Experience with ignoring STUN?

[swobeas]

Hi folks!

 

In our group the amount of time playing fights is a recurring problem.

As noted in the new Fantasy HERO Mr. Long prosposes ignoring STUN completely. This would speed up combat but what experience do you have doing so?

 

One of the PCs is a weaponless fighting martial artist from a small island far in the sea and I'm not sure about turning hist fists and feet into HKAs.

The other thing is one PC has got the talent combat luck, providing him with 3 rPD and has now turned to wearing plate armor... therefore killing damage must be high scaled to be able hurting him (DEF = 11 altogether) and the rest of the group has pretty low defenses...

 

thanx for your advise

swobeas

[Guest joen00b]

Removing Stun from the game? I have never even thought of that. It of course makes it exponentially more dangerous as the players will tend to fight till the are out of Body instead of Stun, which could very well kill them.

 

I would do a few test runs with it before committing one way or the other.

 

(Edited because I have the reading comprehension of a Rhesus Monkey... no offense to the Rhesus Monkey).

[JakSpade]

I would suggest only using Combat Luck when the character is in a compromising position, where he is unable to count on his luck (someone Finds Weakness on him, perhaps, but mostly if he is unarmored or stunned, unconscious). Having 3rPD all the time is a little too efficient, I think... It might help him from getting hit with range weapons, say, if someone was firing into a melee...

 

Just a thought...

Jak

[swobeas]

confusion

 

the martial artist and the tank are two different characters...

[Guest joen00b]

Re: confusion

 

Originally posted by swobeas

the martial artist and the tank are two different characters...

 

I must remember to NOT go to messageboards before my mornign Mountain Dew, lmao. I'll go back and edit my post to be... more pertinent?

 

LMAO, my apologies.

[Killer Shrike]

Personally I think the duality of STUN and BODY is one of the best parts of the HERO System and introduces a wide range of tactical decisions and presents a combat system which is more complex than two combatants just hewing at each other as if they were nothing more than hunks of wood to be whittled, such as D&D and other Hit Point based games.

 

Also, Steve doesnt recommend not using STUN AFAIK, rather presents it as merely a possible option (because the HERO System is all about customizability) for making the game more like some other game or to suit the preferences of a given RPG group.

 

I would seriously think about it first, STUN is a major part of the flavor and mechanics of the HERO System, and getting rid of it will be like a rock thrown into a pond; it will cause a disruption that will spread far beyond the initial point of impact.

[Trencher]

Ignoring stun makes combat more boring in my opinion, use the stunX written on the hit location chart that should save you some time.

You should not let players combine combat luck and wearing armour that is unbalancing.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Trencher

You should not let players combine combat luck and wearing armour that is unbalancing.

It doesnt have to be unbalancing by default, but certainly can be if allowed to get out of control. Characters pay points for Combat Luck. Also Combat Luck is in many ways countered by Deadly Blow.

[Trencher]

I just see combat luck as a cool way of giving the player an opportunity to run characters without having the wearing armour.

[lemming]

STUN is one stat I don't think I'd want to ignore.

END is probably a better one to ignore if you want to streamline your bookkeeping.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Trencher

I just see combat luck as a cool way of giving the player an opportunity to run characters without having the wearing armour.

Me too; a -1/2 Lim "Only When Not Wearing Armor" is something I push heavily, and it appears in multiple places in the content on my website.

 

However, I also dont have a problem w/ characters having unmodified CL and wearing armor in moderation.

[Old Man]

IME permitting different type of rPD to stack just doesn't work. So a given character in our campaigns could use the higher of combat luck, armor, and magic, but can't add them all together to become an invulnerable juggernaut.

 

As for ignoring STUN--it sounds to me like that would actually exacerbate the problem you're having. STUN is the primary threat to the tank. Use higher-STUN attacks against the party, like hammers and clubs, to make it a little easier to endanger the tank without killing the other party members outright. Armor piercing attacks also work.

