Someone has done it: The Captain America Thread

[Vigil]

I guess that would explain it since I don't believe that I have the Genre Book. Is it 5th Ed? and what does it basically say?

 

Vigil

[Starlord]

Ah, I found it. It's also in CU, pg 28.

[Vigil]

Oh, I see it there. So what are you saying that Cap is Challenged ? I think he's at least Average/

 

Vigil

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Vigil

I guess that would explain it since I don't believe that I have the Genre Book. Is it 5th Ed? and what does it basically say?

 

Vigil

 

Yes, 5th Ed.

 

It breaks down all characteristics, including Running, Leaping and Swimming, into 7 different categories:

 

Weak

Challenged

Average

Skilled

Competent

Legendary

Superhuman

 

I don't want to give the exact breakdowns cuz that's probably copying too much official material.

 

They are the set guidelines for the official Champions Universe. Obviously, in your own universe you can do what you want.

[caris]

Originally posted by Starlord

DEX is also poorly utilized. Does any official character have a DEX over 30? No one in the CU has superhuman DEX? By straight comparison, wouldn't that make Spider-Man have like a 50 DEX or something?

 

It does sometimes seem as though the 'standards chart' wasn't followed very well by Champions authors.

 

Not exactly what I meant, I was referring to how the BODY interacts with the rest of the rules. What you are pointing to is a more conscious design philosophy decision, than a matter of the points being spent on extra DEX not being used in play. I’ve noticed very few (none off the top of my head) that really required/demanded a super human DEX. They have several that would accommodate/justify a super human DEX, but none that I said absolutely had to have it. Fenris is a good example, you could justify a wolf base character having super human DEX, but the concept still works with a lower DEX.

 

Of course, DEX has more limits on it than some of the other stats (main exceptions being STR, PD, ED, and SPD). In addition to any caps that the GM may impose for concept (i.e. your character shouldn’t have a super human DEX), DEX is also restricted by the campaign’s CV limit. Also I’ve had GMs that had a separate hard limit on DEX itself.

[Vigil]

Yeah, I see it Starlord. I was only...joking. Anyway, it seems to me that taking this sort of chart as gospel can be death cause every game has it's own mechanics and it's own conventions about what's "legendary" and what isn't. For instance, in my Worldwatch campaign only Job Hatchet and a few other high end bricks have a 30+ BODY, it's considered obscene. Vigil (my character and our equivalent of Batman or Cap but way cooler, I may add) has a 20 BODY but also has a honking big 10d6 HEAL which is the evolution of his power from the "Rapid Healing" power of Justice Inc. days. I guess, to me, I'm just very uncomfortable with the idea of all but the toughest bricks or regenerators have a BODY of over 20. I think those character types are meant to be "damage sponges" but others, like Cap aren't. If you consider the +5 CHAR points = 2x normal rule in Champs I can't see cap having more than a 20 BODY (4x normal) at the absolute outside and I think 15 is quite adequate. Beyond that and I think you're getting into munchkin land and unbalancing the cahrcter, IMHO.

 

Vigil

[Vigil]

an example

 

One example I can think of to justify my stance of limiting Cap to about 15 BODY or so came during the calssic issues #165/166 when the Avengers were fighting Count Nefaria. Nefaria had just defeated Wonder Man and hurled his superhard body at Cap, hitting him in the ribs. Cap went down like a sack of bricks with broken ribs and was out for the duration, showing that he was significantly injured. If he had 30 BODY, this would have been a joke, he wouldn't have been scratched. I think the pointis that Cap AVOIDS damage not ABSORBS it, so a high BODY score doesn't reflect the reality of the situation.

 

Vigil

[Starlord]

Originally posted by caris

Not exactly what I meant, I was referring to how the BODY interacts with the rest of the rules.

 

Agreed. I was consciously trying to make a different point though.

 

Originally posted by caris

What you are pointing to is a more conscious design philosophy decision, than a matter of the points being spent on extra DEX not being used in play. I’ve noticed very few (none off the top of my head) that really required/demanded a super human DEX. They have several that would accommodate/justify a super human DEX, but none that I said absolutely had to have it. Fenris is a good example, you could justify a wolf base character having super human DEX, but the concept still works with a lower DEX.

