Need help with a magic Item build

[Duke Bushido]

Hey!  Ah-Toe demanded perfection in travel!  If they were on three or more wheels, they were from that goofy splinter cult!

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

I can't help but feel a special build that costs based on the size of the other dimension is unnecessary.

 

Unless, of course, you pay for every dimension based on it's size.  If you don't, then you are really screwing over the guy who wants a really deep pocket when his teammate pays less to acess an entire universe.

 

You do still get to define your personal,universe in 6e, don't you?  Why does it cost extra to make it smaller than a universe?

 

As far as how to avoid being trapped, that has been covered well enough.

 

As to why you would build it in such a way as to possibly be trapped inside....  Well, EDM useable as Attack has a long and storied history as one of them most banned builds of all time for a reason: all the hilarious stories that come from GM's not catching it the first time around. 

 

I can think of several reasons to build it this way:

 

it won't be a quick-and-dirty "gimme a gun!" In the middle of a combat.

 

It will never be "the perfect hiding place" where one character places the sack on a wagon full of grain sacks and everyone leaps inside and waits an hour before jumping out.

 

It can create some interesting story tension: " he needs medical attention, but we have to be in River's End by sunrise!  Take him into the bag, you two, and I will acquire the softest steed to ride through the night!" Says the mysterious and shifty character your buddy Mike is playing.....

 

And on and on, up to and including that comic someone posted a while back where the party was using a bag of devouring as a portable guillotine....

 

 

[Rich McGee]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Hey!  Ah-Toe demanded perfection in travel!  If they were on three or more wheels, they were from that goofy splinter cult!

Internal combustion unicycles were A-Okay, though. 

39 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

You do still get to define your personal,universe in 6e, don't you?

We certainly do in real life, although the mandatory "only exists in your own mind" limitation does reduce its utility quite a bit.  Still a lot of folks who've clearly sunk way too many points in theirs, though.

[sevrick]

14 hours ago, unclevlad said:

At that point, it's not a custom power, it's determining how to use this power.  Surviving...having it be a mini-base...I might do that for free.  Free ingress/egress, so long as the access point is open...I'd probably allow that for free.  But the ability to trap people inside against their will...for free?  If used against others, it's an advantage, but the writeup says it can also be used against the user, which becomes a serious limitation.  Perhaps they just offset each other...just leave it as OAF.

1st It isnt a custom power but I have to make it HD through a custom power since HD hasn't been updated with the power Extrademtional Space added from the APG,which is weird since it has been out forever.

 

2nd Extrademtional Space is the closest to what I am looking for. You wanting to use gate will not work as stated in previous posts but will reiterate it here. Gate is tied to teleport which has a different cost and requires distance to calculate its cost, when it isnt a matter of distance.

[sevrick]

I am thinking

Power: Extradimtional Space 

8m x 8m space

Able to allow a person of medium size or smaller to enter and exit (+1 or more)(This +1 would represent all the advantages of being able to enter al leave the space, rather than making it a combine power with Lifesupport etc..)

Can be be closed from outside trap those already inside. (+0)(this could be a advantage or limitation so left it at +0)

Focus IOF (It is not obvious right away that the sack is a pocket demntion).

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by sevrick

[Hugh Neilson]

45 minutes ago, sevrick said:

1st It isnt a custom power but I have to make it HD through a custom power since HD hasn't been updated with the power Extrademtional Space added from the APG,which is weird since it has been out forever.

 

2nd Extrademtional Space is the closest to what I am looking for. You wanting to use gate will not work as stated in previous posts but will reiterate it here. Gate is tied to teleport which has a different cost and requires distance to calculate its cost, when it isnt a matter of distance.

 

While the Gate modifiers appear in the writeup of Teleport in 6e, the EDM writeup (6e V1 p 222. ) notes that Gate is also suitable for EDM.  The same modifiers would be used. 

[unclevlad]

There are no defined rules for accessing the space itself.  Those are left to GM's discretion...including that it's a full Width x Height entry, which several people can use simultaneously...no advantages required.  That's the most generous;  the tightest is to say it's a personal space that only you can access...period.  Next up would be saying you can apply an advantage similar to Gate, but adapted to the situation of an XD Space.  The XD Space is a closed one;  the only people who can come out of the gate, are those already inside.  This is markedly less of a risk than a standard Gate, where anyone who can see the gate at the destination, can use it to cross back to the source point.  Potential nefarious intent is implicit.   (Or it's not worth a limitation.) 

[MrAgdesh]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:05 PM, Rich McGee said:

Don't all go inside at once, obviously.  If you really must spend time inside leave one person out to play sentry, rotating shifts as need be. 

This reminds me of the old story of the gulag prisoner that was offered a bottle of vodka by the guards to peddle a bicycle linked to the camp's broken generator. "Drink as much as you want, just keep peddlin', tovarisch!"

 

After a while, the camp's electricity dwindled away and on inspection the guards found he'd frozen to death.

Died with a smile on his face though. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by MrAgdesh

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

In the HERO System Advanced Players Guide 2 there exists a specific Extradimensional Space power.  If you already have the APG2 I'd recommend that power.

 

 

It does not say so but the description of Extradimensional Space implies that its for items, and the user cannot climb inside.  But again, the rules do not explicitly state that.  I think this never made it into the main rules because its a unitasker: its a power with only one real utility, like Instachange.  At least, I cannot think of any use for the power other than "allows you to store things without weight." 

