Regenerating Characteristics Other than BODY

[Gauntlet]

Can anyone think of a way to create Regeneration in 6th Edition that regenerates characteristics other than BODY. There is no option to upgrade Regeneration to allow this, it will do BODY only. I had thought of using Healing, but you cannot make healing continuous as it states that you must use Regeneration for that. I am creating a character whose power will even regenerate damage done by some drains, such as poisons, or some types of cellular decay, or other things like this. I don't want to use Power Defense as that will just make her immune to it, and she is not. She still takes the drain fully, but can get it back faster than a normal person.

[steriaca]

Try a Triggered Healing or Aid.

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

Try a Triggered Healing or Aid.

 

Unfortunately, Aid will not work as it is not permanent. Triggered healing might be an option.

[Hugh Neilson]

When the rules get in the way of the fun, change the rules.  The easiest approach feels like either allowing Continuous on Healing (the reduced re-use time cost will still keep the recovery rate down).

 

Alternatively, what about a "time delay" limitation on Power Defense? It doesn't take Extra Time to activate, just Extra Time to reduce the Adjustment taken. That relies on the attack applying against Power Defense, though.

 

If it were my game, I'd look for a way to keep the cost down, even if it's handwavy, as I don't think this would come up all that often.  If these effects could be avoided entirely with 25 points of power defense, recovering faster should cost less than the 25 point cost of full immunity.

[Asperion]

The way I would do this would be to houserule a change with regen.  This would be Regen (Ability) where ability is the characteristic or power that gets regenerated according to regen rules. Otherwise there will be no other changes to the regen power. 

[Tech]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

When the rules get in the way of the fun, change the rules. 

 

 I couldn't agree more, Hugh.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah just use regeneration and keep a close watch on it.  Regeneration gives back one body per x time period; Body costs 1 CP per Body.  That means one character point of a stat per x time period; extrapolate from that.

[DShomshak]

A few Powers already can carry Advantages that they act based on EGO rather than some other Characteristics, such as STR or BODY. Giving such an Advantage to Regeneration seems reasonable to me.

 

Plus, Regeneration isn't on the Adjustment Power list but it acts like one in most ways. I don't see anything immediately abusive in applying standard Adjustment Power Advantages to it, such as altering which Characteristic it applies to, multiple Characteristics, etc. (Maybe there is, but I don't see it at the moment.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[GDShore]

Put a "Variable Advantage" onto the regeneration, this would allow you to vary which stat is being regenerated. Yes it increases the cost of the regen. but allows the regen. to affect more. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I don't see anything immediately abusive in applying standard Adjustment Power Advantages to it, such as altering which Characteristic it applies to, multiple Characteristics, etc.

 

The main concern I would have as a GM is that buying Regeneration at 1 CP per time increment is super efficient with the too-cheap cost for END.  For just the base regeneration bought down to once per phase (as shown in the Advanced Player's Guide) you get 5 END back per phase without a recovery.  Or 2 Stun.  That could fit a character concept although buying reduced END Cost is probably cheaper, but it is really inexpensive for a powerful boost.

 

Or you could buy this power
Regeneration (5 of any one stat), Any one Characteristic below normal (+1/2), Regenerate once per phase (+2) (35 Active Points)

This technically requires applying an advantage reserved for adjustment powers to Regenerate, but if you're going to allow it to apply to other characteristics then why not that as well?  That's just 35 points and every phase, one stat below normal -- presumably the lowest -- is healed 5 character points.  That's 25 END, 10 STN, etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

The main concern I would have as a GM is that buying Regeneration at 1 CP per time increment is super efficient with the too-cheap cost for END.  For just the base regeneration bought down to once per phase (as shown in the Advanced Player's Guide) you get 5 END back per phase without a recovery.  Or 2 Stun.  That could fit a character concept although buying reduced END Cost is probably cheaper, but it is really inexpensive for a powerful boost.

