Custom Advantages?

[Lord Liaden]

We've all seen the vast number of Custom Limitations on Power constructs that have appeared in HERO System published books since, well, forever. And undoubtedly many of us here have come up with our own Lims over the years. Tailoring Powers to function in particular ways or under specific circumstances is a well-established feature of the system.

 

I'm wondering if anyone here has invented their own Custom Advantages for Powers that they'd care to share? Obviously the official system already gives us a huge variety of them, but perhaps you identified some deficiency in the rules you felt could be filled by a new Advantage? If so, other people might benefit from your sharing them here.

 

One that I've used for quite a while is for Energy Blast/Blast, "Strength Adds To Damage" (+1/2). The mechanic, and the cost of the Advantage, is based on Killing Attack, Hand-To-Hand, with the Ranged Advantage, which has been part of the core rules since Fifth Edition. That construct has three components, the base Damage, additional Damage added due to Strength, plus the addition of Range. Since Blast has base Damage plus Range already, the custom Advantage adds the third, making it work the same way as Ranged HKA, except for Normal Damage instead of Killing Damage.

 

A Ranged HKA is explicitly described in the rules as most often representing HTH weapons which can also be thrown at a target. But there may be times when your intent or your concept is better represented by using Normal Damage. The example I usually think of is the hammer wielded by comic-book Thor.

 

Does anyone else have examples you'd like to offer?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have quite a few, here's a sampling

 

Delayed END Cost: +¼ costs END every other phase, +½ costs END per turn, and then +¼ per step down time chart, but maxes at +1

 

Reduced Recovery: Stun damage from this attack heals slower than REC/Phase.  Base +½ to make the wounds heal Stun only on post 12 recovery.  Thus, even if a character takes a Recovery, they regain no STUN unless they recover for a full turn (or get only the free post-12 recovery.  +½ to make the wounds heal slower one step down the time chart (minute, five minutes, etc.

This can be purchased on BODY recovery but is a +¼ advantage for each step up the time chart, starting at Recovery/week.  Ordinarily with care in a hospital etc a character can get Body back equal to their Recovery.  This pushes it down to once per month for +¼, then +½ for once a season, and so on.

 

Limited Recovery: Wounds cannot heal normally, and require special attention to heal.  The healing of stun and body must be bought separately.  Adjustment powers begin their normal fade when the circumstances are met, normal and killing wounds begin to heal normally.

+½ if the healing method is common (bandages)
+¾ if its uncommon (healing magic and items in a magical world, surgery, etc)

+1 if its rare (unicorn touches its horn to your wound, special isotope found only in the marianas trench, full moon once a year at a special location).

-¼ to the advantage if the wound heals entirely when special circumstances are applied

 

Forceful: +¼, negates KB resistance (hard KB resistance ignores)

 

[unclevlad]

Principally for Running and Flight, where 6E MegaScale is too much (in both cost and effect)
 

High Scale

+1/4  -- x3 NC

+1/2 -- x10 NC

+3/4 -- x30 NC

+1 -- x100 NC

 

High Scale DOES work with non-combat multipliers, including the baseline.  So you get a net x6 for +1/4;  net x12 if you buy a 5 point NCM and +1/4 High Scale.  It is still, of course, non-combat movement with the standard OCV and DCV adjustments.  Also, like MegaScale, you can't use High Scale to do a Move Through.  High Scale works with NCMs because you're paying for the NCM anyway, and you're not getting the massive, crazy jump you get with MegaScale.  

 

A similar pattern can be used for the related Mega scaling like MegaRange, but this hasn't been a concern of mine often enough.

 

For example:

5 SPD, 18m base flight.  x4 NCM (+5 points).  High Scale, 1m -> 10m, +1/2.  23 points with +1/2, 34 points.  Net speed:  650 mph.  Commercial jet level.

 

Another one is Gate.  This isn't new, so much, as repackaging a feature of Teleport.  Gate combines Constant, AoE, and some form of UOO;  the base level for "1 person at a time" should just be UBO.  You can get AoE up to 4m for +1/4, so the net here is +1.  Then, there's a mandatory limitation that it's a 2-way gate, that's -1/2.  I'd rather keep it simple, and call the entire base construction +1/2.  XDM is often conceptually similar to Teleport, so I also allow it to be expanded to that power.  

