Need help with a magic Item build

[sevrick]

So as part of me filling out my world. I have been building magic items so far it has been streight forward untill this conundrum came up.

 

How would you build a sack that looks completely normal on the outside as a sack but when you open it a ladder appears in the mouth to which you can climb down into a 8m x 8m room. This room can be used for storage or whatever. It is considered to be on another plane of existence rather than just shrinking. In which you can come and go freely unless someone outside has closed the bag shut. Which would be anything from simply closed shut with a hand or turned upside down. You can breathe normally here and the weather is consistently comfortable regardless of whether the opening is closed or shut.

 

At 1st I thought I could use Extra Dementional Travel with the IAF focus. Also constant, persistant, reduced endurance 0.

 

But that seemed real cheap for what it did. It could almost be considered a base, but how would you merge the 2?

 

And yes this is a shameless rip off of a book I read but I can't remember the name for the life of me.

Edited December 28, 2023 by sevrick

[Tom Cowan]

so sounds like you are building a Extra Dementional gate: (see 6E1 301)

[Hugh Neilson]

Agree with Tom - it's a zero END EDM gate.

[Duke Bushido]

For what it is worth, "Gate" is a rather redundant Focus: it just specifies how the Focus is limited; you have been able to do that since 1980.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[sevrick]

Well if it is a gate based off teleport power what would I put for meters in distance since it teleports Transdemtionaly?

 

Also it cant be used in teleport:

"Transdimensional: Characters cannot buy this Advantage for Teleportation; use Extra-Dimen-sional Movement to travel to other dimensions and realities."

6E1 (303)

Edited December 28, 2023 by sevrick

[Hugh Neilson]

It's ExtraDimensional Movement, not Teleportation. Although Gate is detailed under Teleportation, it's cross referenced in the EDM discussion on 6e V1 p 222.

 

Travel to a single location in a single dimension (20), 0 END (+1/2), AoE (radius - the bag opening with ladder; +1/4), Usable on Others (one recipient at a time +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) [60 AP] Always On (anyone can follow you down into the room or back out; -1/2), OAF (sack; -1); Restrainable (grabbing the sack prevents access either way; -1/2).  Real cost 20 points.

 

Season to taste with Extra Time, Gestures, Concentration if desired.

[Chris Goodwin]

In the HERO System Advanced Players Guide 2 there exists a specific Extradimensional Space power.  If you already have the APG2 I'd recommend that power.  (While the book is well worth having, I wouldn't recommend buying it for just one single power.)

[sevrick]

29 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

In the HERO System Advanced Players Guide 2 there exists a specific Extradimensional Space power.  If you already have the APG2 I'd recommend that power.  (While the book is well worth having, I wouldn't recommend buying it for just one single power.)

Yeah I pretty much own all the core books. Looks like in APG2 it seems to be relating more to bag of holding type thing but could easily be made to allow people through.

 

Since it is prety much a portable shelter and storage area with a risk of being cut off from the outside world, I am not sure how much to make it point wise. At what point do I have to start thinking it as a base and upping the points appropriately?

 

I understand this is in Heroic Campaign but I want to use the point cost as a rough gide to when I should give them this item.

Edited December 28, 2023 by sevrick

[unclevlad]

Hugh:  It's not Always On.  The limitation for that 2-way passage is simply called Gate.  

 

Does it need the Uncontrolled?  

 

Also, for convenience, I use a +1/2 advantage for Gates...that encompasses the AoE, Constant, UoO, and the 2-way passage limitation.  It works out mostly the same overall, assuming you don't want a larger opening.

 

 

If you want the space to be considered a Base...you can.  The Base Location becomes Another Dimension, the size is either 0 or 1 as described.  The entry point becomes the item here.  Base itself is a perk, but it does allow Focus;  IAF sounds right.  Not that it'll matter much;  the base aspect will be dirt cheap.  

 

Note that as ExtraDim Space...

a)  it'll cost a great deal to have that much space.

b)  in general, the space itself isn't mobile.  It's connected to something...you, as a spell or power, or the focus.  THAT can be mobile.  But entry/egress is through the fixed point.

c)  points like whether others can go in/out through the opening, or can remain in the space when the opening is closed...those aren't addressed.  I believe the power's intended to replace, as you say, bags of holding, which were written up as extra-dimensional stretching, IIRC.  That structure makes it clear that it's *you* accessing the space...no one else can.  

 

You could apply a UoO on the extra-dim space, but ExtraDim Movement to a specified dimension is, to me, the much more natural approach, and leave ExtraDim Space as the narrower aspect.  

[Chris Goodwin]

Cost-wise, an 8m by 8m by 2m room would be 128 cubic meters, for 40 base points.  Adding UOO for +1/4 increases that to 50, and +1/4 worth of AoE to increase the access size brings it to 60 Active, the same Active Cost as Hugh's sample build above. 

 

For long term habitation a Base with the Extradimensional location would probably be better, but as you correctly pointed out, the character would still need a power of some kind to access it. 