 

The rules strongly suggest it be attached to a focus (like a sack or a folding framework, etc).  There are no rules for putting other people into the space, or using it on yourself, or how you can get out again.    The closest that comes is this section:

 

Quote

The GM defines the nature of extradimensional space for his campaign. This includes such issues as whether it has air, light, heat, or geographical features; whether characters can be trapped there, enter it voluntarily, or survive there

 

Which is kind of a throwback to old Hero where you didn't have 3 pages of details explaining every possible aspect of the power and its interactions with other elements in the game.

 

Base plus extradimensional adder on the base, plus extradimensional travel is probably the cleanest way to do this, but with GM permission you could probably use XD Space.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[sevrick]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:25 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Base plus extradimensional adder on the base, plus extradimensional travel is probably the cleanest way to do this, but with GM permission you could probably use XD Space.

Realy? Because Extradimensional Space power already accounts for it not costing END, and it is persistent. Also gives you a cost based on how big the space is. Also the last paragraph makes it even more clear to which you referenced. Also this sentence from the APG:

"Extradimensional Space is bought through a Focus (such as a bag, pouch, chest, barrel, or other container) or is associated with some other object (like a Vehicle or Base)."

Leads me to me to believe that an optional use would be able to visit the contents of the bag, otherwise why mention base.

 

Another sentence from APG

"Some examples of Extradimensional Space include enchanted pouches that are small enough to wear on a belt but can hold a dozen cubic meters’ worth of material, or time machines that are bigger on the inside than the outside."

Bigger on the on the inside than the outside? Big enough to walk around maybe?

 

Look at how many hoops you have to jump through by making it Extra Dimensional Travel to work with my idea.

1. You have to add a advantage cost END.

2. You need to add the advantage is persistent.

3. You need to add the advantage constant.

4. You would have to have modifiers defining what it is. Such as a sack that you can carry and that doesn't weigh anything when carried, something in the default power of Extradimensional Space already.

4. IAF Focus

5. And since dimensions are not part of the base power you need to make up a cost of dimensions your self and give it an Advantage of whatever you figure out.

 

For Extradimensional Space you need:

1. IAF Focus

2. Add Advantage a medium size character can enter the Extradimensional Space. (+1) (all other aspects fall under the last paragraph in APG2.

3. Add constant.

4. Add maybe a Transdimensional Advantage.

 

It just seems a lot cleaner to me but I could be wrong. It would be trying to fit square peg through a round hole going Extra-Dimensional Movement.

Edited December 31, 2023 by sevrick

[Hugh Neilson]

I think extradimensional space is an easy approach, provided you're comfortable with APG content.

 

Given the space is, by nature, extradimensional, I see no need for Transdimensional.

 

The important thing is that you get the desired results, and this seems to do the trick (even if a bit of judgment is required around the edges to fill in "GM call" aspects).

 

Many of us (myself more so than most) get wrapped up in the build details.  Getting the desired effect and feel is what's really important, especially as it looks like this will be a magic item for which character points aren't paid anyway. I can't imagine the choice of mechanics used to get the effect you're looking for having much detrimental impact on a game, although it's handy if you want to replicate the effect later (e.g. a player wants a spell with a similar effect).

Edited December 31, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[sevrick]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I think extradimensional space is an easy approach, provided you're comfortable with APG content.

 

Given the space is, by nature, extradimensional, I see no need for Transdimensional.

 

The important thing is that you get the desired results, and this seems to do the trick (even if a bit of judgment is required around the edges to fill in "GM call" aspects).

 

Many of us (myself more so than most) get wrapped up in the build details.  Getting the desired effect and feel is what's really important, especially as it looks like this will be a magic item for which character points aren't paid anyway. I can't imagine the choice of mechanics used to get the effect you're looking for having much detrimental impact on a game, although it's handy if you want to replicate the effect later (e.g. a player wants a spell with a similar effect).

Comfortable with APG? It seems to me the APG acts more like Errata/Things they didn't think of at the time and didn't make into the core book.

 

Yeah you are probably right about transdimentional.

 

I like getting down to the nitty gritty details. Mostly because I have played alot of Narrative based games for a long time. IE: Genesys and Edge of the Empire by FFG. Dont get me wrong I like those systems, but the way Genesys handles spells is kind of annoying. I am in the mood for a more structured method for creation, rather than relying on GM on the fly decisions on how it works.

 

As far as putting effort into somthing that wont be used mechanically anyway? It gives me somewhat of a ball park idea of when I should give this to my players as said in a previous post.

 

My logic in building somthing, is to 1st pair it with a power that requires least amount of ham fisting to make it work. The more hoops I have to jump through, the more likely it belongs in another power.

 

As I said I am relatively new to making spells and items, I could be wrong.

Edited December 31, 2023 by sevrick

[Hugh Neilson]

APG definitely includes things that were left out of 6e core for whatever reasons Steve had.  We discussed suffocation when 6e was in drafting stages, but I believe it was left for APG due to possible balance concerns, for example. But some stuff in APG was likely "too niche" to merit word count in the main book.

 

I definitely agree with costing things out, even if only roughly, to have a sense of the value of the item.

Edited January 1 by Hugh Neilson

[unclevlad]

Plus, the sheer size of 6E is already an issue...look at the whole "is 6E too complicated" thread.  There's no consensus, but it's also got support for at least saying "in some areas, yes."  Much of the material in APG is fairly narrow/specialized/niche somehow...which means, not that useful in the core work.  

 

Finding anything in the PDFs is already a PITA without adding a lot more text.  Now, if 6E can be edited, revised for cleanup on some things, and certain things reconsidered (I think Damage Reduction is notably overpriced, for example)...and reorganized in HTML...then the length issue becomes irrelevant.  "Special cases" can be a link to discussions like (I've got APG I open) Damage To Subject, under the skills rules.