Everyman is a World-Class Sprinter

[Steven Wayde]

Did you know that RAW, Everyman in the Hero System is capable of a world class sprint?

 

Here’s how:

 

The world record sprint is 100m in 9.58 seconds. For purposes of this discussion and ease of calculation, we will round up to 10 seconds. Thus, a person who covers 100m in 10 seconds is essentially a world class sprinter (true!).

 

Assume the following:

 

1.      Our Everyman sprinter is using Noncombat Movement in his race. RAW tells us, “A character using Noncombat Movement concentrates on moving swiftly, not on finding targets or dodging attacks” (6E1 155). Furthermore, “If a character moves at Noncombat velocities, the END cost equals the END he uses to move at Combat velocities” (6E2 25).

2.     Our sprinter is Everyman and subject to the recommended Characteristic Maxima (6E1 50).

3.     Our sprint will begin on Segment 12 and allow for a post-Segment 12 recovery as per 6E2 18.

4.     We accept the RAW on Pushing (i.e. not allowed) per 6E2 133-134 (it’s not needed anyway).

 

To execute a world-class sprint, our sprinter needs to cover 100m by the end of Segment 9 (that’s the Segment 12 start, plus 9 more Segments = 10 Segments). Assume a max human SPD of 4 (okay, so he’s not exactly an Everyman) and we can calculate our Everyman sprinter needs a Running Movement of 25m (25m in Segment 12, then another 25m in Segments 3, 6, and 9 = 100m in 10 Segments).

 

So he needs a Running value of 25m – over double the starting value! This is not Everyman; this is Carl Lewis!

 

But wait! The sprint is Noncombat Movement! Therefore the Combat Movement would be half of 25m, say 12-13m, which puts us back at the baseline Everyman Running value. This is just a normal guy jogging through the neighborhood. Additionally, the END cost for this grueling sprint is quite relaxing. Our sprinter would burn only 1 END for each Phase he uses Running. No problem!

 

Thus, our Everyman need only condition himself to get a SPD 4 to easily achieve a world-class sprint with no investment in REC, END, or Running required! Who knew Carl Lewis had the same Running Movement value as the rest of us?

How do we make it more realistic?

We don’t. But I sure do enjoy examining how the Hero System would work in real life. Here are some ideas I played around with and ultimately abandoned to spend more time with my family:

 

1.      Assume the sprint uses Combat Movement values. That’s an easy fix, but doesn’t fit the intent of Noncombat Velocity – which would still double our sprinter’s Movement value (when nobody’s looking?)

2.     Eliminate Noncombat Movement from the rules (nah)

3.     Reduce the SPD Characteristic Maximum

4.     Divorce SPD from Movement entirely (I think I’ve read some thoughts on that in this forum elsewhere)

5.     Lower the initial value of Running to reflect the real-world Movement limitations of Everyman’s bad ankles and knees

6.     Increase the END cost for Running to reflect how Everyman can’t even run 100m without stopping short of the finish line and throwing up

7.     Combine some of the above to allow for a world-class sprinter to Push in the last Phase of the race and eke out a few tenths of a second and…complicated…I wonder what my kids are up to?

[Lord Liaden]

8.)   Consider the suggested Characteristic ranges for the Average human from the 6E Champions genre book p. 72: SPD 1-2, Running 7-12 meters. By the time you get to SPD 4 you're already in the Competent range: "Normal people can sometimes edge into Competent, but usually Competent-level Characteristics result from intensive training, truly rare genetic gifts, or the like. Many heroes, even in Heroic campaigns, have a majority of their Characteristics in this range or higher — that’s one of the things that makes them heroes." Champions 6E p. 71.

[unclevlad]

Someone with SPD 4 is NOT Everyman.  SPD 4 is not just conditioning, it's baseline reaction times, recovering quickly, and the like.  Of all the characteristics, the one I'm disinclined to move up much is SPD, for so-called normal people.  Standard SPD is 2, so this guy is doing anything he wants to do, twice as often.  SPD 4 is Competent Normal...about 100 points.  It's the range, say, of higher-level martial artists, more often.

 

Oh, and to simplify things?  Compute the distance covered per turn...forget the phases-related stuff, it just makes things a mess.  We're not on phases.  To get 100 meters in 10 seconds, we need 120 meters per turn...10 meters per phase.  Per turn is just simpler, it's just SPD x non-combat velo.  We don't care about post-12's either.  

 

SPD 3, 15m running using the free NCM...90 meters per turn.

SPD 4, 12m...96 meters per turn.  

