

 

Using an example:

 

If I buy Running, I pay full price.  I may be using it to simulate strafing jets on my exo-suit, so I take the disadvantage "straight ahead only," which the GM rules is a -1 Limitation.

 

My buddy is also building an exo-suit, but, mechanical genius that he is, he has found a way to swivel the the thrust nozzles so that he can also shoot off hard left (though still only in a straight line).

 

He does not take "only straight ahead," -1 and then buy "can also go left."

 

He takes a lesser Limitation: only straight lines forward or left," for maybe a total of -3/4.

 

Same with the proposed Flight build:  it _is_ limited; it is slightly-less limited than Gliding, but there is no advantage here to the Flight.

 

Obviously, it is between the GM and the Player, but I can see the limitations of Gliding applying, save that he doesn't have to start at 3" high (or whatever his normal leap might be).  Given the way Leaping (and gravity) work, I am inclined to say that he may "leap" no more than his inches in Flight, but the character's concept may limit it even more. (I see Uncle Vlad has replied while I type; looking forward to reading it!)

 

It just like leaping, he can't leap again until he lands, so he is not going to stack move after move to straight altitude as he could with unlimited Flight.  Interestingly, he is also not inhibited by the acceleration rules of Flight (for the leaping part, I mean, and unless his GM rules otherwise).

 

Again: it is between 2 very specific people, but as a gut reaction, without knowing how fully he can simulate the two or cannot simulate them, I would assign a -3/4 and tweak it during play (I do 1/8 levels, and have for years, just for these odd cases; in this case, he might end up with a -7/8, depending on just how much and how often the "leaping" added to his utility (frankly, I am not seeing a not, as most of my glider characters can be thrown by the brick far further than they can leap, but again: not my game, my character, or my player).

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

On the first point, it's becoming a matter of rules philosophy.  N-B's argument is a practical interpretation;  yours is a tighter, literal one.  

 

On leaping linked to gliding?  Pointless.  If power B is linked to power A, then B can only be activated when A is in use.  You cannot generally activate leaping while gliding...or swinging.  Leaping requires a solid surface.  You could play the Spider-Man style movements, ricocheting off buildings or other solid objects, but that's very unusual.

By the way if you want to pay for Alternate Mode the. By all means go for it. (Not sure if I made that clear.)

 

Was Incorrect that you wear combining both Leap and Gilde so you can achieve a hight initial altitude? That’s what I was assuming. Apologies to everyone if that wasn’t the case.