How the...?

[GrimJesta]

Um. Isnt a VPP reeeeally to...um... liberal for spells? Am I reading this wrong? It seems like you can do anything you want with it... You just need time to read a spellbook and suddenly have the spell.

 

-=Grim=-

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: How the...?

 

Originally posted by GrimJesta

Um. Isnt a VPP reeeeally to...um... liberal for spells? Am I reading this wrong? It seems like you can do anything you want with it... You just need time to read a spellbook and suddenly have the spell.

It depends entirely on how you define the VPP.

[farik]

Like all games a rule will only be as limiting as the GM lets it. Yes a VPP can be ripe for unlimited power but if you check the Fantasy HERO magic system examples you'll see that the GM is expected to place arbitrary limits on magic use. The key to a good magic system is a reasonable framework of expectations so the GM and player can work together.

[GrimJesta]

Ok, Ive been confused about GM limits, thats all. I feel like Im removing core mechanics if I start ditching stuff. Maybe its the player in me screaming and kicking my GM alter ego.

 

Does the FREd edition of FH describe limitation better for VPPs? Cuz the 4e one describes stuff, yet not well. It left me slightly more confused on VPPs as spell pools than I was before.

 

Maybe Im misreading VPPs?

 

-=Grim=-

[farik]

The biggest obstacle to imposing limits as a GM is a person's desire to be fair but keep in mind if you weren't fair you wouldn't have players and/or those players will let you know that they don't think it's fair your responsibility as GM is to create a fun experience both for your players and for yourself not for one or the other but both.

 

As far as the 5E magic examples

on one hand they are a good example of how to establish a fair but ultimately arbitrary framework of limitations/guidelines for spell construction

on the other hand they are as I said "ultimately arbitrary" each system is internally balanced and would be appropriate for certain settings but I wouldn't say they're all balanced against each other. So unless you can confidently make some decisions about guidelines and "feel" based on the setting they aren't going to help very much.

[sbarron]

2nd Edition Fantasy Hero (for 4th Ed. Hero) really frowned on power framworks for magic systems in general. It takes a lot of thought and planning to balance magic bought through a framework, and there wasn't much effort put into that in that Fantasy Hero.

 

5th Ed. is a completely different animal. Power frameworks have been embraced as a valid means of creating magic systems. It's still not the way some people do it, but Fred and the new Fantasy Hero go to some length to show a GM how he could successfully utilize frameworks for magic systems.

 

GrimJesta, on your first question. In Hero, it is generally expected that GMs and players are trying to play a game that is balanced and internally consistant. A lot of limitations and modifiers on things like a magic system are going to be unique to the system the GM chose to create. So when you read a limit that says "Must study spellbook to change spells," it is left up to the GM to decide what that exactly means.

 

Generally, I'd assume that you must put a spell into your spellbook before you can reasonably expect it to be there to be relearned. That being the case, the VPP you mentioned is limited to spells that the caster has already put into his spellbook. Depending on the type of game that is being run, that could mean 3 spells, or if you have an "Infinity Spellbook," maybe it means you have any spell you could imagine. It's up to the GM and the system he created. How do PCs get new spells? How many do they start with? How many spells can a spellbook hold? How cumbersome is a spellbook to carry around adventuring? All of these questions impact the limitation "Must study spellbook to change spells." Depending on these answers, it might not be hardly limiting at all, or it might be a crushing limitation.

[John Desmarais]

Re: How the...?

 

Originally posted by GrimJesta

Um. Isnt a VPP reeeeally to...um... liberal for spells? Am I reading this wrong? It seems like you can do anything you want with it... You just need time to read a spellbook and suddenly have the spell.

 

-=Grim=-

 

Well, I suppose if you let the players buy a wide-slam open cosmic VPP, yes.

 

A few basic concepts for using VPPs for spellcasters.

 

[*]Keep the game machanics consitant - if you are going to use VPPs, then all spellcasters use them.

[*]Define a standard set of limitations that will be applied to the VPP Control that define how you want magic to work (ie. Skill Roll Required, Must study spellbook to change spells in pool, Extra Time required to change pool, etc, etc...)

[*]In addition to the "standard limitations" listed above, I also like to add "Only for spells in a known school"

[*]Don't worry about the players balking at the reduced functionality - remind them that it comes with a reduction in cost as well.

[*]Fantasy Hero has suggestions for using VPPs as the base mechanic for a magic system. I recommend reading through it. Additionally, may folks have created VPP-based magic systems and posted descriptions of them to web sites - a google search can yield a wealth of inforamtion.

[/list=1]

 

 

John Desmarais

[Killer Shrike]

Transplanted from a post I made on another thread asking about the associated skill roll w/ a Magic VPP:

 

 

I prefer to base Magic Skill Rolls on Knowledge Skills so that the Scholar Enhancer can be used, and because Magical knowledge is generally depicted as learned via study and personal experience, ala a Knowledge Skill. But I have used Power Skills and even (in the Sortilege Magic system) Interaction Skills too. You can basically use any kind of skill you want.

 

Also, for High Magic using a Magic VPP of some form, I generally prefer to use Magic Skill Rolls not on the casting of Spells, but rather on the learning of Spells to a "Known Spell List".

 

The most important thing is to accomplish flavorful styles of magic that are also roughly balanced against the abilities of non-spell casters built on similar points.