 

I'd usually give a runner no more than SPD 3.  20m of running...that gives 120m per turn.  Focus the strengths of a specialist in the specialization...not in things that have far broader applicability.  Heck, you can argue for SPD 2, 15m run speed...and another non-com multiplier.  That's also 120m per turn.  Along with, perhaps, some Lightning Reflexes to get off the blocks.  These are the kinds of things sprinters train for.  

 

See, I go the other way altogether.  Rather than worry that normals are too fast...I say supers aren't fast *enough*.  With 5 SPD and only the baseline 12m and standard non-com?  That's still only 120m per turn.  It's not horrible, but man, with that 5 SPD???  I'm not even asking for racing car speeds...200 mph is a bit over 3 miles per minute.  That'd be about 5000 meters per minute...or 1000 meters per turn.  To get that with a 5 SPD, we're talking 200 meters per phase.  That's likely 25 meters, with 2 additional non-coms...a fair bit of points there.  That said, by and large, it's not clear how many comic book supers have even this level of velocity.  Certainly, many don't.  So...it's no big deal. 

[dmjalund]

would using Long Term Endurance change the math?

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

8.)   Consider the suggested Characteristic ranges for the Average human from the 6E Champions genre book p. 72: SPD 1-2, Running 7-12 meters. By the time you get to SPD 4 you're already in the Competent range: "Normal people can sometimes edge into Competent, but usually Competent-level Characteristics result from intensive training, truly rare genetic gifts, or the like. Many heroes, even in Heroic campaigns, have a majority of their Characteristics in this range or higher — that’s one of the things that makes them heroes." Champions 6E p. 71.

 

In other words, edging into those maximum SPD and running values values reflects someone with rare genetic gifts related to sprinting engaging in intensive training to make the most of them - sounds a lot like an Olympic-level sprinter to me.

 

6 hours ago, dmjalund said:

would using Long Term Endurance change the math?

 

My first thought as well, but he's running less than a turn, so it could prevent multiple world-class times in rapid succession, but not a single sprint.

[unclevlad]

Rather than LTE, it might be better to think of a dead sprint *as* Pushing, to a degree...so you have significant END use, even if we're only talking a 2 or 3 SPD.  There's no dropoff in speed going to 200 meters; it's 19.19.  400 meters...there's a bit.  The record's 43 seconds.  And the 800 record is 100 seconds;  that top effort can't be maintained for long at all.  So it's reasonable to say that there's perhaps slightly less Pushing going on.  

 

And that illustrates a difference between the talented normal and most supers.  The super can keep up a pace for much longer.  That 10 meters per second would be sustainable until LTE might be an issue...4 SPD, 15m run, x2 NC for the 10 meters per second.  It's only 8 END per turn.  Even with relatively low REC and END, this should be sustainable for a couple minutes...and with many, almost indefinitely.  With a 10 REC, LTE loss is only 1 END per minute.  Our super isn't nominally faster over a short distance...but can keep it up.  800?  80 seconds.  1500?  150 seconds (record's 205).  5000 meters, still just 500 seconds, instead of about 750.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

I prefer the "pushing is not something anyone and everyone can do if they are willing to spend the END" model. It's a rare moment for especially heroic actions, not a quick way to tack on an extra 2 DCs in the hopes of ending the fight faster.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Lord Liaden]

12 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I prefer the "pushing is not something anyone and everyone can do if they are willing to spend the END" model. It's a rare moment for especially heroic actions, not a quick way to tack on an extra 2 DCs in the hopes of ending the fight faster.

 

And since at least 4E that's been explicitly stated in the RAW.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah every man is speed 2, so anything beyond that is necessarily someone with extraordinary ability and/or training

[Hugh Neilson]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I prefer the "pushing is not something anyone and everyone can do if they are willing to spend the END" model. It's a rare moment for especially heroic actions, not a quick way to tack on an extra 2 DCs in the hopes of ending the fight faster.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

And since at least 4E that's been explicitly stated in the RAW.

 

I'm pretty sure it's always been in the rules somewhere - as I recall, an early edition used the "mom who lifts up a car" example - remove the stress and her endangered child and she could never do it again.

 

@Duke Bushido would know (sorry, leaning on you a lot lately, Duke!)

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think it was always at least implied that it was up to GM discretion when you could push or not.  I use the 4th edition rule for heroic settings is 5 points if you make an Ego roll, then 1 more per point you make your roll by
 

Quote

 

1st-2nd edition:

Occasionally a character may need to exceed the normal limits of his powers to perform a heroic action.