 

Who says we have to allow the APG reductions below once per turn?  How much for 1 CP Regeneration, once per phase?  How much REC could be purchased for that same price, if we made it END Only - which should be about -1? I have no problem telling a player who thinks they can manipulate the rules to get UberRec on the cheap "no, these powers are for things lacking an existing rapid recovery mechanism - use the normal recovery rules for END and STUN".

 

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Or you could buy this power
Regeneration (5 of any one stat), Any one Characteristic below normal (+1/2), Regenerate once per phase (+2) (35 Active Points)

This technically requires applying an advantage reserved for adjustment powers to Regenerate, but if you're going to allow it to apply to other characteristics then why not that as well?  That's just 35 points and every phase, one stat below normal -- presumably the lowest -- is healed 5 character points.  That's 25 END, 10 STN, etc.

 

Did that using continuous Aid back in 4e, but it was all stats below maximum.  We eventually modified it to align with the "below zero" recovery time chart.  Still very hard to keep down.  Here again, not allowing "per phase" solves a lot of the problem. Or just removing STUN and END from the list that can be recovered.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Who says we have to allow the APG reductions below once per turn?

 

Well obviously you do not, but its hard to argue against it if you're also allowing regeneration for other stats than Body, also from APG.  I just wanted to note the possible problems that could arise if you allow this, as requested.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[unclevlad]

The only time I ever even consider per-phase Regen is with a high-powered healer...the type where I define Damage Reduction or Negation as "heals so fast that it counters damage."  Regen has always had costing issues;  until you get to per turn, at least, it's *never* better to take 2 BODY per increment...improve the increment.  That speeds things up by a factor of (typically) 5.  The cost to have the regen go faster is just minimal.

 

Also note that if this can counter, say, a DEX drain...it's 2 CP to restore 1 point.  Regen at 1 per turn is 16 points per recovered character point.  So it'd be 2 turns for 1 point of DEX for 16 points...or 1 turn for 1 point of DEX, for 32 points.  This is before anything like Variable Effect to apply to any characteristic.

 

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Or you could buy this power
Regeneration (5 of any one stat), Any one Characteristic below normal (+1/2), Regenerate once per phase (+2) (35 Active Points)

This technically requires applying an advantage reserved for adjustment powers to Regenerate, but if you're going to allow it to apply to other characteristics then why not that as well?  That's just 35 points and every phase, one stat below normal -- presumably the lowest -- is healed 5 character points.  That's 25 END, 10 STN, etc.

 

I don't buy your cost breakdown.  1 CP of regen once per phase is 20 points...even allowing per-phase Regen, which is dubious.  Per turn, it's 16.  That's the base cost for that time interval.  You need to add Variable Effect, but it's slapped onto the entire basis.  AND, it's 1 CP per time interval.  Your costing suggests Regen 5 CP is 10 points...where's that coming from?  Your construction would suggest I can get 5 BODY regen every phase, for 35 points, and that's clearly bogus.

 

Just now, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Well obviously you do not, but its hard to argue against it if you're also allowing regeneration for other stats than Body, also from APG.

 

Why?  The two are not dependent on each other.  Per-phase BODY Regen...for only 4 more points than per-turn?  That's got major balance considerations.  Recovering from a Drain is much less problematic.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Your costing suggests Regen 5 CP is 10 points...where's that coming from? 

 

you're right, I expected it to be a lot more expensive, let me boot up Hero Designer and see what I did wrong.

 

... ah I see what I did. I built it as an advantage rather than a +2 adder per time step.  So its 30 points for each 1 CP recovered per phase, any characteristic below normal.

[unclevlad]

Well, that would be per segment.  Per phase is 18.  The major aspect is, it's just 1 CP's worth.

 

I'd at least consider

Regen, 1 CP per turn, with Variable Effect.  That's 24 points. 

 

Continuing on with the APG options...I wouldn't allow faster.  That's got too much potential to negate Drains pretty darn quickly.  Note that Delayed Return Rate is +1 to take it from per turn, to per minute.  Even with Regen 1 CP, per phase basically eradicates Delayed Return Rate...for nothing.