 

Personally, I use pretty specifically detailed guideline documents as to how different systems of Magic work, what they can and cant do, any limitations or other modifiers they must or must not have, and so on.

 

Default Magic System:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Magic.htm

 

Default Arcane System:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/ArcaneMagic.shtml

 

Default Divine System:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/DivineMagic.htm

 

 

Aeldeneran:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/aeldenarenPackages.shtml

 

Sortilege:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/sortilegePackages.shtml

 

Elementalists:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/elementalPackages.shtml

 

Wizards:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/wizardPackages.shtml

 

Divinists:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/priestPackages.shtml

[Eosin]

One of the ways you can use a VPP as spells is to predefine your spell lists and determine a "research difficulty" for each spell.

 

Basically, in FH you don't have a cosmic power pool. You have a pool limited by the effect of "Known Magic." Players would begin with 5-10 known spells in thier style or school. After that they need to research new spells, find them in old musty scrolls, or have someone else teach them the spell. After that they add the spell to their list.

 

You would need to determine the extent of learning....that is ....is the magic like D&D where you can learn Arcane Wizardly spells only or could your Wizard learn Wizardly and Bardic spells.....could they learn Clericial? All of these things have to be predefined so you do not meet problems.

 

One of the most appropriate VPP magic systems would be the Wheel of Time. Buy the VP pool and Affinities/Skill Rolls with the 5 elements and then use Mage sight to learn new spells. The mage might only be allowed to buy special spells if they bought a 10 point Talent called ----"One Power Talent" something like Healing. Not everybody can heal with the One Power but some can really sock it to ya.

 

Mages might start off with one "weave" known and unless they find a teacher it might be a long time in coming and dangerous [You could allow expermintation or on-the-fly casting with a Side Effect of a failed roll attampting to Transform you into a "Burned out" Mage].

 

VPP are one of the more difficult to manage and run aspects of the game. It is so wide open that the DM needs to be really clear on defining what the Pool represents. Not all pools are all things - the Gadeteer has a differnt pool than Green Lantern who has a difernt Pool than the "Metamorph Pool" who is different that the "Ultimate Mentalist." Definition is key to good VPP management.

 

Hope that helps.

[Foxx!]

Originally posted by farik

Like all games a rule will only be as limiting as the GM lets it. Yes a VPP can be ripe for unlimited power but if you check the Fantasy HERO magic system examples you'll see that the GM is expected to place arbitrary limits on magic use. The key to a good magic system is a reasonable framework of expectations so the GM and player can work together.

Grim Jesta:

This is good advice from Farik.

 

Read Fantasy Hero p. 240, ÂgEven if the GM...Âh Players donÂft have to buy all their spells in one VPP. They could buy a single spell as a VPP to make the spell flexible.

 

Arthur has an interesting idea too.

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13133

 

Cheers

[GrimJesta]

This thread changed my whole outlook on VPPs BTW. I was dead against them in my games because I didnt really understand them (I thought I did, but this thread taught me alot), but now I think I might make VPPs the main way I do magic in my Western Shores game.

 

-=Grim=-

[farik]

The ironic thing is our group has no problem with VPP for magic but we've ruled against them for our current game.

 

We wanted to have a diverse number of "magic systems" rather than a single diverse system. As a result we encourage low level magic available to everyone at a high cost with a written magic system to describe what kinds of spells are appropriate to construct. As a secondary result traditional magic users are very focused on specific effects since it's too expensive to be diverse.

 

So bottom line is players and GM have to agree on the feel they want magic to evoke in the setting.

[keithcurtis]

Here is a system I published in the old 4th Edition Digital Hero:

 

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

 

It is a VPP-based system and covers spell, potion and item creation as well. It is the system we use for our FH game.

 

Keith "My one writing credit" Curtis

[Eosin]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Here is a system I published in the old 4th Edition Digital Hero:

 

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

 

It is a VPP-based system and covers spell, potion and item creation as well. It is the system we use for our FH game.

 

I really need to take a better look at that. It is pretty impressive.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Here is a system I published in the old 4th Edition Digital Hero:

 

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

 

It is a VPP-based system and covers spell, potion and item creation as well. It is the system we use for our FH game.

 

Keith "My one writing credit" Curtis

 

Ill have to check this out soon...

[John Desmarais]

Re: How the...?

 

Originally posted by GrimJesta

Um. Isnt a VPP reeeeally to...um... liberal for spells? Am I reading this wrong? It seems like you can do anything you want with it... You just need time to read a spellbook and suddenly have the spell.

 

-=Grim=-

 

Here is a system I cobbled together many years ago. I haven't updated it for 5th edition (because it's not the system I'm using in my current game) but things haven't changed so much from 4th to 5th that it doesn't still work as an example of using VPPs for magic.

 

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/rules/Art_of_Magic.html

 

 

John Desmarais

[austenandrews]

Re: How the...?

 

Originally posted by GrimJesta

Um. Isnt a VPP reeeeally to...um... liberal for spells? Am I reading this wrong? It seems like you can do anything you want with it... You just need time to read a spellbook and suddenly have the spell.

 

I use it as a tool in my magic system. I make all the spells and constructs myself and hand the pertinent writeups to the players. In the case where I use a VPP, the player doesn't even notice that's what it is.

 

I doubt I'd ever have a game where a PC would have carte blanche to make up any spell he could think of. On the other hand, reading a spell out of a book and then using it doesn't sound that bad, either.

 

-AA