IYO why is GURPS better for Low powered campaigns and HERO is better for High powered campaigns?

[Korgoth]

It is oft said on the internets rpg'o'sphere that GURPS is better for running campaigns/settings that are closer to 'human/normals' power scales and that GURPS tends to break down at higher 'superhero/cosmic' power scales. And it is oft said that the HERO System is better for running at higher power level 'superhero/cosmic' scales but lacks the granularity to run campaigns/settings closer to 'human/normals' power scales.

 

Now IMO I'd say HERO does lack the amount of 'granularity' I'd like for near normals/heroic roleplaying and has no problem at all modeling superheroic/cosmic scale power level games. (HERO is my all time favourite RPG engine/took-kit and I love it dearly. It's also the system I mechanically know the best and am most comfortable with, 'system mastery' you'd call it)

 

GURPS however is a system I am only tangentially familiar with (despite owning many world books from the 3E era, and the 4E core books) And I've always had this niggling feeling in the back of my head that I'm cheating on HERO when I begin to read the GURPS rulebooks as their are so many similarities between the two systems (I know I know it's silly, I have the same issue with watching 'Family Guy' vs the Simpsons. It's stupid but it is what it is)

 

So

 

I am making a concerted effort to learn GURPS 4E as of late but I also am curious if it's worth the effort in a sense that it will replace HERO as my go to do everything generic rpg engine. Will it handle 'Heroic Scale' games as smoothly and effortlessly as it will Superhero gaming?

 

Or

 

Will I never achieve the holy grail of gaming (one system to rule them all)(I'm also a notorious/rabid system collector and ever in search of the 'perfect' RPG engine for any particular genre, let alone the ultimate prize of the perfect generic RPG engine) and just accept that HERO is for High Power stuff and GURPS is for lower powered stuff.

 

Also feel free to disagree with my thesis and tell me why HERO is the best at Low Powered games and fails at Cosmic Supers or vice versa.

 

• P.S. Both systems are 3d6 bell curve based at their cores. And a +1 to a roll is a big deal in both systems. So if that is the case, to me at least how can GURPS be more granular/better at human scale/heroic games when many (not all of course) folks feel HERO isn't, yet HERO also uses the 3d6 bell curve, and a +1 or -2 to a skill roll is a pretty big deal. Bigger impacts than a +1 in a d20 game or a +5% or +10% to a roll in a d100/BRP game.

• P.P.S.Thanks in advance for everyone's feedback and opinions. I value the thoughts of those with experience and system knowledge of both rpg engines. And also I'm not looking to poo poo on GURPS or HERO, this question comes from a place of love for both RPG's and Generic systems.
   

* Post EDITED for grammar/spelling/formatting*

Edited March 27 by Korgoth

[Christopher R Taylor]

I question the premise, I have no problem running low powered games with Hero and have done so for 30+ years.

[Ndreare]

I don't see the two games filing the same role myself. 

I find GURPS is the game I choose if I want very granular simulation of gritty setting.

 

Hero is better for everything else. While Hero let's me have detail and granularity it does not require it.

 

 

Both systems are great,  but I always suffered from severe ADHD, so I tend to fixate on systems for months at a time then just drop it like a hot potato and switch up.

PS: Is it just my phone or is there some weird formatting issue making the post hard to read?

[LoneWolf]

I have to agree with Christopher on this.  Hero system has a lot of optional rules that can allow you to run any type of campaign you want.   I have been in many low powered champions games and have never found them lacking.    

 

If you want a gritty granular campaign it is a matter of setting up the campaign parameters and making sure people understand that is the game, you are running.  This usually means imposing campaign limitations on powers especially defenses and stats.   Just because the average SPD in most Champions game is 5 does not mean it has to be that way.   Simply let the players know what is appropriate for the campaign and enforce that.  

[unclevlad]

It isn't your phone, Ndreare.  Not quite sure what happened, but OP's post formatting got *mangled* somehow.

 

GURPS doesn't scale well to a high-power game.  For example, to get even moderate super strength in GURPS is incredibly expensive, IIRC.  GURPS Basic Lift is (STR * STR / 5) pounds.  Hero's max lift is pretty much GURPS' 2-handed lift, which is 8 * BL.  A 30 STR in Hero can lift 1600 kilos...3500 pounds.  3500 / 8 = 440.  x5 = 2200  SQRT(2200) is 47...which is 370 points.

 

And that's just 1.6 tons...really not that exceptional.  But GURPS' STR scale means a fourfold increase in lifting STR requires doubling your STR score.  

 

Similarly, defenses in GURPS are actually fairly expensive.  If you want to blow off a .30 caliber light machine gun, t'll cost you.  Make it a .50 cal...LOTS more.