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Limited Recovery: Wounds cannot heal normally, and require special attention to heal.  The healing of stun and body must be bought separately.  Adjustment powers begin their normal fade when the circumstances are met, normal and killing wounds begin to heal normally.

 

+½ if the healing method is common (bandages)
+¾ if its uncommon (healing magic and items in a magical world, surgery, etc)

+1 if its rare (unicorn touches its horn to your wound, special isotope found only in the marianas trench, full moon once a year at a special location).

-¼ to the advantage if the wound heals entirely when special circumstances are applied

 

These kind of remind me of the "Double Bleeding" Advantage that appeared in the Magic Items supplement for First Edition Fantasy HERO. IIRC for a +1/4 Advantage on a Killing Attack, wounds subject to the optional Bleeding rules would bleed at twice their normal rate.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

.

 

Does anyone else have examples you'd like to offer?

 

 

Well, in another thread I just learned that I was apparently the only GM who saw an inhetent advantageous version of Uncontrolled.

 

Does that count?

 

I have mentioned several times allowing 1/8 level advantages or limitations for "realistically. Yes; it is limited, but not much or not often" limitations and similarly trivial advantages ("extra STUN multiplier only against chronic smokers" being one I will never forget)

 

One,thing I assumed most folks would allow- up until a casual discussion with our own Chris Goodwin, that is-  was advantages with disadvantages on them to limit the advantage.  A favorite use of this amongst most of my players was putting a limited amount of range of on normally unranged powers (such as Drains).  Thus, they would have the advantage Ranged with the limitations "reduced range," recorded as Range(reduced range) X

 

Where X was the range limit.  The disadvantage did not modify the cost of the power construct, but the value of the Advantage.  If an Advantage worth +1/2 took a modifying Disadvantage worth -1/2, then the result was new "custom advantage" with a value equal to 1/2 of the original Advantage value, or in this instance, +1/4.

 

Similarly, Lumitations could take advantages to...  Well, the best way to say it is "reduce the limit on the power" or "limit the limitation."    A limitation worth -1/2 that is modified by an advantage worth +1/2 has a new value of -1/4.  Should any modified Limitation end up with a positive value, refigure ("pedicure?!"  Really, autocorrect?  Really?)  it as a modified advantage; do the oposite for modified aevantages that end up with a negative value.

 

I know (and mostly reject, on behalf my points-paying players) that newer editions state "you don't have to use all of what you pay for" or "use only the amount that is right for your concept, but I find that no player, upon having paid the full cost of Zero Endurance will willingly pay 1/4 END when it is much more advantageous to tweak his concept a bit so that he has full access to what he paid for. "Build what you want" and "get what you pay for" are going to but heads constantly when you are expected to pay for more than what you want but not use all of what you paid for.  (This is one of the two reasons I have never adopted the two-steps-to-Zero-END-cost first presented in 4e).

 

Anyway, out of time; I have to run.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

These kind of remind me of the "Double Bleeding" Advantage that appeared in the Magic Items supplement for First Edition Fantasy HERO.

 

Yeah there are a lot of interesting effects and advantages that work well for fantasy hero treasures and monster abilities, but maybe not exactly useful or even cost effective in something like Champions.  Like these:

 

Impaling: ignores appropriate defense by 1 for each body rolled on the dice per damage class even if not normally counted. +¼  advantage

 

Efficient: +1 to minimum on ALL d6 effect of an attack per +¼ (so if you roll no lower than a 2 on each d6)

 

Bane: An advantage that makes an attack more potent against a limited group of targets.  Against the designated targets, the attack does x1½ damage, before defenses but after hit locations.

ADV	CIRCUMSTANCES
+¾	Large group (humanoids,  animals, martians)
+½	Moderate group (men, non-sentient mammals, robots)
+¼	Evil men, Cats, Undead, elementals

 

Objectively, these are of little use to most character builds, but make interesting and useful effects for items and creature attacks.  Those rats cause you to bleed extra!  That sword ignores some of your defenses!  This kind of thing is probably best reserved for, say, a book of treasures like you noted (3rd edition), which is in the somewhat distant future in my plans for my FH campaign.