 

If you're saying that the authors left all those characters capped at 30, because they didn't need to make them any higher, then I really disagree with their philosophy. I don't agree that villains should be built that way.

 

 

Originally posted by caris

Of course, DEX has more limits on it than some of the other stats (main exceptions being STR, PD, ED, and SPD). In addition to any caps that the GM may impose for concept (i.e. your character shouldn’t have a super human DEX), DEX is also restricted by the campaign’s CV limit. Also I’ve had GMs that had a separate hard limit on DEX itself.

 

True, but it's still possible to build many of those characters with higher DEX, just take away some skill levels. Spider-Man, for example, while skilled, clearly operates more on instinct and natural agility, than fighting skill.

 

Also, piggybacking on what I said earlier, it does seem that some of the 'standards' might have been poorly thought out. Why do so many characteristics have to be set at 30, when clearly each characteristic has a different level of effect on the game depending on how high they are. Obviously, they don't all even out. STR and DEX, for example. It's quite common to have a 50 STR, but not 50 DEX. It's almost like '30' was thrown out there to make them all conform and fit nicely at the same number. I'm quite comfortable with 30 STR being 'peak human', but I definitely think DEX and BODY could be changed. Perhaps peak human for DEX could be 25 and BODY could be 20. As I said, looking over so many official 5E characters, the general design philosophy doesn't seem to fit it own standards.

[caris]

Originally posted by Starlord

If you're saying that the authors left all those characters capped at 30, because they didn't need to make them any higher, then I really disagree with their philosophy. I don't agree that villains should be built that way.

 

I’m not sure what you mean by “need†in this case. Did they not need to make the characters with a high DEX for some mechanical reason? No, that is not what I was saying. What I was saying is that none of the concepts that are in official characters that I can think of off hand, really had to have a super human DEX. In CKC the character which came closest would probably have been Fenris, since it is common to give animalistic characters high DEX. The catch here is the animal they went with is wolf. You can make a case to give a wolf based character a super human DEX, but it isn’t really required. Now if they had included Pantera, and only given her a 30 DEX, I’d be more concerned, because her DEX should be super human. Dr. Silverback is probably under DEX'd for a comic book gorilla, but that is even more a matter of taste than most things that we've already discussed.

 

Perhaps, the better way to put it is who do you consider in the books to have a concept that requires them to have a super human DEX? Who would you call a Spider-man clone, or to fill that kind of roll?

 

 

Originally posted by Starlord

True, but it's still possible to build many of those characters with higher DEX, just take away some skill levels. Spider-Man, for example, while skilled, clearly operates more on instinct and natural agility, than fighting skill.

 

Also, piggybacking on what I said earlier, it does seem that some of the 'standards' might have been poorly thought out. Why do so many characteristics have to be set at 30, when clearly each characteristic has a different level of effect on the game depending on how high they are. Obviously, they don't all even out. STR and DEX, for example. It's quite common to have a 50 STR, but not 50 DEX. It's almost like '30' was thrown out there to make them all conform and fit nicely at the same number. I'm quite comfortable with 30 STR being 'peak human', but I definitely think DEX and BODY could be changed. Perhaps peak human for DEX could be 25 and BODY could be 20. As I said, looking over so many official 5E characters, the general design philosophy doesn't seem to fit it own standards.

 

While I do in agree with you in part on BODY, I still don't see that to be the case with DEX in that I don't really see any characters who's concept says that they must have a super human DEX to fit concept. Now granted I don't have all of the books yet. (I have Champions, Fred, CU, MC, CKC, and Battlegrounds for Champions. I've just started reading UNTIL, so I don't count it, yet. I have UMA, and Ninja Hero that could also be applicable.)

[Metaphysician]

Originally posted by Vigil

Yeah, I see it Starlord. I was only...joking. Anyway, it seems to me that taking this sort of chart as gospel can be death cause every game has it's own mechanics and it's own conventions about what's "legendary" and what isn't. For instance, in my Worldwatch campaign only Job Hatchet and a few other high end bricks have a 30+ BODY, it's considered obscene. Vigil (my character and our equivalent of Batman or Cap but way cooler, I may add) has a 20 BODY but also has a honking big 10d6 HEAL which is the evolution of his power from the "Rapid Healing" power of Justice Inc. days. I guess, to me, I'm just very uncomfortable with the idea of all but the toughest bricks or regenerators have a BODY of over 20. I think those character types are meant to be "damage sponges" but others, like Cap aren't. If you consider the +5 CHAR points = 2x normal rule in Champs I can't see cap having more than a 20 BODY (4x normal) at the absolute outside and I think 15 is quite adequate. Beyond that and I think you're getting into munchkin land and unbalancing the cahrcter, IMHO.

