If you . . .

[Asperion]

Here we will present a situation that you might find you in. If you have the ability to accept,  will you go for it? If yes, what repercussions will occur? If not,  how reject? Recommend time for response will be one week,  but if sufficient response comes in,  can change earlier. 

 

Let's start: can get on the TARDIS,  what is your decision?

[Sketchpad]

3 hours ago, Asperion said:

Let's start: can get on the TARDIS,  what is your decision?

 

Absolutely. 

[Asperion]

Would be like Donna was  - need to be pushed into it. Then I would want to get off.

[Grailknight]

Nope. Not unless I can see the suit of plot armor that all the Doctor's companions wear to survive even one episode.

[DentArthurDent]

No. I have too many people I would not leave behind.

 

However … if I could take a party of eight .. hmmmm

[Asperion]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:01 PM, DentArthurDent said:

No. I have too many people I would not leave behind.

 

However … if I could take a party of eight .. hmmmm

 

Would have to talk to the Doctor. Going back to Hartnel, the most companions at one time was a group of four people. 

 

NT: [year: 1912]  Great liner getting ready to launch newest ship - Titanic. You have first class tickets for voyage. Will you embark?

[unclevlad]

7 hours ago, Asperion said:

NT: [year: 1912]  Great liner getting ready to launch newest ship - Titanic. You have first class tickets for voyage. Will you embark?

 

Come on, we know what happens.  If we ignore the foreknowledge, of course we do.  If not...forget it!  With the Tardis, well, MAYBE nothing bad happens.  With the Titanic, it WILL happen.

 

The Titanic is one of my "if you had a *small-sized* time machine...wearable unobtrusively, where would you want to go?" scenarios...after it starts to sink, either

a)  hit up the First Class bars and stash the booze...just because...or

b)  for value, hit up the purser's vault.  There would be hundreds of millions in jewelry there.

c)  hit up the staterooms of the elites for furs, jewelry, etc.......

 

In case you aren't familiar?  The Titanic would have TOP end wines from before the disastrous phylloxera plague that did MASSIVE damage to the French vinestock.  The only fix is to rip out the old vinestock and graft new, resistant vinestock...but that also means you've changed the wine.  The value per bottle would be......incredible.

 

This doesn't even create causality issues per se because in principle, no one would ever know what you took.

[Duke Bushido]

Well that's a neat bit of new knowledge that will,be making it's way into a campaign soon.

 

Thanks, Vlad!

 

 

 

Also, re: the TARDIS:

 

No.

 

If I didn't know what it was, then no; I'm a claustrophope, and you are not getting me into a phone booth.

 

If I knew what it was, then _Hell_ no; time-travel does not appeal to me even as an intellectual exercise.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[unclevlad]

More info on just how incredibly devastating it was:

https://www.wineenthusiast.com/culture/wine/wines-worst-enemy-phylloxera/

 

There's STILL no treatment.  This is probably one of the reasons why California has *seriously* restrictive laws about fruit imports, altho there are more recent pests.  But in today's terms, the damage would be in the multiple billions of dollars.

 

For valuation?  

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/09/03/the-jefferson-bottles

 

$157K in 1985 would be somewhere around $500K now...and actually, I'd tack another zero onto that.  Both the wine market...I could get *good* California Cabs for around $25 back then, they're $150 or more now...and basically all forms of collectibles have exploded in the interim.  Potentially less per bottle if you have quite a few, but a half mill per?  Should be fairly easy...assuming they didn't get trashed in the time travel.  

 

It's also plausible to find Napoleon cognacs...as in, Napoleon I ordered them.  THOSE would go for insane bucks.  Remember that this voyage was one of THE events of the day, and the first class passenger list was glittering.  