 

I do think GURPS is much better for lower-power games because its skill system is far better.  That said, setting up a GURPS character is also FAR more complex...even in just the base rules, the knobs and tweaks are far more complicated.  I have a copy of the GURPS 4E PDF...somewhere, I can't find it at the moment, could be on a different computer.  And a copy of the character builder tool...but even with the tool, it was like...whoa.....this is work!  I was building one of my favorite character types...the 'heavy' martial artist.  Good STR, fairly good defenses.  It was kinda tricky...and got expensive fast, I thought!  

 

To be sure, some of that is far less experience...I vaguely remember a game that was gonna get run in GURPS, but basically, yeah, I've only read the rules.  There's tricks, I'm sure...but OTOH, most melee-only characters are a piece of cake to set up in Hero.  An issue with 6E in particular is trying to be everything at once...GURPS does too, by definition, but it's about 2 levels MORE complicated.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I find that Hero doesn't scale well to a really, really high power game either.  It does well up to a point then things just stop working.  You can have 150 STR, which is enough to lift, I dunno, Pluto, but you're only doing 30d6 damage.  I mean, that's a lot but you should liquify entire cities with a punch at that level of strength.

Edited March 28 by Christopher R Taylor

[unclevlad]

12 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I find that Hero doesn't scale well to a really, really high power game either.  It does well up to a point then things just stop working.  You can have 150 STR, which is enough to life, I dunno, Pluto, but you're only doing 30d6 damage.  I mean, that's a lot but you should liquify entire cities with a punch at that level of strength.

 

150 STR can lift 25M tons...which, according to 1 site (searching for world's heaviest objects) is about 1/2 the weight of the Great Wall of China.  All 13,000 miles of it.   So, not quite Pluto, but still essentially a practical infinity.

 

There's aspects that don't.  That's a big one;  lifting STR is exponential, whereas damage is linear.  What I do is say, ok, the high STR is enough to justify more damage, in and of itself...so you can get a 12d6 punch without Class 100 STR, which is VERY high end.  For me, it's 1d6 per 5 points of STR over 20, is built in.  Your choice of HTH MA additional damage, or HA/HKA, or a mix.  So, a 35 STR gives a base 7d6.  35 is 15 over, so, let's say, +3 DCs HTH with martial arts.  Your +2 DC strikes include Basic, Fast, and Martial...so you're at 12 DCs.  And 14 DCs with some penalties, if the GM's cool with that.  

 

Defenses also are an issue, because you've got to manage that LARGE amount of STUN now.  For 20d6, 77+ STUN happens 20% of the time, and 80+ STUN happens 10%.  If you go with a 28 CON, you need to reduce at least 50 STUN, and that's hard to do.  Along similar lines, the risk related to any defensive hole grows.  No or low Power Def?  10d6 Drains will HAMMER you.  20d6 Mind Control will turn you into a complete puppet.  

 

Essentially, at lower power levels, a substantial amount of the cost of a special attack can be countered by the built-in baselines, or with minor purchases...this is analogous to the first several dice of a Blast are about overcoming defenses.  But once you've done that...it's all smacking down the poor schmuck on the receiving end.  And, sure, the GM can recognize it, and not use Mental Illusions very often, if at all, but this only goes so far, in my book, before it starts feeling contrived...the GM just handing you things you can handle.

 

All point-buy game systems have their sweet spots...areas where the mechanics work well.  Hero's not great at the lower end;  the fact that Heroic rules let you use equipment at no point cost, is a strong indicator.  And too high, and...you can do it, but just recognize that when building an 800 point character, you should *not* expect "twice the power" of a 400 point character.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

It is possible that GURPS handles low end campaigns better than Hero, I don't have enough experience with GURPS to decide one way or another on that.  I just know that Hero works really well for low end in my experience.

[Rhodri]

My gut feeling has always been that Hero doesn't handle quasi-realistic low end campaigns well because weapons are insufficiently lethal.  If you waive the realism in favour of character survival, it does just fine.

[unclevlad]

Well, Hero's basically aiming for the KO, rather than the kill.  But if resistant defenses are quite low, even 2d6 killing is a serious threat.  I'd argue GURPS is TOO lethal, if you're not careful.

[Christopher R Taylor]

With all the optional rules in place, Hero combat is plenty lethal, particularly if you are careful about defenses.  Most heroic games you won't even have defenses; Western Hero, maybe Clint Eastwood wears a cast iron vest, but that's pretty much it.  Cops and robbers, Indiana Jones adventures etc, your defenses are not being hit.  Fantasy you tend to have more, but a good GM will keep a close eye on it, so you don't see that stack up too much.

[dmjalund]

I feel GURPS is more comprehensive when it comes to skills.