 

Vigil

 

You built a 2000+ point *Batman* analogue??

[Vigil]

not an analgoue as such

 

I said that Batman was the most common anal;ogue in comic books as to Vigil's position and role in the team but in personality Vigil is probably closer to Vril Dox.

 

Vigil is the evolution of 2 of my old JI characters, Mortimer Moran and Dr. Alexander Stone. That campaign ran (in game years from 1914 - 1935) and by the time it finished our once humble 125 point charcters were in the 350 or so point range. We then (about 1986) returned our Champions campaign where i introduced the mysterious new (N)PC Vigil who was, in fact, the fusion and evolution of Mortimer and Alexander...it's a long story. Anyway, the charcter had spent over 100 years in game time exploring and fighting in otherdimensional realms which explained a significant point increase and significant augmentation. At his return he was about 1250 points. The rest he's earned since then brining him up to his current level.

 

The reason that he is 2000 points (and has avoided munchkinhood) is that he is a "combat telepath" meaning that many of his abilities are built with the limitation "psionic" (-1/2) which makes him very effective against sentients of all kinds but against robots, etc he's greatly reduced in his abilties.

 

He also has a wicked Find Weakness MP which allows him to Find Weakness in any target which is "psionic" in nature. This is much more powerful than a normal Find Weakness and is built as a NND with the defense being "non-psionic". He also has a Usable by Others version of this power to represent his ability to coordinate and control team tactics although it isn't NND. And as I mentioned he's got pretty solid stats and a honking big HEAL.

 

Beyond that he had almost 600 points in skills including 52 AK's which represent the various otherdimensional realms he's operated in, lots of science skills and language skills and ungodly rolls in Tactics, Analyze, Criminology and Deduction (all 23-).

 

So while there are superficial resemblances to Batman that's all they are is superficial. Vigil is a unique concept and a very distinct and orignal construct. If you like I could post him sometime.

 

 

Vigl

[Agent X]

Re: an example

 

Originally posted by Vigil

One example I can think of to justify my stance of limiting Cap to about 15 BODY or so came during the calssic issues #165/166 when the Avengers were fighting Count Nefaria. Nefaria had just defeated Wonder Man and hurled his superhard body at Cap, hitting him in the ribs. Cap went down like a sack of bricks with broken ribs and was out for the duration, showing that he was significantly injured. If he had 30 BODY, this would have been a joke, he wouldn't have been scratched. I think the pointis that Cap AVOIDS damage not ABSORBS it, so a high BODY score doesn't reflect the reality of the situation.

 

Vigil

Okay, Count Nefaria operating with the Superspeed and Superstrength in a way that suggests strongly that he's operating at or above the limits of Superman throws a guy who is incredibly unkillable at Cap and Cap has some broken ribs. I'm thinking Count Nefaria was throwing big handfulls of dice that day. Not a good example for your argument.

 

Of course, your rationale is flawed in another way. Body, like anything else in the game, simulates the character's capabilities in one way or another. Cap can be injured but he's hard to kill. In that respect, high body is an excellent way to simulate this.

[Vigil]

Hey Agent X....if that is your real name.

 

Point taken but I still think 30 BODY for Cap is way out of line and very probelmatic. If you're going to give Cap 30 BODY, then do you give Thor 60? Iron Man 50? Panther 25? Quicksilver 40? Wanda 20? The problem is that it becomes an arms race and you end up with escalalting things just to try to keep some semblance of balance. I think there are much more elegant and balanced ways to express Cap's durability than Hulk-like heaps of BODY. Were I to design Cap, something which I may have to do now, I would look at stuff like Combat Luck and straight out Luck and a heafty EGO instead of huge BODY scroes. To me the bottom line is that it makes no sense at all for Cap to have more BODY than guys like Thor, The Hulk or Thing and Wonder Man. Again, I think it's an innate function of a brick but not of Cap.