 

The trick to all of this is...how the HECK are you gonna explain where they came from????  And to be sure:  Provenance Is All.  Because very obviously, a wine bottle that might be worth $100K has to be an *exceptionally* attractive forgery target.  If there's an issue with the provenance, a question of the authenticity, items can and do get pulled.  Plus, these days, the reach of auctions is much, much greater.  Phillips' New York watch auction had reps handling calls from Europe, and another group handling Asian calls.  Plus online bidding.  Essentially, for those things that have intrinsically limited supply, in many cases, the price has skyrocketed because the demand has exploded...AND because the number of wealthy to MASSIVELY wealthy has exploded in the last...mmm..50 years or so.  (Think tech money, for starters, but it's been true in many industries where mergers and acquisitions have created mega-corps.  Or...in 1980, Michael Jordan was worth...next to nothing.  Now?  $3B.  Jay-Z.  LeBron.  Magic Johnson.  Bob Dylan's estimated to be worth half a bill.  There's also the rise of the Chinese entrepreneurs.)  

 

An *extremely* valuable power for a campaign would be a form of psychometry focused on time of origin, and perhaps *general* history, to authenticate things/detect forgeries.

 

 

[Sketchpad]

19 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Come on, we know what happens.  If we ignore the foreknowledge, of course we do.  If not...forget it!  With the Tardis, well, MAYBE nothing bad happens.  With the Titanic, it WILL happen.

 

The Titanic is one of my "if you had a *small-sized* time machine...wearable unobtrusively, where would you want to go?" scenarios...after it starts to sink, either

a)  hit up the First Class bars and stash the booze...just because...or

b)  for value, hit up the purser's vault.  There would be hundreds of millions in jewelry there.

c)  hit up the staterooms of the elites for furs, jewelry, etc.......

 

In case you aren't familiar?  The Titanic would have TOP end wines from before the disastrous phylloxera plague that did MASSIVE damage to the French vinestock.  The only fix is to rip out the old vinestock and graft new, resistant vinestock...but that also means you've changed the wine.  The value per bottle would be......incredible.

 

This doesn't even create causality issues per se because in principle, no one would ever know what you took.

 

There is one small hitch in grabbing stuff from a past time and bringing it directly to the present: age. Things like wine would need some age testing done, otherwise someone may make a modern duplicate that doesn't have the proper aging. Especially if you make a claim that it dates back to a certain time. Bottles, labels, and the wine itself can be tested for age. If doesn't pass the test, it would more than likely be considered a forgery. The same could apply to certain jewelry. It'd be better to jump to place where you can store it and let it age a bit. Like a safety deposit box from a bank that stayed in business through the years. 

 

On the topic of the TARDIS, while it can go through time, I'd be more interested in traveling through space and dimension in all honesty. 

[Hugh Neilson]

16 minutes ago, Sketchpad said:

 

There is one small hitch in grabbing stuff from a past time and bringing it directly to the present: age. Things like wine would need some age testing done, otherwise someone may make a modern duplicate that doesn't have the proper aging. Especially if you make a claim that it dates back to a certain time. Bottles, labels, and the wine itself can be tested for age. If doesn't pass the test, it would more than likely be considered a forgery. The same could apply to certain jewelry. It'd be better to jump to place where you can store it and let it age a bit. Like a safety deposit box from a bank that stayed in business through the years.

 

Assuming the ability to accurately time travel, you place it in a safety deposit box and move it every 5 - 10 years.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Sketchpad said:

 

There is one small hitch in grabbing stuff from a past time and bringing it directly to the present: age. Things like wine would need some age testing done, otherwise someone may make a modern duplicate that doesn't have the proper aging. Especially if you make a claim that it dates back to a certain time. Bottles, labels, and the wine itself can be tested for age. If doesn't pass the test, it would more than likely be considered a forgery. The same could apply to certain jewelry. It'd be better to jump to place where you can store it and let it age a bit. Like a safety deposit box from a bank that stayed in business through the years. 

 

 

Yeah, but that depends on how the age testing takes place.  That's also why I went with the chrono-psychometric as the authenticator...the assumption being that just because you jump it forward 100 years, after that?  It'll STILL test out as coming from 1860-1870....or 1810 for the Napoleon cognac.  