 

Note that per phase, or worse, per segment, just throws in abuse after abuse.  With Variable Effect, it's 5 END per phase OR segment...then when I need to, switch to STUN or BODY.  (No reason to say I can't assign what gets regenerated.)  But, it's the END.  5 per phase, that's a lot...even at high speeds, because it's per phase.  If you build to 6 and 7 SPD, you'll generally need significant Reduced END;  you're just talking too much END use per phase for REC alone to keep up.  But if we allow Regen END when we want it...not a problem.  8 END per phase for everything would be spending around 20 END, net, per turn.  Well within reasonable REC.  

 

But as long as it's kept to 1 CP per turn?  Variable Effect doesn't immediately raise big red flags that I can see.

[Hugh Neilson]

35 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

The only time I ever even consider per-phase Regen is with a high-powered healer...the type where I define Damage Reduction or Negation as "heals so fast that it counters damage."  Regen has always had costing issues;  until you get to per turn, at least, it's *never* better to take 2 BODY per increment...improve the increment.  That speeds things up by a factor of (typically) 5.  The cost to have the regen go faster is just minimal.

 

True.  This comes down to how fast we are prepared to allow healing in our game.  Regen had no costing issues in early editions - back me up, @Duke Bushido - because you paid a flat cost per BOD healed per turn.  No moving up or down the time chart, Regen worked per turn.  And it healed BOD.

 

Slowing it down is not cost-efficient as it was not designed to be slowed down, nor redesigned to balance slowing it down.

 

35 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Also note that if this can counter, say, a DEX drain...it's 2 CP to restore 1 point.  Regen at 1 per turn is 16 points per recovered character point.  So it'd be 2 turns for 1 point of DEX for 16 points...or 1 turn for 1 point of DEX, for 32 points.  This is before anything like Variable Effect to apply to any characteristic.

 

To toss in another option, maybe it is 1 CP to restore 1 DEX or to restore 2 INT because we apply the adjustment power halving rule for defensive stats.  I lean toward treating Regen as an adjustment power in this regard.

 

35 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Why?  The two are not dependent on each other. 

 

Agreed. It's a character sheet, not a tax return (where have I heard that before?).  Anyone trying to assert binding precedent against the GM shall suffer the fate of all Rules Lawyers.

 

35 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Per-phase BODY Regen...for only 4 more points than per-turn?  That's got major balance considerations.  Recovering from a Drain is much less problematic.

 

Not sold. Both make recovery of something way faster. Neither is "unbalanced" in isolation.  Do I expect the characters to take a lot of BOD damage, or am I playing a four-colour game and don't care if a character can recover 6 BOD a turn because they aren't likely to take enough BOD for it to matter.  Similarly, am I OK that this character has a massive advantage against a Drain-based opponent, especially one with delayed recovery rates?

Maybe "sure, no problem".  Maybe "sure to be a problem; no way".  Maybe "OK for this character but not for that one" due to other aspects of the two characters.

 

If I'm allowing per segment Regen, I have to do so knowing that this character will recover fast enough to trivialize these attacks.

 

But I also need to consider how this compares to 20 points invested in extra defenses, BOD only.  Investing that 30 points into Power Defense wouldn't leave much likelihood of being Drained in the first place.  These abilities massively mitigate certain damage types. Will it hurt my game to have them mitigated?  If not, who cares what mechanic they use to get there. 

 

If you want me to spend 24 CP to recover 1 more point per turn from a Drain, I think I'll just buy Power Defense instead.  That's also pretty effective against delayed recovery drains.

[Grailknight]

20 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Can anyone think of a way to create Regeneration in 6th Edition that regenerates characteristics other than BODY. There is no option to upgrade Regeneration to allow this, it will do BODY only. I had thought of using Healing, but you cannot make healing continuous as it states that you must use Regeneration for that. I am creating a character whose power will even regenerate damage done by some drains, such as poisons, or some types of cellular decay, or other things like this. I don't want to use Power Defense as that will just make her immune to it, and she is not. She still takes the drain fully, but can get it back faster than a normal person.