 

As I stated in my example, when Cap was caught off guard and hit by Wonder Man's flying bod he was taken out hard for the rest of the fight. In games turns it was STR based move by by Nefaria (lets say STR 115) throwing Wondy. N seemed to be about 4 or 5 " away so let's see. Wondy weighs about 400 lbs so let's say 110 extra STR. I think that works out to a 44" throw or 44"/phase since throws are considered to be same phase. So, STR/2 = 55 STR which is 11d6 + V/5 = 44/5 which is +9d6 so we're looking at a 20d6 move by. That's an average of 70 STUN and 20 BODY. Let's say Caps natural PD is 18 so we're looking at 52 STUN and 2 BODY damage. I think that would knock Cap out and break a rib (that being based on my calculation that Cap has 45 STUN, with a 30 BODY/STR/CON he'd have 60+ STUN and still be standing after that move). So, I think my argument holds in game terms though you can possibly argue the mechanics of the manuever etc.

 

In realistic terms, if Cap had a 30 BODY that wouldn't have happened. He would have been slightly slowed but not stopped by any stretch of the imagination. Heck, if you look at it in pure Champs terms, technically if not realistically, Cap could stand unshielded under the blast of a Saturn 5 rocket for a phase or two without being incinerated with that kind of BODY and that makes zero sense.

 

Vigil

 

EDIT: woops, in my haste here I made a calculation error. It akes 15 STR to lift Wondy, not 5 so Nefaria would have an extra 100 STR which kinda changes things. The new recalculation would be 100 STR/ 2 = 10d6 + 40" throw/5 = 8d6 for a total of 18d6 not 20. That's 63 STUN or so and 18 BODY. Minus Cap's 18 PD that's still 45 STUN but 0 BODY, enough to knock him out but the broken rib would then become a role playing thing. The scenario still works though and wouldn't if Cap had a BODY of over 15.

 

 

 

[Chuckg]

No, you don't give Thor 60 BODY. You give him enormously higher resistant defenses and/or Damage Reduction, so that the same 10d6 RKA which only makes him go 'ow' would make Cap -- minus the shield -- become paste.

 

BODY is only there to represent 'hit points' anyway, and we know how subjective those can be.

[Agent X]

Re: Hey Agent X....if that is your real name.

 

Originally posted by Vigil

Point taken but I still think 30 BODY for Cap is way out of line and very probelmatic. If you're going to give Cap 30 BODY, then do you give Thor 60? Iron Man 50? Panther 25? Quicksilver 40? Wanda 20? The problem is that it becomes an arms race and you end up with escalalting things just to try to keep some semblance of balance. I think there are much more elegant and balanced ways to express Cap's durability than Hulk-like heaps of BODY. Were I to design Cap, something which I may have to do now, I would look at stuff like Combat Luck and straight out Luck and a heafty EGO instead of huge BODY scroes. To me the bottom line is that it makes no sense at all for Cap to have more BODY than guys like Thor, The Hulk or Thing and Wonder Man. Again, I think it's an innate function of a brick but not of Cap.

 

As I stated in my example, when Cap was caught off guard and hit by Wonder Man's flying bod he was taken out hard for the rest of the fight. In games turns it was STR based move by by Nefaria (lets say STR 115) throwing Wondy. N seemed to be about 4 or 5 " away so let's see. Wondy weighs about 400 lbs so let's say 110 extra STR. I think that works out to a 44" throw or 44"/phase since throws are considered to be same phase. So, STR/2 = 55 STR which is 11d6 + V/5 = 44/5 which is +9d6 so we're looking at a 20d6 move by. That's an average of 70 STUN and 20 BODY. Let's say Caps natural PD is 18 so we're looking at 52 STUN and 2 BODY damage. I think that would knock Cap out and break a rib (that being based on my calculation that Cap has 45 STUN, with a 30 BODY/STR/CON he'd have 60+ STUN and still be standing after that move). So, I think my argument holds in game terms though you can possibly argue the mechanics of the manuever etc.

 

In realistic terms, if Cap had a 30 BODY that wouldn't have happened. He would have been slightly slowed but not stopped by any stretch of the imagination. Heck, if you look at it in pure Champs terms, technically if not realistically, Cap could stand unshielded under the blast of a Saturn 5 rocket for a phase or two without being incinerated with that kind of BODY and that makes zero sense.

