Regenerating Characteristics Other than BODY

[Cloppy Clip]

I don't remember who it was I saw this from, but somewhere on this forum I came across the idea of making Regeneration an Advantage for REC, where +1/2 would move you one step up the Time Chart. That way, 1 BODY per turn cost 10 points, the same as Regeneration in 4e. Obviously HERO went a different direction in 5e and then 6e, but I quite liked the elegance of that approach.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I had forgotten Regen was per recovery!

Maybe 5e should have built Regen as 1 REC, BOD only, moved up the time chart

 

 

I actually kind of like that!

 

I am nowhere near my books (at job 2 today); what would that work out to, price-wise, in 6e?

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The big danger with tying things to recovery is the Destruction rules from Fantasy Hero: what if someone drains your Recovery?

[Duke Bushido]

27 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The big danger with tying things to recovery is the Destruction rules from Fantasy Hero: what if someone drains your Recovery?

 

 

I dont know how that works in 6e, or in the original FH (we used Champions rules for pretty much every genre until 4e), but that has, since the 80s, been one of my favorite Drain builds.

 

[Gauntlet]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah the cost has to make sense, although its worth considering that regeneration gives you back stats no matter how they were reduced, so its broader than power defense.  Its extremely unlikely someone will reduce, say, Dexterity with anything but drain, but Stun and Body can be chipped away in any number of ways.

 

And in addition, there are the special effect issues. If your character has regeneration, it does not mean that he is immune to the attack, it just means that the damage from the attack goes away much faster. 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

.  Its extremely unlikely someone will reduce, say, Dexterity with anything but drain, but Stun and Body can be chipped away in any number of ways.

 

 

 

you remind me of a story I have told before, about a new player who was not comfortable with the role-play aspects of the game, so he would detail his actions and, as GM, I would do a flashy, glamorized re-telling of the action.

 

at one point, he was preparing a mighty blow against a villain-  a blow that would deal a considerabke amount of BODY.  One of the other players recommended a "subdual" type attack, to which Kevin replied "yeah;that's right.  I'm gonna poke him in the STUN, but really hard!"

 

 

[unclevlad]

22 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah the cost has to make sense, although its worth considering that regeneration gives you back stats no matter how they were reduced, so its broader than power defense.  Its extremely unlikely someone will reduce, say, Dexterity with anything but drain, but Stun and Body can be chipped away in any number of ways.

 

It's a fringe case, but you can switch the defense, to create a Drain targeting Ego Def.  

[Duke Bushido]

On 10/6/2023 at 8:00 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

When the rules get in the way of the fun, change the rules.  

 

Way ahead of you, Sir.   

 

seriously, though, these are words to live by.  I have been doing some testing for the last fifty years or so, and I think he's right!    

 

 

On 10/6/2023 at 8:00 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Alternatively, what about a "time delay" limitation on Power Defense?

 

I have never condsidered this, and it's awesome!  I love it! Problematically, though, is that it can't restore you to full value if you ever took a single adjustment greater than your defense.  If the attacker bought the return rate down to a level that exceeds your lifespan...

 

And, as you pointed out, if power defense didn't apply to the attack...

 

 

 

On 10/5/2023 at 9:39 PM, Gauntlet said:

Can anyone think of a way to create Regeneration in 6th Edition that regenerates characteristics other than BODY.

 

I dont remember for certain, but I _think_ 6e regeneration is some,sort of screwball Healing derivative; is it not?

 

At any rate, were I doing this in my game, I would use Regeneration as-is, except declaring that this instance of Regen is specifically for DEX (o4 whatever).  That just seems,the simplest place to start.  Modify as playtesting suggests.

 

I think that for 6e- what with all characteristics costing the same and no characteristics derived from any others, this would be even less likely to cause problems.  If you really feel it should for whatever reason cost more, make it a build:

 

Regen: Variable Effects.

 

Done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I don't remember for certain, but I _think_ 6e regeneration is some sort of screwball Healing derivative; is it not?

 

No that was 5th edition, 6th is 2 points to regenerate 1 body per hour*, the cost rising by 2 points per step up the time chart faster.

 

 

*WEEK!

Edited October 9, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Hugh Neilson]

23 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I dont remember for certain, but I _think_ 6e regeneration is some,sort of screwball Healing derivative; is it not?

 

As CRT notes, that was a 5e experiment that was reversed in 6e.

 

23 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

At any rate, were I doing this in my game, I would use Regeneration as-is, except declaring that this instance of Regen is specifically for DEX (o4 whatever).  That just seems,the simplest place to start.  Modify as playtesting suggests.

 

BOD is likely reduced more often. STUN and END get reduced even more often than that, so gut feel, setting the same price feels excessive for other stats.

 

That could be fixed with the later edition Adjustment Power halving for defensive powers. Regen for DEX, STR, etc. would get 2 CP per time increment, unlike BOD (which costs 1 CP in 6e).  This would still be very pricy to regenerate all reduced characteristics.  It could be a bit cheaper if constructed as a Multipower - only one stat recovers at a time (multiple drains requiring the body to multitask).

 

30 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I think that for 6e- what with all characteristics costing the same and no characteristics derived from any others, this would be even less likely to cause problems.

 

All characteristics don't cost the same in 6e, but variable costs are no harder to work around than it is in any edition.