 

 

Quote

 

3rd edition adds:

The GM can require the hero to make an EGO Roll to be able to Push his Powers; perhaps a maximum of 5 Power Points of Push for every 1 point the EGO Roll is made by.

 

Quote

 

4th edition also divides heroic and superheroic campaigns, adding:

Pushing in superheroic campaigns is a much more common occurrence.

 

 

Quote

 

5th edition puts a lot more detail into it, noting things like:

 

a player must declare that his character is Pushing before he makes an Attack Roll

a character cannot more than double a Power’s Active Points by Pushing

the character doesn’t have to reduce the Pushing eff ect to account for the Advantages

a character normally cannot Push to obtain extra Noncombat Movement or apply an Adder to a Power

characters can only use Pushing for crucial, heroic, or life-saving actions. Characters, even heroes and PCs, cannot Push whenever they want to just to look impressive

, Pushing is only for heroes and important NPCs. Th e average man — even the best athletes and warriors — can never Push... Only in situations requiring true heroism and sacrifi ce can a normal person Push, and only then at the GM’s discretion

 

 

I think the "only in proper situations" was always assumed but wasn't really written out in detail until 5th edition

[unclevlad]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I prefer the "pushing is not something anyone and everyone can do if they are willing to spend the END" model. It's a rare moment for especially heroic actions, not a quick way to tack on an extra 2 DCs in the hopes of ending the fight faster.

 

Sure...but that's to a combat application.  For something outside combat, as in the running case here, and allowing it in *narrow* applications...that's different.

 

Another construction would be an additional few meters of running with seriously increased END cost.  That works too, and stays away from Pushing.  

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Sure...but that's to a combat application.  For something outside combat, as in the running case here, and allowing it in *narrow* applications...that's different.

 

Another construction would be an additional few meters of running with seriously increased END cost.  That works too, and stays away from Pushing.  

 

In or out of combat - that Mom trying to heft a car isn't in combat.

 

A bit of additional running at extra END as the product of extensive training?  Sure.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

@Duke Bushido would know (sorry, leaning on you a lot lately, Duke!)

 

 

Think nothing of it, Sir.  It'a nice to have a chance to pull my own weight around here now and again, seeing as how I am _passignly_ familiat with 4e, and useless for anything after that. 

 

First edition- and even though I havent played 1e in decades, I will never forget this- said "ocaisionally."

 

That'a why I wont forget It!  Hey, GM, when can I do this?  Jim.. Ocaisionally.  Don't make it a habit.  If I recall there is only like two sentences of guidelines.  Wait; let me get my book....

 

Okay, 1e p35, right column, last entry.  Nope.  Only _one_ sentence of guidelines:

 

"Occasionally a character may need to exceed the normal limits if his powers to perform a heroic action."

 

That's it,  this is followed by two sentences of instruction and an example.

 

Now to be fair, that single sentence does imply both that this should nit be done routinely and that it is best reserved for not an action or an action taken by a HERO, but a heroic action-  something perhaps with the air of "either this works or I die trying."  Granted, that is all simole implication (when you craft a sentence properly, you can get enough information in it that you really don't need two thousand pages explaining it.  At least, so ling as your audience can _parse_ a sentence well.....

 

At any rate, the examole given if a HERO pyshing his STR to be just barely,avle to hild up a wall long enough that an old lady can escape-  again, it drives home that Hail Mary aspect of pushing.

 

Now I know 2e by heart, and without looking, I can tell you that it is the exact same thing with a few more words in each sentence (the HERO gets a name- "Golden Swordsman," if you were wondering), etc, but it is essentially the same exact rules and example.

 

I also know that Champions II, while it added some new wrinkles to combat, added nothing to Pushing, nor dis Champions III (I just double-checked C-3; I dont use it as much and wasn't certain)

 

3e is a little more detailed again, although the three-sentence rules (identical to 2e, and found on p78, last entry of the perfect bound softcover or same place in the saddlestitched rules book from the boxed set) and the same wall-on-an-old-lady example is punched up a bit and now features a HERO named Brick (in spite of the existence of a villain named Brick, or perhaps Brick's heel turn had reversed; I dont know).

 

It is interesting to note that two pages prior to this entry there is a whole new (for this edition) section called "adding damage," and that section mentions Pushing by name.  However, mostly it says Pushing, Martial Arts, Skill Levels, maneuvers, whatever might add to STR damage- cannot be used to morw than double "normal" STR damage.  (It also says that if your STR is bought Armor Piercing, then for every addition,an 1.5 DC of damage, you may add only 1 DC.  There is no mention of if this additional damage is AP or not, but given the dice reduction, I would assume so.  I consider this do be the first official statement that any added damage must have the same modifiers as the base damage.