 

Vigil

 

EDIT: woops, in my haste here I made a calculation error. It akes 15 STR to lift Wondy, not 5 so Nefaria would have an extra 100 STR which kinda changes things. The new recalculation would be 100 STR/ 2 = 10d6 + 40" throw/5 = 8d6 for a total of 18d6 not 20. That's 63 STUN or so and 18 BODY. Minus Cap's 18 PD that's still 45 STUN but 0 BODY, enough to knock him out but the broken rib would then become a role playing thing. The scenario still works though and wouldn't if Cap had a BODY of over 15.

I argue the mechanics and the interpretation. I don't want to dig through storage to find the relevant issues but, in my translations, I get the feeling the Count had a little better strength than 115 coupling his 100? times greater strength than the strong guy and the 100 times super speed of the twisty guy.

 

You still haven't explained what the negative consequences of using 30 as peak human for body other than you don't like it. How does it imbalance the game?

[Vigil]

I never said that it imbalances the game in any way other than the inevitable escalation that it would cause. What it is, is gratuitous...it does nothing to enhance or define Cap's character nor, as my example shows, does it at all seem to be borne out by the source material itself, which is probably the most important consideration. There also seems to be a bit of a "soft" double standard operating here: why is it disingenuous to give Thor 60 BODY, as in my example, but not to give Cap 30 (which I feel is more ludicrous)? In chuckg's posting he mentions that with Thor you make up the difference (whatever that is) with resistant defenses, damage reduction, etc...so why not with Cap? As I suggested I think that Cap with a 30 BODY is a much poorer, less real to the source material interpretation than cap with 15 BODY and Combat Luck and Luck and Combat Skill Levels. But that's just my take on Cap.

 

Vigil

 

As for my interpetation of Nefaria as having a 115 STR (and by the way, I'd place Thor at 110 and Wonder Man at 100), well if he has 100x Power man's STR, at that point according to the OHOTMU, it was said that Power Man's STR had dwindled to the point where he could lift 25 tonnes (50 STR). 100 x 50 STR = 85 STR. Given that my 115 is, I believe more accurate to the source material, and more inline with Nefaria's charcters and more in blaance with the other charcters.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Vigil

I never said that it imbalances the game in any way other than the inevitable escalation that it would cause. What it is, is gratuitous...it does nothing to enhance or define Cap's character nor, as my example shows, does it at all seem to be borne out by the source material itself, which is probably the most important consideration. There also seems to be a bit of a "soft" double standard operating here: why is it disingenuous to give Thor 60 BODY, as in my example, but not to give Cap 30 (which I feel is more ludicrous)? In chuckg's posting he mentions that with Thor you make up the difference (whatever that is) with resistant defenses, damage reduction, etc...so why not with Cap? As I suggested I think that Cap with a 30 BODY is a much poorer, less real to the source material interpretation than cap with 15 BODY and Combat Luck and Luck and Combat Skill Levels. But that's just my take on Cap.

 

Vigil

 

As for my interpetation of Nefaria as having a 115 STR (and by the way, I'd place Thor at 110 and Wonder Man at 100), well if he has 100x Power man's STR, at that point according to the OHOTMU, it was said that Power Man's STR had dwindled to the point where he could lift 25 tonnes (50 STR). 100 x 50 STR = 85 STR. Given that my 115 is, I believe more accurate to the source material, and more inline with Nefaria's charcters and more in blaance with the other charcters.

1. I never commented on the idea of Thor having a 60 Body. The guy definitely has a Superhuman Body. In the old Marvel game on the FASERIP his endurance was listed as Unearthly in one source. That is 4 steps above peak human limits in that game. I figure I'd put his Body around 50. Happy?

 

2. There will be no escalation of body. People don't buy body, not because it isn't in the character's conception but because it isn't much bang for the buck. Characters don't die very often in Hero even with 15-20 body. There will be no calamity whatsoever. Heck, I've guilted myself into buying more body than would serve my nefarious purposes for effectiveness in combat purely because the character concept demands more body than is frankly likely to be useful.

 

3. My take on Cap is he's just as peak human physically as Teleios. And he's got combat luck, luck, and combat skill levels... as well as a 30 Body. It explains why he survives battles with Super Count Nefaria, Thanos, and the like.