 

Hugh covers most of it very well. Here's some other options.

 

Just like Aid isn't permanent, neither is Drain. Buy an Aid with a Fade Rate equal to that of the Drain and limit it to Healing Drained abilities only.

 

 If that's too much, buy Power Defense with a Custom Limitation that makes it work similarly to Delayed Effect/Damage over Time. The defenses kick in over time.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Grailknight

[unclevlad]

I probably mis-spoke somewhat.  The root problem is allowing regen per phase or per segment.  It's just too great a step for MUCH too small a cost.

 

17 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If I'm allowing per segment Regen, I have to do so knowing that this character will recover fast enough to trivialize these attacks.

 

But I also need to consider how this compares to 20 points invested in extra defenses, BOD only.  Investing that 30 points into Power Defense wouldn't leave much likelihood of being Drained in the first place.  These abilities massively mitigate certain damage types. Will it hurt my game to have them mitigated?  If not, who cares what mechanic they use to get there. 

 

If you want me to spend 24 CP to recover 1 more point per turn from a Drain, I think I'll just buy Power Defense instead.  That's also pretty effective against delayed recovery drains.

 

It's not 20 points, or 24 points.  For taking out the Drain, at 1 CP per turn?  it's 8 for that.  Similarly, with per-segment Regen...yes, it's 20, but it's fixing BODY damage regardless of how it was inflicted...physical or energy, or AVAD Does BODY.  The Regen will always apply.  And, even the price of per-segment Regen isn't much...once you decide you want Regen in the first place, which is something quite separate.  What'll be the overall cost of your resistant defenses to blow off Regen altogether, because basically you never take BODY?  

 

You're assigning the full cost to one aspect alone, when there are multiple benefits.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The thing is, in combat, if you don't have at least per phase regeneration of Body, its not very useful.  Even once per turn is too slow to make much difference in a fight.

[Duke Bushido]

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

True.  This comes down to how fast we are prepared to allow healing in our game.  Regen had no costing issues in early editions - back me up, @Duke Bushido - because you paid a flat cost per BOD healed per turn. 

 

Sorry for the delay; most of my spare time the last few days has been dedicated to try8ng to find NOS body parts for a 25-year-old motorcycle.  Needless to say, it is not going well....

 

At any rate:

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

No moving up or down the time chart, Regen worked per turn.  And it healed BOD.

 

Hugh is correct (in several things, which I think we are generally used to, at this point.       );  in the saddlestitched editions, Regeneration was prices at 10 points per BODY recovered, and carried a (generally ignored) minimum cost of 20 points.

 

However, in these early editions, the character recovered 1 BODY _per Recovery_.  Thus, he regained one BODY (per 10 points in Regen) every post-12, which lines up with Hugh's assertion that he healed [flat amount] per Turn, but it overlooks the fact that with the phrasing of the rules, he also gained his Regen in BODY any Phase in which he took a Recovery.

 

And of course, you couldn't move it up or down the Time Chart because there was no Time Chart.  In the early editions, the powers that we would come to think of as Adjustment Powers had a cost mechanic for delaying their fade rates, but as you paid individually per _Phase_ of that delay, it got crazy expensive to hold onto your adjusted abilities very long.  Further, Regeneration had no such option within its mechanics, as it had no fade rate (suggesting that it isn't- or at least _wasn't_) an Adjustment Power (an assertion that I very much agree with).

 

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Slowing it down is not cost-efficient as it was not designed to be slowed down, nor redesigned to balance slowing it down.

 

Well...  

 

It could be made less expensive with the use of Limitations, but typically,they were custom limitations (most often, at least at the tables at which I played, was "not in combat," which GMs assigned a value from between -1.5 to -2, except for that jackass Duke, who assigned it a -1 to -1.5 depending on how long it took for the character to regenerate, and _insisted_ that if you did nit declare that you were spending that amount of time to regerate, then you, in fact, were not Regenerating.  He Also had the infuriating habit of pointing out that the character had to spend this time doing nothing, as the official write-up tied the power to taking Recovery, which had specific rules.  No "regenerate as I run down this hallway after the bad guy" stuff here, at least not without a pricey custom advantage. 