 

I would like to note that all 3 of the old editions set a hard lumit of 10 points on Pushing.

 

4e I remember well enough to state that Pyshing was divided into "super" and "heroic," with Heroic requiring an EGO roll (with any modifiers the GM found appropriate).  The character could push by 5 pts if the EGO roll is successful, and may add one point for every point by which he made his EGO roll.  No; I am serious: there is no enforced upper limit beyond what the dice say (though with heroic characters, outlandishly high EGO scores arent terribly likely).  I will have to double-check, but I do not think it gives advice on skill levels for this roll, but I can tell you that I have had more than one player try to push his EGO and then try to push something else with his no-higher EGO.  no; I never allowed that.

 

okay, just pulled the book down and looked.  For rhose following along a5 home, it is BBB p 169: Pushing.

 

interesting things to note:

 

The first formal rule that characters must declare a push _before_ checking for success, and are kiable dor the END of the push regardless of success (keep 'em honest, Bruce!)

 

Gone are the suggestions of "occasionally" or noble sacrifice.  It simply says a character may push his STR.  It mentions the possibke inclusion of GM-assigned modifiers, and towars the end of the paragraph, it says essentially 'don't do this too muc' without guidqnce on what you much might be, though it suggests the GM assign negative modifiers should a character do it 'roo much", as defined by the GM apparently.

 

lots more mechanics and technicalities, but less actual advice.

 

for Super games, it states outeight that pushing is much more common, which is eather stealing a bit of the noble sacrifice angle or implying that any character you build should not be enough to face the world in which he lives; I cant say which.  Other than that, there is no EGO roll required, and it is capped at 10 additional points, with a final sentence stating that the GM may allow pushes of greater than 10 in "unusual circumstances, such as saving the universe," so maybe mundane pushing is pretty common after all.

 

Oh, and in the same,old wall / old lady example, the hero is now Jaguar.

 

 

hope something there helped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steven Wayde]

Duke, I remember the rules for Pushing when an EGO Roll was required and the limit on extra points. I think that’s what influenced my thoughts on how one might bake that into a world-class athletic achievement. I kinda dig the idea that each world-class athlete is invested at the Characteristic Max for his discipline and needs to Push to get that extra little bit that often separates top finishers.

[Duke Bushido]

You know, that is actually pretty accurate!

 

When you see a sporting competition (the kind that doesn't involve engines or any sort of sport ball), you generally have pretty equally,matched competitors.  Their onky shot at outdoing each other is pushing, and pushing hard.

 

Neat.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I kinda dig the idea that each world-class athlete is invested at the Characteristic Max for his discipline and needs to Push to get that extra little bit that often separates top finishers.

 

What is interesting is that the rules state that an athlete cannot push to get a better score, but only in heroic circumstances, like swimming to save a baby from drowning 

[LoneWolf]

The other thing that is not factored in is acceleration and deceleration.   It takes at least an extra segment to get the even x2 NCM.  So, on phase 12 the sprinter can move his full combat movement, on his next phase he can accelerate up to twice his combat movement.  As other have pointed out everyman should have a 2 SPD.   That means he move 36m in a turn.  

 

According to my calculation a character with 2 SPD and 12M running can run at about slightly over 8.5 miles per hour.   A quick check through an AI search said the average man runs around 8 MPH.  It seems like Hero System is fairly accurate.
 

[Gauntlet]

31 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

The other thing that is not factored in is acceleration and deceleration.   It takes at least an extra segment to get the even x2 NCM.  So, on phase 12 the sprinter can move his full combat movement, on his next phase he can accelerate up to twice his combat movement.  As other have pointed out everyman should have a 2 SPD.   That means he move 36m in a turn.  

 

According to my calculation a character with 2 SPD and 12M running can run at about slightly over 8.5 miles per hour.   A quick check through an AI search said the average man runs around 8 MPH.  It seems like Hero System is fairly accurate.
 

 

I definitely agree with LoneWolf and even go as far as saying that it actually is even closer as that 12m running is for the High End of normal people (someone who may a few times a week take a run around the block). Just like STR has an average value of 6 to 10 for normals, running has an average ranging from 7m to 12m. So that completely normal person may only have 10m of running which would put them just 7.46 MPH.