 

4. OHOTMU's tonnage rates have to be viewed as Marvel Tons which have little resemblance to real tonnage. If Power Man is described as having a strength capable of lifting 25 tons that's 1/4 of the strength Wonder Man is described as having. I'd place Wonder Man at just a hair less strength than Thor so about 105. Count Nefaria is going to be 25 times stronger than Wonder Man so he's gonna have about a 128 STR the way I figure it. But wait! there's more. He's also got superspeed backing that up so I'm just gonna make it 130 STR to make it simple - and I'm gonna allow him all sorts of superspeed/superstrength tricks - like throwing objects as a physical ranged killing attack, say Wonder Man would be handy for that. Wondy becomes an 8d6 + 1/2 killing attack hurtling at Captain America and doing on average 30 body + some nasty stun. So Cap has some ribs break and he's out of the fight for a while. Makes sense to me.

 

5. To your way of thinking, I guess Cap would get slaughtered by 1 or 2 Lethal Destroyer Beams.

[Metaphysician]

Cap *should* get slaughtered by one or two Destroyer-Beams. . . *if* they don't hit the shield.

 

( one or two *hits*, obviously )

 

Of course, if DD were fighting the Avengers, he'd probably not be wasting any shots on Cap, since Cap has precisely dick ability to heart DD. Then again, DD would probably toss out an AoE Destroyer-Beam pretty early to "clear out the riff-raff". . .

[Vigil]

as to your points

 

1 and 2) Actually, I'd probably put Thor at around 30 BODY. I was using the 60 facetiously to indicate the kind of pointless munchkinism that can occur when charcter concepts get out of hand. The difference and the essential argument here, is that 30 BODY makes sense on Thor given his conception and the way he's depicted. It doesn't make sense for Cap.

 

3) Actually 30 BODY for Cap does nothing at all to explain how he survives against Nefaria and Thanos since he survives BY NOT GETTING HIT. I don't know how much more clear I can make that but maybe you don't understand that BODY doesn't equal DCV. You can't use high BODY scores as a special effect for dodgning can you? I've never heard of it. He survives as you and I agree by tons of skill levels, combat luck, luck and manouevers and good gamemastering.

 

And, as I pointed out in my Count Nafaria example, there's simply no need or indication of Cap having any more than 15 BODY or so. The source amterial doesm't support it...regardless of what a cart in Champions may say. It's pretty simple. You look to the source material and if secondary sources don't agree with the primary sources you dump the secondary source as being erroneous or irreleavnt.

 

4) I agree the OHOTMU is riddled with problems and errors and all sorts of gremlins but one thing it does well is proportionality and scale. At the time of Avengers 164 - 166 I think the source material and Power Man's depiction bore out an unaugmented STR of around 50...in other words Wondy, even Chicken Wondy as he was at the time would have taken him apart. When he was augmented by Neafria his STR may have been around 85, still less than Wondy (who I clock in at around STR 100) but enough to catch him off guard as he did.

 

At this point it becomes a matter of interpretation and balance. If you take Nefaria as having 100 x the STR of the original depowered Power Man then he rates an 85 also. I don't feel any more satisfied with that then you did. If you take 100 x the augmented Power Man you get something in the range of 115 - 120, exactly where I put him.

 

As for the unsupported and unshown claim that Nefaria has, somehow, an OIF object of opportunity RPKA... it's simply never ever been show to be that way. I can't think of any one instance when Neafria has demonstrated any such ability. And with his eye beams he wouldn't need to. I clearly explained and showed the dynamic of Nefaria throwing Wondy in my last post and it's clearly not a PRKA...it's a really strong guy throwing another really strong guy so it's a PA and that's all. (As an aside, had the attack been the 8 1/2 + d6 PKA that yousuggest Cap would have been shredded period as he has no resistant defenses and was caught flat by the attack. There's just no way to rationalize that one). The example, the evidence and the math all work out so I'm not sure of what more you need to be convinced of what is readily apparent. In such cases I think unless the evidence shows otherwise the simple explanations are the best and my example was a simple explanation that completely explained the dynamics of what happened.

 

5) I don't know about Lethal Destroyer Beams unless you mean the Destroyer that Odin created in which case, yes, I would be amazed if Cap survived one or two of those beams.