 

This Power also got soggy with the "Useable on others" Advantage:  in order for _them_ to heal, _you_ had to take a Recovery.  Fortunately, "Useable _by_ others popped up in the next book or two, and fixed that.   

 

at any rate, while it could be made more or less pricey, as Hugh points out, it really couldn't be made more cost effective: it was even cheaper that a Drain that fed your BODY:

 

let me introduce some of the more recent discoverers of HERO to the 2e Transfer Loophole:

 

in 1e and 3e and all editions after, the details of Transfer are nailed down pretty well (even if they seem,to vary with each one).  In 1e, the power called Characteristics Transfer and specified that you take from a characteristic of your choice and use the drained points to enhance in your character that same,characteristic.  Cost is based on the Characteristic being drained; roll the dice and whatever the total is, subtract that amount from a target's characteristic and add it to your same characteristic.  If 2d6 Drain: BODY rolled a 9, then 9 BODY was deducted and was added to the attacker's own BODY.

 

in 2e, the decision had been made to allow Transfering (and other Adjustment Powering) of any attribute a character had: BODY, STR, Flight, Power Defense-- whatever.  To achieve this, the verbiage grew and changed a bit.

 

Now, for the first time ever, you could drain from one ability and use it to feed an entirely different ability!  Another change was that you no longer drained or transferred power "levels" directly, but insted draind Power Points--  the actual character points spent into the ability.  This was actually completely necessary; outside or Characterisitics, most things are measured in Dice.  You cant drain 11 Energy Blast, because EB isn't listed or purchased that way.  However, if you drained 11 Power Points of EB, your target lost two dice, and you gained them.

 

These editions had no such thing as "maximum points adjusted" limits, so a popular 'take him out quick' attack was to T-fer or Drain STUN or BODY (I always like REC, myself) and use the points gwined to increase your Transfer, creating the Loop to Victory approach to drooping opponents in a hurry.

 

Two things remined the same:  you could not award the points to an attribute you did not already posses, and the pricing was based on the cost multiplier of whatever you were Adjusting. Non-characteristics were assumed to have a cost multiplier of 1.

 

so here came the loophole:

 

Transfer: Drain from END and add to X.

 

why?  Because END had a x1/2 cost multiplier!  The price for Transfer was (15pts x [cost multiplier], so if one targeted END, those 15 it's bought him _2_ dice of Transfer!  And since You were draining Power Points this time, it didnt _matter_ what you drained away from, because the points you gained came from the points spent on the ability:  if I Transfer 10 power points from END, it is still 10 power points, and it still nets me 2d6 of EB or up to 5 BODY.

 

Now suppose I opted to fuel BODY and pull from END.  For 15 Points, I can expect to _average_ 7 points-- power points-- which is 3.5 BODY restored.  This is the closest you ever got to a "better price" on Regerate BODY, where 20 points pts you regenerate 2 BODY._however_, it cost END by default, required an attack roll and physical contact, and began to fade _immediately_, so this build didnt come up often, and of course, a GM with _any_ Adjustment Powers experience would take a blowtorch to your character sheet.       .

 

This exception, so far as I remember, was not available in any other edition (becauae we gained even more verbiage)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

If you want me to spend 24 CP to recover 1 more point per turn from a Drain, I think I'll just buy Power Defense instead.  That's also pretty effective against delayed recovery drains.

 

 

Right there.  No matter what edition you are playing or how good you are with power modifiers, nothing is as cost-effective (with regard to Adjustment Powers) as Power Defense.

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

21 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If these effects could be avoided entirely with 25 points of power defense, recovering faster should cost less than the 25 point cost of full immunity.

 

This should be a Toolkit Principle.  Great point that I often overlook.