[Gauntlet]

For your base characteristic for a new character, you start at the maximum of what is considered normal. A true normal (such as that teller at the grocery store) probably won't have all the top characteristics like a starting player character. In most cases it probably will be as follows (or even lower for some items):

• STR 8
• DEX 8
• CON 8
• INT 8
• EGO 8
• PRE 8
• OCV 3
• DCV 3
• OMCV 3
• DMCV 3
• SPD 2
• PD 2
• ED 2
• REC 4
• END 15
• BODY 8
• STUN 18
• Running 10
• Swimming 2
• Leaping 2

Player characters get to start at the maximum of normal and move up from there.

[LoneWolf]

The normal human maximum is the point that above this the character is getting into the superhuman range.  Characters with a high SPD that are supposed to be normal humans should consider buying down their movement unless they are supposed to be world class athletes. Part of the problem is that the SPD’s of most published characters are too high.  This is probably because the earlier editions of the game most of the opponents were written like that and it carried over into the later editions.  What people don’t seem to realize is that SPD is a relative stat.  

 

If you lower the SPD of all characters equally the end result is pretty much the same.   In fact, it often ends up better for the PC’s because it reduces a lot of problems like END usage and other long-term issues. Don’t forget that almost all actions cost at least 1 END including firing a gun or using a defensive action like dodge or block.  Movement also costs END, so a character needs 2 x their SPD in REC or they start losing END quickly.  If the character is using powers that require more END than 1 it is even worse.     
 

[Steven Wayde]

Geez, I thought of another way look at this issue: what's the least expensive way to build a world-class sprinter?

 

Answer: 13 points!

 

Buy 13m of Running at SPD 2 to get 50m of Noncombat Movement. That's a velocity of 100m/Turn...you're in the running for a gold medal!

 

With a limit of 100m/Turn as the max allowable (world-record pace for a normal human), the variables are:

 

SPD 2, +13m Running = 13 pts (50m Noncombat Running = 100m/Turn...perfect!)

SPD 3, +4m Running = 14 pts (32m Noncombat Running = 96m/Turn...more expensive and too slow)

SPD 3, +5m Running = 15 pts (34m Noncombat Running = 102m/Turn...more expensive and breaks the 100m/Turn limit...just barely)

SPD 4, +0m Running = 20 pts (24m Noncombat Running = 96m/Turn...more expensive and too slow)

SPD 4, +1m Running = 21 pts (26m Noncombat Running = 104m/Turn...more expensive and breaks the 100m/Turn limit)

 

So you can build Carl Lewis as a 13 point character! Easy!

[Grailknight]

Nah, you can only accelerate to 25 on your first movement from 0. You'd need to add Noncombat Acceleration to cover the distance in two moves.

[LoneWolf]

Good point about the Noncombat Acceleration.   I think you also have to apply this advantage to the base characteristic as well.  That puts the cost to 38 points.  But a real Olympic runner would not have that so they would need more movement and or SPD to achieve the same result.  

[unclevlad]

Nope.

 

Easiest, cheapest build is buy another non-combat mulitplier, as your baseline.  So you're at x4 your combat move...48 per turn.  OK, not quite enough, so buy +1m.

 

You do still need the full +1 noncombat accel, tho.  However, you DON'T have to pay the points for the base non-combat.  So, it'd cost a total of 24 this way...+1 meter is 1, the non-com movement is 5.  That's 6, so the basis cost for the non-com accel is 18.  Total, 24.

 

Actually, we can possibly do cheaper.  3 SPD, +8m running for 20.  First phase:  20 meters.  Second phase:  40 meters.  Third phase:  40 meters.  18 points.  The kicker here is that we're talking no time in game terms.  Imp Noncombat Movement is fine when there's more time...in this context...the 200m might be close, but the 400m would definitely last long enough to start with x4 non-combat movement.  Again, a 3 SPD gets us moving at top speed much more quickly.  3 SPD is 10, 5 for the Imp Noncom Move.  Turn 1:  1, 2, 3x base move.  Turn 2, 4, 4, and 4x.  End of 2 turns, we've moved 18x our base move, so 216.  Turn 3 is 4, 4, and 4x again...another 144 meters.  So we're at 360 meters in 36 seconds, and moving 48 / 3 or 16 meters per second.  So we're at 38 seconds.  And this cost 15 points.

 

Now, neither of these matches real-world sprinting;  yes, it takes some time to reach the absolute, top speed...the 60 meter world record is slightly UNDER 10 meters per second, rather than over...but the Hero rules don't work that way...without non-combat acceleration, at least.