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Jason Reid]

I tend to add an "Exceeds Campaign Limits" required advantage for the portions of characteristics and/or powers that, well, exceed my campaign soft limits. Typically a +1.

[Lord Liaden]

7 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

One,thing I assumed most folks would allow- up until a casual discussion with our own Chris Goodwin, that is-  was advantages with disadvantages on them to limit the advantage.  A favorite use of this amongst most of my players was putting a limited amount of range of on normally unranged powers (such as Drains).  Thus, they would have the advantage Ranged with the limitations "reduced range," recorded as Range(reduced range) X

 

Where X was the range limit.  The disadvantage did not modify the cost of the power construct, but the value of the Advantage.  If an Advantage worth +1/2 took a modifying Disadvantage worth -1/2, then the result was new "custom advantage" with a value equal to 1/2 of the original Advantage value, or in this instance, +1/4.

 

 

Might I interpolate that you mean "Limitation" here rather than "Disadvantage?" Otherwise I don't think the statement makes sense. (I mix those two up sometimes myself, especially when I'm in a hurry.)

 

The way that was done under 5E was to buy an Advantage to be modified as a Naked Advantage, like a separate Power, which can then take Advantages and Limitations itself. I don't have time at the moment to check that it works the same way under 6E.

[Duke Bushido]

Yes; I meant Limitation.  When you think "opposites"  and you are working with a world like "advantage," which actually has more than one opposite...

 

Well, anyway....

 

I appreciate the insight on naked advantages, however I wont be doing that.  I mean, I do it when I have need of it, but having been putting limitations (and other advantages sometimes) on advantages and limitations since 1e (since no on really said we couldn't), thirty-odd years after the fact is just too long to expect me to wait for official rules.  I didnt even wait what-three years for official vehicle rules?  I'm just going to keep doinf what I have been doing for forty years now; thanks all the same, but the bugs arw well-worked out of it at this point.

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

It's legal in 6E;  in HD, I think it's the only way to do it.  What is, and isn't allowed through a naked advantage is something to be discussed with the GM, tho, as RAW is extremely nebulous here.

 

I wish HD supported a limitation on an advantage...but it just doesn't have the underlying structure needed, and to be fair, it would get rather complex.  Imagine an MP with common mods, a power with standard advantages, a limited advantage, and a standard limitation.  YOUCH!   There'd also have to be a formalization of how this impacted the active points, so...it's not simple. 

 

EDIT:  Duke...yeah, back in the day, I had a spreadsheet that handled MPs and ECs and figured characteristics and the like...I think it computed max velocity using the older non-com rules.  If you're doing that, then it can be straightforward to simply convert every advantage to its point cost...and add them all up.  Doing THAT, then applying a limitation to an advantage is easy.

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

Some thoughts on LL's STR Adds To Damage.  It's not that easy to use.

 

In 6E, the dice added from STR have to be notably higher than what you'd get just adding more dice to the Blast itself.  25 STR, say...6d6 Blast with STR Adds, you get 2 more dice.  Nice.  8d6?  You only get 1 more.  So there's a balancing act.  Also, this is increasing the END of the base blast, THEN you have to spend the END for the STR.  Not a big difference...and it's possible to play END Break Point games...but it's there.

 

5E would seem the more natural problem child...but...this is NOT!!! applying Ranged to an HA.  HAs get a unique treatment...the HA increases the base damage from STR.  In essence, that *is* saying it's STR, only to do damage.  Energy Blast is an attack in itself, so that marks the upper limit of how much damage you can add from all other elements.  STR is second only to DEX in value, because of figured characteristics, but if you want 35 STR, say, to take advantage of the figured characteristics, you have to buy a 7d6 Energy Blast, with a fairly expensive advantage.  And, if only 7d6 Blast?  You can't buy martial DCs, or maneuvers with +DCs, or convert levels with Blast to damage.  You're capped.  Note that it's also fairly expensive, and again, the END cost increase has to be addressed.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

 

In 6E, the dice added from STR have to be notably higher than what you'd get just adding more dice to the Blast itself.  25 STR, say...6d6 Blast with STR Adds, you get 2 more dice.  Nice.  8d6?  You only get 1 more.  So there's a balancing act.  Also, this is increasing the END of the base blast, THEN you have to spend the END for the STR.  Not a big difference...and it's possible to play END Break Point games...but it's there.