 

Killing damage martial arts can get out of hand in a hurry. I wouldn't permit it without the use of a weapon. Even normal damage martial arts can easily reach sick levels without really munchkining out.

[PhilFleischmann]

I often ignore STUN, but only for:

 

Orcs or other low-level hoards of cannon fodder.

Mid-level monsters sometimes, when the obvious idea is that the PCs are supposed to kill it, rather than capture it.

Big Monsters on very rare occasions.

Never for the PCs, and never for any villain character or NPC that has an important non-combat role to play.

 

Speeds up play a lot when the PCs are fighting a large mass of grunts.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I often ignore STUN, but only for:

 

Orcs or other low-level hoards of cannon fodder.

Mid-level monsters sometimes, when the obvious idea is that the PCs are supposed to kill it, rather than capture it.

Big Monsters on very rare occasions.

Never for the PCs, and never for any villain character or NPC that has an important non-combat role to play.

 

Speeds up play a lot when the PCs are fighting a large mass of grunts.

Yeah, the "mook" or "chump" effect. For larger battles I just assess a secret "HITS" number for the mooks based upon their relative toughness and defenses. Also, if a PC or notable character makes a big attack, it just drops chumps.

 

This is a time-honored method of dealing with unimportant unamed antagonists in the HERO System.

[Old Man]

Yes. STUN was generally ignored unless a mook was stunned, and even then keeping track of stun was probably not necessary since a stunned mook suddenly became alpha target for anyone who hadn't gone yet that phase.

 

Impairing or disabling wounds would also be considered 'kills'. In general you can count on mooks to not be as motivated as the party, so they might actually run away if severely hurt or if too many of their buddies are severely hurt or slain.

[Galadorn]

FOR STEVE LONG

 

Originally posted by swobeas

Hi folks!

 

In our group the amount of time playing fights is a recurring problem.

As noted in the new Fantasy HERO Mr. Long prosposes ignoring STUN completely. This would speed up combat but what experience do you have doing so?

 

One of the PCs is a weaponless fighting martial artist from a small island far in the sea and I'm not sure about turning hist fists and feet into HKAs.

The other thing is one PC has got the talent combat luck, providing him with 3 rPD and has now turned to wearing plate armor... therefore killing damage must be high scaled to be able hurting him (DEF = 11 altogether) and the rest of the group has pretty low defenses...

 

thanx for your advise

swobeas

 

I would suggest a simpler idea. HERO Games should design a software program for use with Hero Games. He can add:

• 1. Disk: A disk for each different Hero Game Supplement.
  2. Laplink: A laplink type feature where computers can link together.
  3. Graphics: Graphics of character pictures of each package deal or character archetype (Brick, Mark I, Ranger, Cleric, Secret Agent, etc.) and General maps, with terrain for use with each Supplement.
  4. Figurines: Character pictoral figurines for use with map.
  5. Mapping System:He can also add a mapping system where character figurines can be moved across the terrain.

 

If you want to speed up the calculations for Hero Games, the best way to do that is by computer. If Steve wants to reach me for consulting on the project, he can contact me at my email address in my profile.

 

Experience:

-5 years computer technician.

-1 year Information (Technology) Officer.

-5 years Small Business Consultant.

[Old Man]

I would highly advise against ignoring STUN. For all the reasons previously stated and if the time ever comes that you want to capture the party, it will be very difficult without STUN. Of course you should not capture the party often - once or twice during an entire campaign is plenty because players HATE getting captured.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Shadowpup

I would highly advise against ignoring STUN. For all the reasons previously stated and if the time ever comes that you want to capture the party, it will be very difficult without STUN. Of course you should not capture the party often - once or twice during an entire campaign is plenty because players HATE getting captured.

 

I agree.

 

And yes, even the real-world police suggest if someone is going to kidnap you, to go all-out to escape or get help. This is because the chances of dying are very high if you are kidnaped. I think people instinctively avoid their characters getting captured for this reason.

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by joen00b

(Edited because I have the reading comprehension of a Rhesus Monkey... no offense to the Rhesus Monkey).

 

 

my Rhesus Monkies accept your apologies....

