Everyman is a World-Class Sprinter

[Steven Wayde]

Psychological Complication:  obsessed with designing realistic world-class sprinter in Hero System (Common; Strong)

 

Thanks to Grailknight and unclevlad, who nailed it. I hadn't been factoring in the Noncombat Velocity rules. So I ran a few builds and came up with unclevlad's answer:

 

3 SPD, +8m Running = 18 points.

 

As unclevlad stated: the sprinter starts in Phase 12 and moves 20m; in Phase 4 he moves 40m (his NCV), and in Phase 8 runs an additional 40m for a total of 100m in 9 seconds (at a pace of 10m/Segment). This is just a little faster than the 100m real-world record of 9.58 seconds. Perfect for the Hero System. The build has the additional bonus of conforming to the recommended Normal Characteristic Maximum for Running (as befits a Competent, world-class sprinter) and doesn't force us into any unusual advantages or adders, which totally makes sense for a normal person. The SPD value falls puts us in the Skilled or Competent Normal range and leaves us with plenty of extra points for other Characteristics, Skills, etc. - a real person.

 

Other versions a normal person might have are below. I limited the Running Speed to 20m or less and the pace to 10m/Segment or slower.

 

For most builds, one extra point of Running winds up busting the world record:

 

2 SPD, +8m Running with Noncombat Acceleration/Deceleration = 28 pts

  - Max value for Running; expensive and only gets you 80m in 10 seconds.

 

2 SPD, +0 Running, x4 Noncombat Movement, Noncombat Acceleration/Deceleration = 10 pts

 - Less expensive but not fast enough and you have to mess around with adders and advantages - not something "Normal," but others might disagree.

 - This build gets you 96m in Phase 6 (7 seconds) at a pace of 8m/Segment.

 

4 SPD, +2m Running = 22 pts

 - More expensive but only gets you 98 meters in 10 seconds (at a pace of 9.33m/Segment); a world-record pace but not as good as 3 SPD with +8m.

 - 4 SPD also puts us into the "Standard Heroic" range.

 

4 SPD, +3m Running = 23 pts

 - This gets us a perfect 10m/Segment pace, but the distance covered in 10 seconds busts the world record a bit (the runner travels 105m in 10 seconds).

 - It's faster than our optimum build, costs more, and if this "Standard Heroic" athlete wants to prioritize SPD over Running, he'll win the Olympics.

 

4 SPD, +0 Running with Noncombat Acceleration/Deceleration = 32 pts

  - The cost is just silly and doesn't even get you to the world record; it gets us 96m in 10 seconds at a pace of 8m/Segment.

 

What else am I missing?

[unclevlad]

You're mixing up 2 completely different methods of considering time...in this context, the phased movement has to be treated as the TOTAL amount moved in the phase, NOT instantaneously, as we handle it in game.  Your SPD 3 = 9 seconds is incorrect, it's 12 seconds to cover the entire ground.  That's why you want to get to meters per segment;  you can handle time intervals less than a phase.

 

I messed up too...3 SPD with +8 running gives 100m in 12 seconds...ugh. My bad.  Brain cramp.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dmjalund]

starting blocks may aid in acceleration

as well as PS Runner

[unclevlad]

1 minute ago, dmjalund said:

starting blocks may aid in acceleration

as well as PS Runner

 

and.....?  how do the blocks work in-game?  How do you suggest making your PS roll apply?  

 

What you might want is movement levels with Running, as that allows improved acceleration...but we're pretty much allowing the full movement based on the velo.  This, and improved combat velo, allow you to reach full speed faster...meaning you get full velocity sooner for move-by and move-through and the like.  Noncombat accel comes close...we NEED to get up to full non-combat speed faster than the phases allows.  It's just stupid expensive in this context.  Or you go with, say, 1-2 levels with Running, for faster acceleration, and buy a stupid amount of running with multiple limitations.

[Steven Wayde]

Lightning Reflexes might have a role to get your nose over the finish line first, all things being equal. That’s a good place for some extra points.

 

Starting blocks might be a Naked Advantage for Noncombat Acceleration built as an immobile focus? Just some thoughts.

 

I also toyed around with builds with less than 10m/Segment then adding extra Running with increased END and Requires a Roll (PS: Sprinter) as a way to see which sprinter could eke out a few extra meters. Didn’t really make any builds less expensive at the scale I was working.

