Code Vs. Killing: Undead and Demons

[NetNemesis316]

My Take

 

Well here is my answer to the question. First of all how do you kill something that is already dead? So a code versus killing does not apply. After all a corpse at the mortuary sometimes twiches. These just move alot more but they are not alive. Second. Demons by their very nature are not anything but a personification of evil and therefore I would consider them fair game and would not penalize my players for offing them. As long as they know what they are up against. I wouldn't let them get away with the whole "Oops I thought he was undead" excuse but if you know you are facing a dead thing or a demon then they are fair game in my game.

[Mastermind]

Originally posted by Chuckg

I'm playing "Starguard", who is one of the most CVK characters you ever met.

 

She's also, unbeknownst to her, a Remnant (In Nomine term) archangel. Going from the description, three guesses which Archangel.

 

And so the most pacifistic and gentle superheroine on the entire team unhesitatingly pulled out a Fiery Sword(*), and start kicking butt for the Lord -- to the extent of doing a called shot to its head with a 3d6+1 Penetrating HKA while the team brick held it in a full nelson. She set the campaign record for "Most BODY done in a single blow".

 

 

(*) VPP user -- which is why she could buy a KA.

 

Sounds like a cool character. You wouldn't happen to have an .hdc for her, would you?

[caris]

This is one of those things that is really very campaign/player/GM specific. I don’t really think that Code vs. Killing was meant to apply to all possible opponents and/or situations that character’s might encounter where something/someone might “dieâ€. While the specific issue asked about in this thread is demons and undead, the question is equally applicable to machines, magical constructs, animals, and as has been pointed out aliens. Not every character will answer the questions in the same way. For example, my character Adonis is fairly “bio-centric.†Adonis will treat an obvious robot or golem as being not “alive†until proven otherwise, but will tend to assume that anything that looks like a biological creature that displays a reasonable level of intelligence is something he shouldn’t kill. So Adonis would have no problems wading through Mechanon’s robotic servitors and destroying them, but would balk and be cautious during his first encounter against Takofanes and his zombies. Like with pretty much every Disad, I feel that the player and the GM should discuss it to make sure they are on the same page, because the base assumptions about what is and is not covered by the Disad can affect its cost.

[SomeAsianKid]

Hmmm...now that would be interesting. If a character had a chance to kill Takophanes, would they take it? (dunno how they could kill Tak, let's just assume it's a gm plot device right now)

[Metaphysician]

Originally posted by SomeAsianKid

Hmmm...now that would be interesting. If a character had a chance to kill Takophanes, would they take it? (dunno how they could kill Tak, let's just assume it's a gm plot device right now)

 

In my case, yes, without hesitation. Then again, my characters CvK is loosely similar to the Asimov's Laws of Robotics. Basically, safety interlocks that impose strict situational prerequisites before lethal force can be used.

 

Takofanes just being there is more than enough to meet the requirements.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Mastermind

Sounds like a cool character. You wouldn't happen to have an .hdc for her, would you?

 

Actually, I've posted her a couple of time in various "post character" threads.

 

I don't use Hero Designer, I have my own Excel spreadsheets to jot notes on. I'll zip up her starting configuration and her current configuration w/ earned experience and attach 'em to this post. If you don't have Excel, Microsoft has a free Excel viewer -- you can google for it.

 

Her origin story can be found here.

 

She was originally created for a 750-point JLA-style campaign.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by SomeAsianKid

Hmmm...now that would be interesting. If a character had a chance to kill Takophanes, would they take it? (dunno how they could kill Tak, let's just assume it's a gm plot device right now)

 

Takofanes would fall well within Starguard's "Creature Of Utter Evil That Simply Does Not Belong In The Earth-Realm At All" category -- i.e., time to haul out the Fiery Sword of Light again.

[Tasha]

My last character defined killing very strictly. Any death was too much for her code. In the last game with her, she argued with an alien mage as to why it was wrong to kill demons and warlocks. For her it came down to killing is wrong no matter how much the person deserves it.

 

As for the PCs who are abusing their CvsK. If they are not following the code close enough for you. Then figure out the new level of Code vs Killing humans (Common, strong) and fill the points with unluck. That will get their attension. Before you do that you may want to discuss with you players why they play a code vs killing the way they do. Perhaps you can come to an accomidation or at least they will know that you don't care for their loose interpretation of the Psyc Limit.

 

Tasha

[Supreme]

Sorry to post so late, having read so little of previous posts, but my time is limited...

 

I think that the GM, if he decides there are going to be plenty of aliens and undead running around in the campaign - and characters with CvK, needs to answer certain fundamental questions for the campaign ahead of time. These questions need to range from the practical considerations like is the PC really earning the points he gets from the disad to more fundamental questions about life and death. Is there such a thing as a soul? Do aliens and undead have souls? There aren't pat answers for this. Each GM creates their own world and is only bound to the rules and folklore they like (including ones they make up entirely).

 

One of the things to think about is nomenclature. We always say "Code against Killing," but are we really cognizant of what that means? Technically speaking, when you weed your garden you are taking lives. Heck, when you survive an infectous disease, you are killing the disease (virus or bacteria) in favor of your own life. So obviously, there have to be certain limits for a 20 point disad. So language should be as specific as possible, particularly with regards to whether or not the limitations placed upon the character are fair given the points taken.

[The Watcher]

Technically, if demons are from Hell or some other metaphysical plane of existence, all you are doing when you "kill" them is forcibly deporting them back to their home.

 

With that in mind I'd think most Code vs Killing types would let it slide.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by The Watcher

Technically, if demons are from Hell or some other metaphysical plane of existence, all you are doing when you "kill" them is forcibly deporting them back to their home.

 

With that in mind I'd think most Code vs Killing types would let it slide.

Unless you have demons as they are on the "Buffy" and "Angel" series, a magical pre-human group of species. Like I said, the GM has to sit down and think about this stuff, and discuss it with his players.

[CrosshairCollie]

A lot of this seems to be campaign dependent ... it also matters whether or not the authorities are capable of restraining supernatural beings as well as normal superhumans.

 

As far as I'm concerned, there's no discernible difference between a demon or vampire and a 'regular' supervillain. They can be knocked out, they can be arrested, they can be incarcerated. Theoretically, vampirism can be cured, and if angels can fall, demons can rise. Heck, according to the USPD sidebars, Until has a couple of mystics in their employ; there's bound to be restraining systems for demons and vamps out there.

 

Now, if it's just a horde of skeletons or zombies bought as mindless automatons, well then, feel free to dismantle as you please.

[Allandrel]

I'm curious - can anyone think of an instance where Superman fought the undead? His code versus killing explicitly includes "not even demons," but what about the undead?

 

Patrick J McGraw

[Korvar]

There was a Batman/Superman crossover, drawn by Art Adams, where they fought Vampires. I can't remember what Superman decided re: killing Vampires, but it ended on Batman getting a pile of stakes and a hammer, and saying something along the lines of "Excuse me, I've got some work to do".

[Stampede]

In an issue of Superman About a year and a half ago, He met Dracula.. In the End Drac Bites it when he littearly bites it, Superman that is.. Being powered by the Sun, the Energy Ends up ripping him up pretty bad causing him to poof, while supes blasts him with some Heat Vision.. Lois Explains that the Whole Not killing people thing doesn't include Vampires and the Undead.