[LoneWolf]

If the room is just an empty room you probably don’t need to buy it as a base.  If the players would need to spend points on it if it was in the normal world, they should have to do so for this.  If the players don’t have to pay points for it if it was in the normal world, they should not have to do so for this.  

 

EDM to reach the room is often used for this type of things.  I have a wizard that has a spell that leads to his own private demi-plane.
 

[Hugh Neilson]

53 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Hugh:  It's not Always On.  The limitation for that 2-way passage is simply called Gate. 

 

Does it need the Uncontrolled?  

 

Nothing in the rules description of Gate suggests that it is permanent once created. The character(s) in that 8' x 8' room have no means of preventing anyone from outside climbing down the ladder, hence Always On. Whether it needs Uncontrolled is a valid question, especially given that it cannot be turned off.

 

 

[Gauntlet]

One other thing, while it is nice to be able to always know how to write up any item in your game, always remember that many times it is not needed. For many magic items that are not combat related, just stating what they do is perfectly okay. The truly only worth of knowing their exact point value is so that you know the exact point value of your player characters including any items they carry.

 

My true point is, "Don't let anything like this cause you stress and make it harder to enjoy your game."

Edited December 28, 2023 by Gauntlet
Wanted to add some things.

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Nothing in the rules description of Gate suggests that it is permanent once created. The character(s) in that 8' x 8' room have no means of preventing anyone from outside climbing down the ladder, hence Always On. Whether it needs Uncontrolled is a valid question, especially given that it cannot be turned off.

 

 

 

No, that's not what OP said.  The bag can be closed to deny the access.  

 

Quote

A Gate has the -½ Limitation Gate. It represents the fact that a Gate works on both ends and in both directions: while it’s open, anyone of the proper size and mass can move through it to the other side (which opens into some far-away location).

 

So it's exactly what OP wants.  

 

 

  

[sevrick]

Looking for Extradimensional Space in HD but it doesn't seem to be there.

[Gauntlet]

15 minutes ago, sevrick said:

Looking for Extradimensional Space in HD but it doesn't seem to be there.

 

There is no Extradimensional Space as you do not need to create it. You just use Extradimensional movement and declare where it is going which can be absolutely anything. So you can state that it is a small extradimensional space that is 8 hexes wide and has a ladder going up to its exit.

[sevrick]

27 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

There is no Extradimensional Space as you do not need to create it. You just use Extradimensional movement and declare where it is going which can be absolutely anything. So you can state that it is a small extradimensional space that is 8 hexes wide and has a ladder going up to its exit.

They are completely different and have different costs and doesn't cost END. They are 2 separate and district powers. I will probably have to create a custom power.

Edited December 29, 2023 by sevrick

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, sevrick said:

Looking for Extradimensional Space in HD but it doesn't seem to be there.

 

52 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

There is no Extradimensional Space as you do not need to create it. You just use Extradimensional movement and declare where it is going which can be absolutely anything. So you can state that it is a small extradimensional space that is 8 hexes wide and has a ladder going up to its exit.

 

It's not in HD.  If you want it you'll need to use a custom power. 

[Gauntlet]

I guess if you truly want to have both the movement to the extradimensional area and the actual extradimensional area you could do it as Extradimensional movement along with a Base that requires the Extradimensional movement to get there.

[Rich McGee]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

There is no Extradimensional Space as you do not need to create it. You just use Extradimensional movement and declare where it is going which can be absolutely anything. So you can state that it is a small extradimensional space that is 8 hexes wide and has a ladder going up to its exit.

What prevents some smartass from declaring their extradimensional space is the one that shares a wall with yours and brings a pickaxe in for a bit of burglary? 

 

Shades of that old, old Knights of the Dinner Table comic where they discovered all Bags of Holding connected to the same boundless dimensional plane and if you climbed in and walked far enough from any given entry point you'd eventually start stumbling over piles of random stuff that had been dropped through from other bags.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

No, that's not what OP said.  The bag can be closed to deny the access. 

 

Perhaps I am misinterpreting the OP's intent, but what I read was that the owner opens the bag and climbs down.  The Gate (i.e. the bag) is open, and remains so, in the starting dimension.  It cannot be closed from within the extradimensonal space, but anyone who comes across the bag in the home dimension can close it up again (Restrainable) stranding anyone in that extradimensional room until and unless the bag is opened again.

 

2 hours ago, sevrick said:

Looking for Extradimensional Space in HD but it doesn't seem to be there.

 

I'm not sure the APG powers are in HD - looks like they are not from other posts above.

[unclevlad]

9 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Perhaps I am misinterpreting the OP's intent, but what I read was that the owner opens the bag and climbs down.  The Gate (i.e. the bag) is open, and remains so, in the starting dimension.  It cannot be closed from within the extradimensonal space, but anyone who comes across the bag in the home dimension can close it up again (Restrainable) stranding anyone in that extradimensional room until and unless the bag is opened again.