[Doc Democracy]

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

except for that jackass Duke, who assigned it a -1 to -1.5 depending on how long it took for the character to regenerate, and _insisted_ that if you did nit declare that you were spending that amount of time to regerate, then you, in fact, were not Regenerating.  He Also had the infuriating habit of pointing out that the character had to spend this time doing nothing, as the official write-up tied the power to taking Recovery, which had specific rules. 

What a douche!  You should have avoided his games....

[Cloppy Clip]

For some reason, Fifth Edition dropped Regeneration and replaced it with a specific Healing build. That made Regenerating characteristics other than BODY fairly easy to work out, so I'd probably go with Hugh's suggestion of treating Regeneration as an Adjustment power that heals 2 points.

 

On the topic of whether Regeneration per phase is too much, I'd say it's definitely a very different feel than limiting Regeneration to once per turn, but whether that's a bad thing or not depends on what sort of game you're playing. In previous editions (at least 4th and 5th, which are the ones I have), Delayed Return Rate started at +1/4, which makes long-lasting Drains much more of a thing to watch out for. In that case, having more reliable Regeneration of different characteristics would probably be justified, but if you're not expecting to deal with a lot of effectively-permanent Drains (like in most 6th Edition games, I'd guess), then it's probably going to take over the game a bit.

 

@Duke Bushido I didn't know that about 2nd Edition Transfer, but that's a good reminder to me that the HERO tradition of character builds that make your GM pull their hair out with stress goes back a long way!

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, Cloppy Clip said:

For some reason, Fifth Edition dropped Regeneration and replaced it with a specific Healing build. That made Regenerating characteristics other than BODY fairly easy to work out, so I'd probably go with Hugh's suggestion of treating Regeneration as an Adjustment power that heals 2 points.

 

On the topic of whether Regeneration per phase is too much, I'd say it's definitely a very different feel than limiting Regeneration to once per turn, but whether that's a bad thing or not depends on what sort of game you're playing. In previous editions (at least 4th and 5th, which are the ones I have), Delayed Return Rate started at +1/4, which makes long-lasting Drains much more of a thing to watch out for. In that case, having more reliable Regeneration of different characteristics would probably be justified, but if you're not expecting to deal with a lot of effectively-permanent Drains (like in most 6th Edition games, I'd guess), then it's probably going to take over the game a bit.

 

@Duke Bushido I didn't know that about 2nd Edition Transfer, but that's a good reminder to me that the HERO tradition of character builds that make your GM pull their hair out with stress goes back a long way!

 

If we dig into the history, 1e had only Regeneration - no Healing.  By 2e, Hero made a fantasy game - that needed a Healing power, and an Aid power (neither of which were in Supers yet). It stayed that way, I think, in 3e.

 

4e combined everything. Aid also healed, unless you limited it to only Healing. Anything in any of the old games made it into the new system [NOTE:  3e and prior, Hero published games; 4e, Hero published a system and games built using the system; 5e+, Hero published a game system and advice on how you could use it to design your own games.]

 

5e looked to do some streamlining.  Some of it worked.  Regen did not, in part because they had to tone down Healing, and that required Regen to have a handwave for the re-use period required to balance Healing better. 6e put Regen back, but its cost was higher, consistent with trying to build per-turn Healing.

 

I recall the 1e "Characteristic Drain/Transfer".  While you did not Drain CP directly, it worked that way indirectly as a STR Drain cost 10 points per 1d6, but a SPD drain cost 100 points per 1d6.  2e's broadening of Drain and Transfer required the direct use of CP to measure.

 

I had forgotten Regen was per recovery!

Maybe 5e should have built Regen as 1 REC, BOD only, moved up the time chart

Edited October 7, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

If you want me to spend 24 CP to recover 1 more point per turn from a Drain, I think I'll just buy Power Defense instead.  That's also pretty effective against delayed recovery drains.

 

Yeah the cost has to make sense, although its worth considering that regeneration gives you back stats no matter how they were reduced, so its broader than power defense.  Its extremely unlikely someone will reduce, say, Dexterity with anything but drain, but Stun and Body can be chipped away in any number of ways.