 

 

 

I have to say, I can't agree with the numbers you're getting. For a Ranged HKA, Strength added to it is not pro-rated for the Ranged Advantage, since per the rules it doesn't add to how a target takes damage. To convert your examples to comparable Killing Damage Classes, 25 STR with 2D6 HKA increases the HKA by 5 DCs, to 3 1/2 D6, regardless of whether the HKA is Ranged or not. Numerous published examples also support this.

 

To replicate that mechanic for Normal Damage via Blast, IMO it would be fair to say that STR is not pro-rated for the Custom Advantage, by definition of the Advantage. So, 6D6 Blast plus 25 STR adds 5 DCs, up to 11D6. 8D6 plus 25 STR gets you 13D6. Granted, you're paying more in Active Points and Endurance than if you just bought a 13D6 Blast, but you're also getting all the other benefits of the Strength you bought.

 

IME this Advantage works best for characters who have already bought their STR up significantly, by either Heroic or Superheroic standards. Also note that under 6E, unless a HKA has the Real Weapon Limitation, or the GM otherwise imposes a limit, it isn't restricted to doubling its base damage as an upper limit. You can add as much damage as you have Strength for.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Hugh Neilson]

6 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Some thoughts on LL's STR Adds To Damage.  It's not that easy to use.

 

In 6E, the dice added from STR have to be notably higher than what you'd get just adding more dice to the Blast itself.  25 STR, say...6d6 Blast with STR Adds, you get 2 more dice.  Nice.  8d6?  You only get 1 more.  So there's a balancing act.  Also, this is increasing the END of the base blast, THEN you have to spend the END for the STR.  Not a big difference...and it's possible to play END Break Point games...but it's there.

 

25 STR with STR adds would add 5d6 and cost 15 points.  That's cheaper than another 5d6 Blast.  With an 8d6 Blast, it costs 20 points to add 5d6.  Still a bit of a discount.

 

But 15 STR means it's break even with a 6d6 Blast and only 3d6 for 20 points with an 8d6 Blast.

 

STR adding to HKA is an orphan mechanic.  There's a logic to it, but it's also inconsistent with "pay for what you get and get what you pay for".  We've had a few discussions on that in the past, so let's not derail this thread.

 

Hmmm...other than to note the reason has always been "D&D players' heads will explode if STR doesn't boost HKA damage automatically.  The solution is a more complex build for gear purchased with cash instead of points. However, in 5e, many D&D weapons can have increased damage from DEX instead of STR - do we also need to parallel that in Hero, or should we accept that they are two different games with different underlying assumptions?

18 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Delayed END Cost: +¼ costs END every other phase, +½ costs END per turn, and then +¼ per step down time chart, but maxes at +1

 

The first sounds like a variant of half END, maybe a bit advantageous is some cases.  What happens if I use the power in one phase, and then use something else? No END cost?  Do we track so I pay END next time I use it (even if that is next turn, or even next week)?  What if I use it for a Multiple Attack?  No END this phase, or pay for every second use?

 

For +1/2, I could make it 0 END, so why would I pay +1/2 to pay END once a turn?  Anything over that falls into the "autofire issue", which I assume is why you cap this at +1 (although spending END every 5 minutes may as well be 0 END anyway).

[Lord Liaden]

*Shrug* I did a rebuild of the official Champions villain, Valak the World-Ravager (CV 3) in which I expanded his Cosmic Halbard's HKA into a Multipower with different Advantages on the HKA for each slot. As an example, one of the slots is 4D6 HKA, Ranged, Line Of Sight, 120 AP. Valak has 100 STR at 1/2 END, 125 AP. With his STR he can raise the HKA to 10 1/2D6 using 17 END, 245 total CP. 10 1/2D6 RKA with LOS would be 240 AP, END 24. Substituting my Custom Advantage structure would turn that into 32D6 Blast. Of course I'm also getting all the lifting, grabbing, throwing etc. benefits of Valak's 100 STR. Perhaps just as importantly, I'm building to a concept.