 

 

Mmm...reading it again...yeah, I was thinking it could be closed from the inside.  He doesn't say that.  But, that's not Always On because it can be stopped.  It does mean it's Uncontrolled, as it can be stopped by someone else.

 

So starting from XDM...

Constant, AoE, UoO, 0 END (altho, note that Costs END only to activate might also make sense, and is slightly cheaper), Uncontrolled -- +2.  So, 60 active.  Or 55 active with CEOTA.

Then Gate, Restrainable, and OAF is -2.  So 20 or 18 points.

 

Hm.  OK, so...XD Space.  No, it's not in standard HD.  I added it, but I have the source code.  (You may be able to just edit the template, too, but without at least some programming background, this isn't the easiest thing to do.)  Anyway, from APG 2...

--base cost is 5 points for a 1 cubic meter space

--double the volume for 5 points.

 

8m x 8m x 2m is 7 doublings.  So the base cost is 40 points.  I'd also allow tweaking the shape, while respecting the volume.  So...7m deep, 6m wide, 3m high.  That's 126 cubic meters.

 

The rest becomes GM's choice.  The power leaves things open.  It can be like opening the door to a self-storage unit...so the opening is the full 8x2 (or 6x3) meters.  Here...with the desired SFX?  OK, so it's perhaps a 1m radius, with the top of the ladder peeking out.  XD Spaces are Persistent, so there's no problem there, and Uncontrolled isn't needed.  It's up to the GM if UoO is required...and what form.  APG 2 even says it's up to the GM if someone can be trapped inside the space:

 

Quote

The GM defines the nature of extradimensional space for his campaign. This includes such issues as whether it has air, light, heat, or geographical features; whether characters can be trapped there, enter it voluntarily, or survive there; and how easy it is for a character to find something once he puts it in the space

 

At that point, it's not a custom power, it's determining how to use this power.  Surviving...having it be a mini-base...I might do that for free.  Free ingress/egress, so long as the access point is open...I'd probably allow that for free.  But the ability to trap people inside against their will...for free?  If used against others, it's an advantage, but the writeup says it can also be used against the user, which becomes a serious limitation.  Perhaps they just offset each other...just leave it as OAF.

 

Side point...if anyone can simply

a) close the bag, then 

b)  walk off with it and do...whatever the heck they want

 

....I gotta ask...who would make something like this, as something they WANT to use, for storage/quasi-base???  You'd be FAR too vulnerable any time you're inside.  At this point, heck, it's a genie bottle...a potential eternal prison.

[sevrick]

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

....I gotta ask...who would make something like this, as something they WANT to use, for storage/quasi-base???  You'd be FAR too vulnerable any time you're inside.  At this point, heck, it's a genie bottle...a potential eternal prison.

I am looking to make interesting items not necessarily 100% with out drawbacks. It makes things more interesting as far as there choices and or plot device.

 

For example:

"You are freezing to death and you find this bag on a dead traveler who for whatever reason died before he could use it. The players spend the night it to avoid freezing to death. They wake up  the next day and when they exit they find themselves not in the wilderness when they entered but in a random house that happens to be owned by the most powerful man in one of the nearby cities, who would surely have you killed for trespassing in his home. What do you do?

Edited December 29, 2023 by sevrick

[Rich McGee]

10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

....I gotta ask...who would make something like this, as something they WANT to use, for storage/quasi-base???  You'd be FAR too vulnerable any time you're inside.  At this point, heck, it's a genie bottle...a potential eternal prison.

Don't all go inside at once, obviously.  If you really must spend time inside leave one person out to play sentry, rotating shifts as need be.  It's less of a shelter than a mobile weightless environmentally controlled storage facility anyway.  Incredibly useful for provisioning an expedition or carrying bulky loot (or an argumentative bounty catch) home, not to mention smuggling, infiltration and similar shenanigans.

 

The person who made it probably has EDM spells of their own and couldn't be trapped in the fool thing anyway.   If end users are magically inept that's their problem, not the enchanter's.

 

If the opening and internal space was a bit larger and didn't involve a ladder you could make a decent stable/barn out of it.  There's probably a variant that does that, although your horses are likely to be skittish about it for a good long while and someone's going shovel the manure out eventually.  Horses do a lot better in inclement weather when they spend the night indoors too, so pretty handy for traversing deserts or mountains at better speed than expected - assuming you can't just magic your way around.  

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

...I gotta ask...who would make something like this, as something they WANT to use, for storage/quasi-base???  You'd be FAR too vulnerable any time you're inside.  At this point, heck, it's a genie bottle...a potential eternal prison.

 

Someone who values the storage space and is not deeply analyzing the benefits and drawbacks from the perspective of a paranoid murderhobo?

 

Why would anyone design a metal contraption powered by flammable substances spewing out noxious fumes so that they can travel at great speeds and potentially end their lives should there be a malfunction, inclement weather or a slight driver error (whether by the person driving this one or someone driving a different one)?  Historians and archaeologists believe that this reflected the devout religion of Ah-Toe, a deity of speed who demanded such sacrifices from his faithful.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Hugh Neilson