[tesuji]

I would not recommedn getting rid of stun entirely. The ripples thro the rest of the system are pretty big and it will especially get into the values for other things. Ebs and RKAs wont maintain their relative values for one.

 

The main reason i saw for changing the stun mechanic was to get closer to the genre for fantasy. Stun left as it is results in most characters dropping due to KO and then being relatively quick to recover. Thats great for super heroes.

 

However, most fantasy combats from lit or film do not end that way. its not common for the majority of the opponents to be shown in lit and film as simply knocked out and the "heroes" then walking around delivering coup de graces to the helpless adversaries.

 

But if the majority of your foes drop due to stun loss, thats what happens in FH games. (i cannot speak to FH5 games, my experience is with multiple FH4 games and HERo 5 rules for other games.)

 

Basically, when you look at the relative damage AFTER DEFENSES for a "typical attack" and the relative values of body and stun for FH characters, you will often see the "hits it takes to drop you to 0 body on average" and hits it takes to drop you to 0 stun on average" so obviously leanb to KO being the result.

 

There are several ways to "fix" this. None of them are easy and all involve monkeying with game mechanics that you will probably get flak for from the "true believers.".

 

The simplest method i devised is to chaheg the characteristics so that thew ratio of stun and body shifts to favor the stun. You can alter weapons, armor how stun for attacks is measured and so forth but the easiest thing to do, IMO, is to change how much stun and body people have.

 

The plan i had laid for my grecian hero game was...

 

STUN = str/2+con/2+body*2 so that every body gives you 2 stun. This not only increases stun but encourages buying body. This will add 10-20 more stun right off the bat to your typical character.

 

STUN costs 1/2 pt per aditional point instead of 1. This keeps the "buy stun is cheaper than buying body by 2-to-1" and encourages more stun purchase.

 

The preruns i had done put this new cost figure at making it about 50/50 as to whether a character dropped from stun first or from body as the ratio of stun-body for a character came pretty close to the ratio of stun-body for an attack, after defenses.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by tesuji

I would not recommedn getting rid of stun entirely. The ripples thro the rest of the system are pretty big and it will especially get into the values for other things. Ebs and RKAs wont maintain their relative values for one.[/stun]

 

I think Villian and Vigilantes is a no stun system. Hero would pretty much mimic that system. I don't even know if V&V is around anymore. I had a friend who loved the system - don't ask me why... He played Hero Games pretty regularly, no accounting for taste I guess.

[Intrope]

I'm going to have to agree that dropping STUN entirely is too radical. However, FH5 did have another suggestion I liked quite a bit: treat all KAs as having reduced penetration on the STUN portion. So, a 2d6 KA that rolled out as 7 BODY, 21 STUN would instead do 7 BODY, 10 STUN, 10 STUN. This would reduce the excessive STUN output of KAs against Heroic opponents (since you get to apply defenses twice) without making it impossible to knock someone out.

 

IIRC, it was only applied to KA, not to regular attacks but I can't remember what page of FH it was on.

[GrimJesta]

How do they propose to make up for Mentalists? I mean, an Ego Blast is all STUN, unless Im readin it wrong... would Mentalists in FH lose what is often their main attack?

 

-=Grim=-

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Intrope

I'm going to have to agree that dropping STUN entirely is too radical. However, FH5 did have another suggestion I liked quite a bit: treat all KAs as having reduced penetration on the STUN portion. So, a 2d6 KA that rolled out as 7 BODY, 21 STUN would instead do 7 BODY, 10 STUN, 10 STUN. This would reduce the excessive STUN output of KAs against Heroic opponents (since you get to apply defenses twice) without making it impossible to knock someone out.

 

Yes, that would work. Also, allowing higher defenses, combat luck, or skill levels might work as well.

 

I guess I would use LOR: Two Towers as my template. How, when in reality most Medieval warriors were slaughtered by the hundreds, did the Fellowship of the Ring survive? Sounds like combat luck to me. And, a nice piece of work in a mithril chainshirt.