 

EDIT to point 5) oh that Destroyer...well duh yes, Cap would be slaughtered if he didn't dodge or have his shield. It's a no brainer.

[Metaphysician]

Actually, the Asgardian Destroyer didn't occur to me at all.

 

And yes, unless the rider is explicitly firing an underpowered beam at Cap for some reason, Cap should be a smudge. If its the Disintegrator Ray, well, even if Cap *blocks* that one, he should still be nonexistent. The main Disintegrator Ray is like some kind of ungodly hideous RKA AP AVLD ( Power Defense ).

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

Cap *should* get slaughtered by one or two Destroyer-Beams. . . *if* they don't hit the shield.

 

( one or two *hits*, obviously )

 

Of course, if DD were fighting the Avengers, he'd probably not be wasting any shots on Cap, since Cap has precisely dick ability to heart DD. Then again, DD would probably toss out an AoE Destroyer-Beam pretty early to "clear out the riff-raff". . .

That's sad. I've never understood the perspective on the game that basically makes it impossible to participate in so many of the scenarios that are actually presented in the comics.

[Agent X]

Re: as to your points

 

Originally posted by Vigil

1 and 2) Actually, I'd probably put Thor at around 30 BODY. I was using the 60 facetiously to indicate the kind of pointless munchkinism that can occur when charcter concepts get out of hand. The difference and the essential argument here, is that 30 BODY makes sense on Thor given his conception and the way he's depicted. It doesn't make sense for Cap.

 

3) Actually 30 BODY for Cap does nothing at all to explain how he survives against Nefaria and Thanos since he survives BY NOT GETTING HIT. I don't know how much more clear I can make that but maybe you don't understand that BODY doesn't equal DCV. You can't use high BODY scores as a special effect for dodgning can you? I've never heard of it. He survives as you and I agree by tons of skill levels, combat luck, luck and manouevers and good gamemastering.

 

And, as I pointed out in my Count Nafaria example, there's simply no need or indication of Cap having any more than 15 BODY or so. The source amterial doesm't support it...regardless of what a cart in Champions may say. It's pretty simple. You look to the source material and if secondary sources don't agree with the primary sources you dump the secondary source as being erroneous or irreleavnt.

 

4) I agree the OHOTMU is riddled with problems and errors and all sorts of gremlins but one thing it does well is proportionality and scale. At the time of Avengers 164 - 166 I think the source material and Power Man's depiction bore out an unaugmented STR of around 50...in other words Wondy, even Chicken Wondy as he was at the time would have taken him apart. When he was augmented by Neafria his STR may have been around 85, still less than Wondy (who I clock in at around STR 100) but enough to catch him off guard as he did.

 

At this point it becomes a matter of interpretation and balance. If you take Nefaria as having 100 x the STR of the original depowered Power Man then he rates an 85 also. I don't feel any more satisfied with that then you did. If you take 100 x the augmented Power Man you get something in the range of 115 - 120, exactly where I put him.

 

As for the unsupported and unshown claim that Nefaria has, somehow, an OIF object of opportunity RPKA... it's simply never ever been show to be that way. I can't think of any one instance when Neafria has demonstrated any such ability. And with his eye beams he wouldn't need to. I clearly explained and showed the dynamic of Nefaria throwing Wondy in my last post and it's clearly not a PRKA...it's a really strong guy throwing another really strong guy so it's a PA and that's all. (As an aside, had the attack been the 8 1/2 + d6 PKA that yousuggest Cap would have been shredded period as he has no resistant defenses and was caught flat by the attack. There's just no way to rationalize that one). The example, the evidence and the math all work out so I'm not sure of what more you need to be convinced of what is readily apparent. In such cases I think unless the evidence shows otherwise the simple explanations are the best and my example was a simple explanation that completely explained the dynamics of what happened.

 

5) I don't know about Lethal Destroyer Beams unless you mean the Destroyer that Odin created in which case, yes, I would be amazed if Cap survived one or two of those beams.

 

EDIT to point 5) oh that Destroyer...well duh yes, Cap would be slaughtered if he didn't dodge or have his shield. It's a no brainer.

1 and 2) You bring up Munchkinism because someone doesn't agree with your numbers?

 

3) He also survives because of his incredible stamina, fortitude, and will to live. All of which can be represented by Body. He is the kind of guy who can have all his bones broken but as long as he is given some assistance, he will heal.