 

unclevlad, I don’t think any model is perfect because of how Running and Phases work in this game. As I was examining the various builds, I applied two methodologies:

 

1. I started counting distance on the free Phase 12 and stopped counting at Phase 9 to determine distance travelled at or by 10 seconds/segments. For SPD values 2 and 3, I stopped counting on their last Phase before 9 (technically, the sprinter could hold his Action until Phase 9 to make the final distance calculations all occur on the same Phase). Admittedly, this is different than counting distance in m/Segment.

 

2. I evaluated the ultimate NCV pace per Segment only as a means to constrain the NCV. I discarded results with average movement faster than 10 meters per segment to reflect the real world limit.

 

All that said, I might look at it again tomorrow unless I make my EGO roll to avoid my Psych Complication.

[mallet]

I would say that a race is a form of combat between two or more competitors  (not all combat needs to be punching or shooting each other) so racing shouldn't use "noncombat" speeds or rules. 

 

Lightning Reflexes should be used to see "who goes first" in the combat as the difference between first and second (or third) in most professional sprints is a matter of milliseconds and who reacts and gets off the blocks first often wins in short sprints like 50 or 100 meter. In this sense it is much like a duel in the wild west. Who draws first/fastest often wins if everything else is equal. 

 

In a real race blocks should be considered necessary equipment, just like shoes. Using them is standard and allows you to do your best, not using them should have a negative effect.

[unclevlad]

Are we talking about what it takes to win the Olympic-level sprint...or just how fast they're going?  Because we're talking things that are far too fine-scaled for the system.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Almost without exception, it is extremely difficult to model athletic competitions and sports using game rules.  Just try to work out how you would handle something as straight forward as pitching a ball to someone trying to hit it.

 

Just batting an object someone throws is not immediately clear in Hero or any other game, but adding in things like change in velocity, direction of throw, spin of the ball creating movement, etc makes it even more complicated.  And this is something most people grew up with just doing in their back yard.

[unclevlad]

And not only do you have to make contact, how well do you do so?  A little league pitcher can manage 60 mph;  that's not even remarkable.  60 mph is 88 feet per second.  The 12 year old batter has to time it to square his bat to the ball at the proper moment...which is around 1/30th of a second long.  And have the bat positioned to not just hit the ball...but hit its centerline.

 

Hitting a baseball is often considered the most difficult physical activity in all sports.  There's other things:  the golf swing is often considered the most biomechanically complex movement.  So many things have to be in sync...and to an incredibly precise degree.  At the other end of the hole...reading the green for a putt.  Gauge the break...gauge the speed.  As the ball rolls across the green, gravity works, cumulatively, with time.  Faster putt, less time...less break.  A long putt, struck hard, doesn't immediately roll;  it can slide...it won't take the break until it starts to roll.  And this has to be resolved down to a tiny margin for error...the golf hole is 4.25".  You must reach the hole...but if it's moving relatively quickly (meaning you need to consider the speed of the greens), you don't have that much area.  But even on the simplest, straight putt...at 20 feet, your aim has to be accurate to about 1 degree.

 

No RPG system is going to get sufficiently nuanced...even if it could be...to support this.

[Christopher R Taylor]

And what happens when you hit the ball?  How is it a grounder instead of a fly ball?  What direction does it go?  All of that is tied into what kind of pitch in what location against what kind of batter with what kind of swing and what kind of contact.

 

Which is why you use something like PS: Baseball Player instead of trying to simulate it with combat.

[Hugh Neilson]

If we wanted to design a game of major league baseball, I suspect we would have very different characteristics and maneuvers from the Hero System's combat resolution model.  This is not all that different from trying to simulate a medical research scenario, a legal/courtroom drama or a police procedural - these are just "roll the skill" in a typical game, because they are not the focus of the challenges to the characters.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think it would be a fascinating undertaking to build a "combat" system usable to simulate athletic competitions, but I don't actually think its possible, at least not without heinous amounts of math and rules and engineering.

[Gauntlet]

1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think it would be a fascinating undertaking to build a "combat" system usable to simulate athletic competitions, but I don't actually think its possible, at least not without heinous amounts of math and rules and engineering.

 

And in addition, who really would want to play an athletic competition-based game? This may just be one of those things you don't worry about.

[unclevlad]

You might be able to do, say, simpler events like running...but not easily, because the differences are *rather* small.  Watch an elite 100m race...the 2020 gold medal race.  Finish times?  9.80, 9.84, 9.89, 9.93, 9.95, 9.98.  One runner was DQ'd for a false start, the other listed as DNF.  I'm assuming that's a popped hamstring...it is something I've seen from time to time.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/01/sports/olympics/marcell-jacobs-italy.html

 

This article also shows the reaction times...the fastest reaction time finished 2nd, and the winner's reaction time was the 2nd worst.

