Does anyone have problems with....

[AnotherSkip]

Stealth Vs Concealment,

 

I have one player that apparently the division between Stealth and Concealment caused him to get huffy (i.e. that one skill does not do both).

 

It doesnt bother me in the least (after all AD&D has HS and MS).

 

but I kinda wanted a bit of an informal poll.

[BoneDaddy]

Shadowrun, the game to end all games, god rest its soul, had a stealth skill that covered the following: sneaking, hiding, tailing, finding someone who was hiding, shaking a tail, and noticing someone sneaking. So, as they say, YMMV.

[zornwil]

I think of them as separate and play them separately. You cannot conceal yourself. You cannot use stealth to hide something.

[bjbrown]

The rules are pretty clear in the distinction between Concealment and Stealth- concealment applies to remaining stationary without being detected, while Stealth applies to moving without detection. Concealment has a few additional uses, in addition to concealing oneself (and the rulebook does mention using Concealment on oneself)- one can use it to hide others (allowing them to avoid detection while stationary), it can be be used to hide things, and it can also be used to detect concealed people or things. Concealment is an Intellect skill, and Stealth is an Agility skill. If you're wondering which applies, ask yourself the simple question- is the character trying to hide while stationary, or hide while moving? Stationary uses Concealment, moving uses Stealth.

 

Each skill is so highly useful on its own, that each is worth its own 3-pt. expenditure. It also makes sense to have a character who has one and not the other. In the FH game I run, every player character has Stealth (of all skills, Stealth is probably the one mandatory skill- because one character without Stealth prevents the party from sneaking around as a group). Only a couple of the characters have Concealment, since they really only need to assign one character to search a room, or hide their supply cache.

 

So I see no reason to lump the two into one skill.

[tesuji]

i have a bigger issue with concealment being both hiding things AND finding hidden things. I really think search should be its own skill.

[CrosshairCollie]

I thought that you countered Concealment with a Perception roll?

[ghost-angel]

concealment works both ways because if you're good at hiding stuff you're usually good at finding stuff to.

 

It works on the principle that if you know how to hide things well then when looking for hidden things in other places you know where to look by virtue of you know where you'd start hiding things. There's no reason to split it out into "Conceal" and "Search" rolls.

 

And of course "Concealment" and "Stealth" need to be seperate. You don't use Stealth to hide stuff in a room, you use it to be quiet-sneaky-ninja-like. And you don't use Concealment to be all quiet-sneaky-ninja-like and bonk the guard on the head from behind, you use it to hide stuff in a room.

 

Any player who is trying to combine them needs to be scrutinized for Munchkinness. I suggest being Stealthy and sneaking up on them then Concealing the body when you're done.

[Legendsmiths]

Concealment can be used for finding things as well, although PER can substitute. Use the better of the 2 with the other being complimentary.

 

I don't like rolling for complimentary skills (slows the game down). If someone has a complimentary skill (at 11-) I give them +1 to the primary skill, +1 per +2 skill after that (e.g. 15- in a complimentary skill is worth +3 to the primary skill).

 

So, someone with a 14- PER and a 11- Concealment would be 15- to find something concealed, but only 11- to hide something.

[Dust Raven]

I've always used them seperately. Concealment is used for hiding things (including people and oneself) from view/detection. Stealth is for when you don't want someone to hear you. As for detection, both are defeated with a PER roll, but Concealment can be substuted (or used as a complimentary skill) for finding hidden things/people.

[Blue]

I've got no problem with the current setup.

 

You'd use Concealment for a game of Hide-and-Seek for both parts. You'd use the skill to find a nice location and then cover yourself up accordingly. The other guy would use the skill to figure out a good hiding place where someone might be. Makes sense to me.

 

Stealth you'd use for trying to sneak past your parents so you can go out and drink with your friends. They'd use perception to spot you because they're not actively looking for you, they're just watching TV and might catch a glimpse.

 

Works for me.

 

Of course if they consolidated it I'd have no problem with that either. Simplicity is always good.

[Snarf]

I wanted to change them to Stealth for hiding yourself and Concealment for hiding other objects in the game I was GMing, but one of the players talked me into playing them as written.

[Kintara]

One is hiding, and one is sneaking. It seems to make sense to me. Hiding is more cerebral, being largely a form of trickery (you pick the spot where the seeker doesn't think to look, even if you are the thing concealed); Stealth is more physical and active, training your body and instincts to avoid detection when doing something. Of course, as with many skills, it's not entirely true. There's a cerebral element to stealth, just as there's a physical element to Concealment. But I think the division works as is.

 

Edit: In fact, I think it makes an interesting choice of mode when trying to evade detection. Do you find a hiding spot for a while, then sneak out when it's cooled down? Or do you minimize detection by getting out as quickly as you can manage?

[AnotherSkip]

thanks for the weigh in guys.

for a bit of detail the guy runs SR and is pretty munchkinny/whiny....

[Vondy]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

thanks for the weigh in guys.

for a bit of detail the guy runs SR and is pretty munchkinny/whiny....

 

shadowrun & munchkiny... isn't that a redundant clause?