 

4) "As for the unsupported and unshown claim that Nefaria has, somehow, an OIF object of opportunity RPKA... it's simply never ever been show to be that way. I can't think of any one instance when Neafria has demonstrated any such ability. " Sure he demonstrated that ability. When he did a great deal of body to Cap. Are you saying that a guy with that kind of strength shouldn't be able to demonstrate incredibly lethal damage when throwing things?

 

And Cap has resistant defenses through combat luck and through his chain mail.

 

5) I'm not talking about Cap standing still to get hit. I'm talking about DD making his to hit roll and hitting Cap. Even with that, I don't think Cap should go down with 1 or 2 10d6 RKAs. The guy has survived 100s of encounters with villains the scale of Count Nefaria on 'roids and Doctor Destroyer and he's still around. Cap's an icon and deserves more protection from two good rolls.

[Chuckg]

Not doing the common-sense thing just so the fight can last longer than two pages is called "Plot-Induced Stupidity", and it's something we're trying to avoid.

[caris]

Re: as to your points

 

Well, Cap does have some resistent defense. I don't know how much the chainmail is supposed to give him, but definitely some.

 

Now, if you are ignoring Cap's chainmail costume, and not giving him combat luck, where in the heck is Cap getting an 18 PD for a non-shield hit? I mean doesn't 10 points over NCM seem a little high for "natural PD" of a non-brick, when you seem to be having trouble with giving cap even NCM for Body?

 

Personally, given the way that throwing and knocking back people tends to work in both Marvel and DC. I would say that either the rules are different in those universes or double knock back, and lots of extra STR only for throwing are standard elements of design philosophy. So the thrown Wonder Man, could theoretically impact harder than the straight lifting capacity assigned to the thrower would indicate.

 

I also think that the source material pretty clearly indicates that most costumed heros and villains have a lot more body than some of the sky scrapers in their worlds.

 

Furthermore, I tend to assume that most comic book characters tend to have fairly good Power skills, to account for the numerous one-off or stunt pulled out of there ass effects that the characters in comics tend to do. So Nefaria could have used that skill to make his throw something other than a straight STR based Normal Damage attack.

 

Also, you are assuming that Nefaria only got an average hit on Cap in the scene you are describing. With only a single scene to base the argument one could still look at the example accept the power levels and say in that case that Neferia perhaps got a better than average roll. Even using all of your assumptions Cap is only at –9 STUN, hardly out of an entire fight unless it is a very short fight since Cap still gets a recovery every Phase and post segment 12. Logically extending Agent X’s arguments to PD and STUN (15 PD and 60 STUN) there is only a 12 point difference in required Stun damage to produce the results you want, and the BODY damage could actually be up to three points lower. Feeling a tad generous I would say that your 18 PD 45 STUN version would need to be hit by 84 STUN, so either Nefaria average 4.2 STUN, or he pulled 24 dice doing average STUN. Agent X’s version of Cap would need to be hit by 96, so either Nefaria averaged 4.8 STUN, or he threw a 27.4 (rounded) die attack doing average STUN. Honestly, I do not see anything indicating that the source material that you’ve chosen really significantly favors your interpretation of the character. Both versions of the character need a higher than average roll on the attack you assume for your example, or for the attack to be higher than the example. Your version requires less deviation from the assumption, but I’d have to leave it to others with more experience with statistical analysis to say if the difference is significant.

 

As for your point that you should use BODY to represent a character who when hit isn’t as badly hurt as one would think, because no one can get a solid hit on them or they keep going after other people have to give in. I don’t think it is unreasonable when an official build for a similar effect (Combat Luck) uses resistant PD and ED to accomplish it.

 

edit - to add explanation for referencing power skill.

[Metaphysician]

Originally posted by Agent X

That's sad. I've never understood the perspective on the game that basically makes it impossible to participate in so many of the scenarios that are actually presented in the comics.

 

I've seen quite a few instances where either the Uber Villain casually deals with the riff-raff, or completely ignores them ( as they are, in fact, incapable of hurting him ).

 

Besides, Cap is more capable than most street levels of surviving, since he's got the shield to block any direct attacks ( and at least part of AoE attacks, IMHO, though *not* the entirety of them ).