Safety deposit box...probably not.  Take an area you know to be geographically stable, build a *completely* waterproof vault, and store them underwater, preferably in ~ 50 degree water, or in a vault deep enough underground to maintain a highly stable temperature.  I can also store more this way;  most safety deposit boxes are rather small.  I want to hold at least a couple cases, cuz I'm gonna drink some of it.  

[Hugh Neilson]

19 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Yeah, but that depends on how the age testing takes place.  That's also why I went with the chrono-psychometric as the authenticator...the assumption being that just because you jump it forward 100 years, after that?  It'll STILL test out as coming from 1860-1870....or 1810 for the Napoleon cognac. 

 

In the Nerd Tradition of applying logic to fantastical constructs, if jumping forward ages the wine 100 years, won't you also age 100 years (and does the reverse hold true, in which case you would not be able to go back far enough to obtain these items)?

[unclevlad]

Is the chrono-psychometric determining the age, or the year it was created?  Those are 2 different things.  My take would be the year created...or, if you prefer, the time since it was created.  

 

Also, I assume the wine itself does NOT age.  That's a chemical process;  heat and light tend to accelerate it, which is why they're BAD.  If the bottle's from 1860, then in 1912 it's already 50 years old.  For great wine, that's fully mature, and ready to drink...after decanting, particularly in this period.  (Before filtration became common, there'd be significant solid matter, or sediment.  Long maturation will settle it all out.  You don't want the sediment to mix back in, so you carefully pour through a wine funnel into a decanter for service...stopping, just as the sediment would start to contaminate the decanted wine.)  Oxidation can continue...especially if, for example, the cork shrinks and the seal's no longer air tight.  It happens.  

 

The ideal situation...buy a couple cases.  If the wine's expected to last 50 years, then perhaps open a bottle at 10, then maybe 20, then maybe 30? years.  If you think it's fully mature...putting it into complete statis to enjoy on special occasions would be ideal.  Once it's reached that point, it won't get better and at some point it'll start slipping...eventually becoming basically undrinkable.  So you've wasted all that time and money.  Of note?  I remember reading about some Champagne bottles that were recovered.  The bottom of the ocean is about as stable, and as perfect, a set of conditions as possible...so long as the cork seal remains intact.  Some of the bottles were opened...they were quite excellent.

 

That's why rescuing the wine from the Titanic is so appealing.  It was selected by experts, properly handled, still expected to be excellent...then you just skip forward, it's as if it's been in stasis.

 

I suspect not many here have had aged wine...or aged beer.  Some beers age too.  They can be...incredible.  I was actually laying down some stouts, barleywines, and Belgian strong ales, until the diabetes was identified.  Heck, Stone made a big deal of building a line of Vertical Ales...a vertical tasting is the same wine from different years.  The Vertical Epics were released each year...2.2.02, 3.3.03, 4.4.04, etc. all to be consumed once the 12.12.12 was released in 2012.  So...that 02.02.02 would be almost 11 years old.  I had some of their Imperial Russian Stout at...not sure, probably 7-9 years old.  Yum.  And quite different from when it was released.  And one of the highlight experiences for me was a Wines of the Century dinner and tasting, in 1983 or '84.  Wines from each decade...all the way back, with the 00's being an Armangac, rather than a wine per se.  Wow.

 

So this is rather a personal fantasy.  

[Hugh Neilson]

I have seen court cases where paper and ink are age-tested to determine whether the document was really signed of when claimed.  Testing the wine itself would require opening the bottle, so that's not where one would logically start.

 

I believe the original comment was aimed at procedures of that nature, not speculative processes derived from having a knowledge of time-travel science.

[unclevlad]

Determining approximate age of ink Is a chemical analysis, using a comparison against the composition of inks from different eras.  For example, if the sample ink is colored with specific aniline dyes that were only developed in the 20th century (many of em)...it can't have been used on a bottle purported to be from 1850.  But, this is also destructive testing;  you need to remove a physical sample of the ink.  It may be ok on a label;  it would tend to be more problematic on a document or exceedingly rare text.  Bringing the bottle forward won't change the composition of the label ink, so it will pass this test.