 

But note how small these gaps are, both elapsed and reaction times.  This is just at a level of time granularity FAR finer than we care about.

[Hugh Neilson]

21 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

And in addition, who really would want to play an athletic competition-based game? This may just be one of those things you don't worry about.

 

Those seeking this level of granularity would seem to be the ones who would want to play an athletic competition-based game.  You'd think those of us still playing "let's pretend" swordfighting, cowboys & indians, cops & robbers, war or superhero games into and beyond middle age might not look down their noses at what other people find a good use of their leisure time...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I could enjoy a game of MLB, with the life stuff going on behind the scenes, the training, the games (basically combat), etc.  Its a valid form of role playing as any other, just not necessarily for everyone.

[Gauntlet]

58 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Those seeking this level of granularity would seem to be the ones who would want to play an athletic competition-based game.  You'd think those of us still playing "let's pretend" swordfighting, cowboys & indians, cops & robbers, war or superhero games into and beyond middle age might not look down their noses at what other people find a good use of their leisure time...

 

I really kinda think not. Those are competitions yes, but different than just a competition. Those are battles of life and death (or at least going to jail or not), the combatants are not just looking to win a medal. 

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I really kinda think not. Those are competitions yes, but different than just a competition. Those are battles of life and death (or at least going to jail or not), the combatants are not just looking to win a medal. 

 

The players' lives are in no way at risk, nor do they have medals, wealth, championships or much else at stake. I'm not ashamed of my hobby, but it does not enjoy some inherent superiority over hobbies that others may enjoy.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Gauntlet]

On 10/14/2023 at 1:41 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

The players' lives are in no way at risk, nor do they have medals, wealth, championships or much else at stake. I'm not ashamed of my hobby, but it does not enjoy some inherent superiority over hobbies that others may enjoy.

 

I am not talking concerning real life, I am talking about having fun. Playing a game where your character is in no way at risk is completely boring. I was just saying that playing a game where your character is in a competition that has no complete consequences would be rather boring, and I am talking about playing a game, not someone who actually takes the incredible amount of time and effort to be able to truly compete in a real worldly event. Just like other real-life positions, like being a fire fighter, incredibly brave, but not fun as a role-playing game.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think that if you have ever played a competitive sport, you have a better grasp on why someone might enjoy this kind of game.

[Gauntlet]

19 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think that if you have ever played a competitive sport, you have a better grasp on why someone might enjoy this kind of game.

 

I have. I have run several marathons, even done Tough Mudder four times. Had a great time, especially doing the absolutely crazy obstacles in it. But still don't think it would be fun to role-play it. It is something you have to do to have fun. Now you might say then what's the difference in sword fighting in Fantasy Hero rather than sword fighting in real life (such as done in the SCA which I have also done). The difference is when role-playing, it is about the storyline, not the actual competition. I love creating a story with the GM and the other players.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The difference is when role-playing, it is about the storyline, not the actual competition. I love creating a story with the GM and the other players.

 

And it is your position that the competition could not be the "combat" portion of a campaign with other stories?

[Gauntlet]

4 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

And it is your position that the competition could not be the "combat" portion of a campaign with other stories?

 

I will definitely have to give you that. I am just saying that it cannot be all of it.

[Steven Wayde]

I think it’s fun to imagine how one or more of our characters for this game would stack up against a world class athlete. So, for instance, could a Daredevil or Batman type character compete at the Olympics? It’s an entertaining concept, I think.

[MrAgdesh]

On 10/9/2023 at 1:35 AM, Steven Wayde said:

Thus, our Everyman need only condition himself to get a SPD 4 to easily achieve a world-class sprint with no investment in REC, END, or Running required! Who knew Carl Lewis had the same Running Movement value as the rest of us?

 

If you think that humans *can* condition themselves to that level. Speed 4 is the speed and reflex time of the Great Cats. If you look in the Bestiary, there aren't any other natural creatures with Speed 4. To be Speed 4 your reaction time is on a par with these animals. You're Tarzan, Doc Savage, Conan the Barbarian. Literary heroes.

 

Not Usain Bolt.

 

I mean, perhaps the world's greatest ever sprinter, but if he were to try and out-manoeuvre a hungry lion..?