 

But I'm not going to divert this thread any more with my stuff. I wanted to offer an option to people who want to use it, not dissect HERO System any more than it has been, which is to death. I'm still hoping to see even more options presented.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

For +1/2, I could make it 0 END, so why would I pay +1/2 to pay END once a turn?

 

Like I said its one of those things that doesn't necessarily make sense for a PC to buy mathematically, but fits well in other contexts, like a suit of armor that makes you use END at a slower rate.  These are the kinds of advantages that allow a GM to build an item or creature who doesn't care about point costs, but give a mechanic for consistency and to represent active cost for dispels.  Does that sword of Schwarz have to be balanced?  No, but its good to know how it was made and how many active points it has (and real cost, for that matter).

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

*Shrug* I did a rebuild of the official Champions villain, Valak the World-Ravager (CV 3) in which I expanded his Cosmic Halbard's HKA into a Multipower with different Advantages on the HKA for each slot. As an example, one of the slots is 4D6 HKA, Ranged, Line Of Sight, 120 AP. Valak has 100 STR at 1/2 END, 125 AP. With his STR he can raise the HKA to 10 1/2D6 using 17 END, 245 total CP. 10 1/2D6 RKA with LOS would be 240 AP, END 24. Substituting my Custom Advantage structure would turn that into 32D6 Blast. Of course I'm also getting all the lifting, grabbing, throwing etc. benefits of Valak's 100 STR. Perhaps just as importantly, I'm building to a concept.

 

But I'm not going to divert this thread any more with my stuff. I wanted to offer an option to people who want to use it, not dissect HERO System any more than it has been, which is to death. I'm still hoping to see even more options presented.

 

I see no reason that HKA should be the sole power to which STR can be added.  If adding STR to a Blast, Drain, Entangle or even RKA is a problem, adding it to an HKA is also a problem.  The math shows that it is priced at +1/2, so using that price makes sense.  If it is an issue, it is also an issue for HKA.  If not, then it should not be any more an issue for other attacks. Agreed that this issue has been dissected before, and does not need to be dissected again here.

 

For another comparable, we could pump Valak's MP up to 240 AP, lower his STR to 10 and add a +90 STR, half END slot to the MP (probably have to sacrifice the focus limitation on 113 of the MP pool so he can use STR without the halberd, but I doubt that would set him back the 113 points he saved on STR. Now his STR can effectively augment any attack in the MP.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah its going to be challenging to explain why straining harder makes your flash more effective, but it can be done.  Its like using DOT for other things than damage; healing, flash, transform, etc.  You have to be careful as a GM but its a valid construct.

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Like I said its one of those things that doesn't necessarily make sense for a PC to buy mathematically, but fits well in other contexts, like a suit of armor that makes you use END at a slower rate.  These are the kinds of advantages that allow a GM to build an item or creature who doesn't care about point costs, but give a mechanic for consistency and to represent active cost for dispels.  Does that sword of Schwarz have to be balanced?  No, but its good to know how it was made and how many active points it has (and real cost, for that matter).

 

Sure.  But I also look for the builds to be reasonable based on other constructs.  I'd be inclined to agree that END once per turn is probably more than +1/4, which leaves +1/2. However, absent an autofire concept, I would not take the advantage past +1/2.  Paying END once per minute isn't much worse than paying no END at all, but it's not better.

 

37 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah its going to be challenging to explain why straining harder makes your flash more effective, but it can be done.  Its like using DOT for other things than damage; healing, flash, transform, etc.  You have to be careful as a GM but its a valid construct.

 

STR adds to your no range eye poke Flash or your "throwing sand/gravel in his eyes" flash. A dusty room has a lot less impact on your eyes than wind-blown dust in a storm. No more a stretch than SFX I see for a lot of other abilities.

 

[Duke Bushido]

52 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

.  Its like using DOT for other things than damage; healing, flash, transform, etc.  You have to be careful as a GM but its a valid construct.

 

 

Agreed.

 

And because of that, I prefer "effect over time" or "slow to affect" to Damage over Time.  It seems more inviting to non-damage-oriented powers.

 

[Duke Bushido]

"Gradual Effect."  That's what I suggest we rechristen it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like Effect Over Time but that strays a bit from the computer game origins of the name a bit.