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

No that was 5th edition, 6th is 2 points to regenerate 1 body per hour, the cost rising by 2 points per step up the time chart faster.

 

2 points to regenerate 1 body per WEEK, not per hour.  +2 points per step up the chart.

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

That could be fixed with the later edition Adjustment Power halving for defensive powers. Regen for DEX, STR, etc. would get 2 CP per time increment, unlike BOD (which costs 1 CP in 6e).  This would still be very pricy to regenerate all reduced characteristics.  It could be a bit cheaper if constructed as a Multipower - only one stat recovers at a time (multiple drains requiring the body to multitask).

 

Why not just leave it with Variable Special Effect?  How often are multiple stats drained at the same time?  Doesn't feel like it'd be often enough to justify much in the way of Expanded Effect, it feels tailor made for VSE.  

 

Oh...never mind anyway.  Regen is a Special Power.  Can't be put into an MP.

[Hugh Neilson]

1 minute ago, unclevlad said:

Why not just leave it with Variable Special Effect?  How often are multiple stats drained at the same time?  Doesn't feel like it'd be often enough to justify much in the way of Expanded Effect, it feels tailor made for VSE.  

 

Oh...never mind anyway.  Regen is a Special Power.  Can't be put into an MP.

 

VSE sounds fairly priced.

 

Regen also can't regenerate things other than BOD, so we're already past "without GM permission" and into "special GM customization".

[unclevlad]

Just now, Hugh Neilson said:

 

VSE sounds fairly priced.

 

Regen also can't regenerate things other than BOD, so we're already past "without GM permission" and into "special GM customization".

 

Fair, but I'd really rather NOT allow Regen in a framework...altho if the framework is nothing but Regen variants, well, that might be OK.  If you want your regen to apply to all the stats, one at a time, the slot costs are going to be higher than the cost of the advantage.  Note that per-turn regen is 16, so the slots cost 2.  You're on the nasty side of the breakpoint.  But even if it was 1 per, there's more than 8 characteristics.

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Fair, but I'd really rather NOT allow Regen in a framework...altho if the framework is nothing but Regen variants, well, that might be OK.  If you want your regen to apply to all the stats, one at a time, the slot costs are going to be higher than the cost of the advantage.  Note that per-turn regen is 16, so the slots cost 2.  You're on the nasty side of the breakpoint.  But even if it was 1 per, there's more than 8 characteristics.

 

Agreed that I'd definitely be reviewing the cost for reasonableness. This is not an overpowering ability.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I'd really rather NOT allow Regen in a framework

 

Regeneration in a framework feels odd anyway; you only regenerate when you have the points allotted to it?

[Gauntlet]

15 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Regeneration in a framework feels odd anyway; you only regenerate when you have the points allotted to it?

 

I definitely agree, but I have allowed an increase in regeneration to be allowed in a multipower. 

[unclevlad]

Even the +1 Regen is getting pretty cheesy, because all you're paying for is the slot cost.  Even assuming the concept's a healer-type, where the notion is, if I'm not using my healing actively on someone else, my regen improves that much.  It's still cheesy.  You can go from 1 BODY per turn to 3 BODY per turn for 3 points...or heck, from 1 BODY per *segment* to 2 BODY per, for 2 points, and now that is having significant combat implications.  Granted that much of the issue is allowing the Regen per segment, but then...adding more for nothing?  And if it's a healing VPP, well, there may be no cost whatsoever.  

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

There was an additional Adjustment Power introduced in the Champions III supplement (not third edition Champions!) for first-gen, namely Power Destruction.  It was essentially Power Drain with a longer recovery, specifically that points were recovered at the same rate as BODY, and explicitly specifying that Regeneration helped recover Destroyed (Destructed?) points. 

 

(Champions III also included the rule that Adjustment Powers used against defensive abilities had their effectiveness halved.  It didn't call them Adjustment Powers, but it specified all of them, so.)

 

Edit to add:  I forgot to mention that Healing existed in Champions III as well, though neither it nor Power Destruction specified that Healing worked on it.  And also, Fantasy Hero 1e had the Restore spell effect, which was almost-but-not-quite the Can Heal Impaired/Disabling/Limbs adder, and it specified that it also worked against Destroyed Characteristics.  Same deal as with Healing, in that it was non-cumulative, so you'd need a bigger Restore for subsequent uses.  It didn't specify per wound, though I'd have used it like that, and the per-day reset time for Healing wasn't a thing then either, but I'd have included it with Restore if it were.  And!  Interesting bit of trivia that I think went unnoticed, by me at least, for almost 40 years.  Restore mentions the Time Chart!  I'm not sure where it was included in FH 1E, I'd guess probably in the section under Impairing and Disabling Wounds given that Restore mentions it.  (A quick look confirms this; FH 1E p. 83 has a d6 time chart for how long an Impairment lasts.)

Edited October 11, 2023 by Chris Goodwin
Adding some things

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I forgot to mention that Healing existed in Champions III as well, though neither it nor Power Destruction specified that Healing worked on it.

 

I always assumed healing worked on anything but the Restore power in Fantasy Hero was distinct from healing.  I love 1st edition Fantasy Hero so much I came ][ this close to doing something similar with my fantasy hero campaign books, but decided it was a needless complication that would harm sales.