Superhumans pulling an Authority

[Hermit]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Yeah' date=' but most of my villains aren't as violent and ruthless as these guys. [/quote']

 

I concur with that, somehow V'Han strikes me as a bit less petty and having a lot more class, but I maybe letting my repugnance for the scenerio affect my call on that.

[The Watcher]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Interject a point or two here' date=' wasn't the reason for this act of storming the White House, in response to said administration attempting to 'nuke' the Superhumans in question, who had merely been disposing of vicious dictatorships and negligent corporate business operators. I don't know about you but if said administration tried to nuke me, and serioiusly endanger numerous other lives (innocent and otherwise) I'd respond with serious force as well.[/quote']Read "negligent corporate business operators" as American citizens who as of yet had not been convicted of any crimes and deserve the full rights and privellages that any citizen is entitled to. These guys are basically saying "To hell with human rights and the rule of law, we're going to kill anybody we don't like, for any reason. And no one can stop us."

 

They're basically acting like rampaging monsters, who pose a danger to the nation and everyone in it. They do not have the right to decide who lives and who dies solely on their whims. They basically are trying to de facto make themselves "The Law" by enforcing their wishes and killing whoever they think is doing things they're against. They werent elected and they have no legitimate right to try to enforce their will.

 

With that in mind, any force used to attempt to stop them is justified. You don't let monsters rampage in your country and victimize people, no matter what the "cause" they espouse.

 

Stepping a bit back from where this idea was going, it's interesting that a lot of people seemed to agree that goverment's would escalate the issue with these individuals and react violently. I'd see diplomacy to be the morelikely course myself, we'd try to talk to these individuals first and foremost. Military force would likely be a last of the last resorts.

Diploacy? They're fricking murderers! They killed someone simply because they didn't like his business practices. Aside from their super powers, they're no different from any other radical group that kills people for a cause. You don't legitimize behavior like that by "negotiating." You capture or kill them for their crimes.

 

Let's put it this way. Would Timothy McVeigh be any less a terrorist if he used super powers instead of a truck bomb in Oklahoma City? Would Jeffrey Dhamer be any less a seriel killer if he used his mutant pheremones to control his victims and natural claws to butcher them?

 

The fact that they have super powers does in no way change the nature of their deeds. All it does is raise the level of their threat, and the measures neccessary to neutralize that threat.

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Pretty much anyway you cut it, these guys are going to be some of the most hated people on the planet. They are going to have their supporters, of course. But they are going to be going around murderering CEOs, blowing up factories and overthrowing governments. That's going to make for alot of widows and orphans. Soldiers of so called "legitimate" governments are going to be sent against them. And apparently slaughtered. People are going to be scared and fear quickly turns to hatred. People are going to lose jobs, their families will go hungry. They are going to resent these "saviours".

 

On another level, people are just going to resent a group. Any group, no matter how well meaning saying "We are above you. Your laws mean nothing to us. And there's nothing you can do about it." Doesn't matter how well thought out it is or even how -true- it is. Folks aren't going to like it.

 

A personal note, I realize in my posts I have been preaching. But this scenario and the way it was introduced felt more like a political rant than a question about a game/story. The original poster wanted a realistic response then seemed to resent, at least a little, when that reaction was approval. The air of smug superority seemed a little over done as well so I got emotionally involved.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Well, the one good thing about this thread is I think I know more about how some super villains think, especially the ones who seek to control the world for "The greater good."

 

I may incorporate some of this into V'Han's mindset.

 

Yeah, but she would be a whole sight better than these guys. After all, she generally leaves lots of local political autonomy.

[The Watcher]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Yeah' date=' but she would be a whole sight better than these guys. After all, she generally leaves lots of local political autonomy.[/quote']Now there's a thought. What's left of the world's governments and indepedent super humans contacting V'han and asking her to invade Earth to liberate it from the tyranny of Wanderer's Authority Types.

[Hermit]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Now there's a thought. What's left of the world's governments and indepedent super humans contacting V'han and asking her to invade Earth to liberate it from the tyranny of Wanderer's Authority Types.

 

Now that is intriguing, and I think you just gave me an idea for an adventure plot.

[lemming]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Now that is intriguing' date=' and I think you just gave me an idea for an adventure plot.[/quote']

 

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? But how are we going to get Grond into a catholic schoolgirl outfit?

[JLXC]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Read "negligent corporate business operators" as American citizens who as of yet had not been convicted of any crimes and deserve the full rights and privellages that any citizen is entitled to. These guys are basically saying "To hell with human rights and the rule of law' date=' we're going to kill [i']anybody[/i] we don't like, for any reason. And no one can stop us."

 

Well this exemplifies the problem. Even if the heroes can literally read peoples minds and know for full certainty what these evil people are doing, the "law" protects them. See if you order the death of people with machineguns you are a maniacal mass murderer. If you order the death of people through commerce, well you're a freaking hero in the USA. There is no difference IMO. So let's pretend the heroes can read minds or force people to tell the truth. It would not matter as the real world is about helping oneself to as much as possible and who cares about anyone else. People applaud those who "win" by grabbing huge amounts of wealth and power often don't care that they got there through evil and downright illegal means.

 

Prove it! I hear you saying. Wow.... the law saves those who have the power and money regaurdless of what they do. So the system is inherently corrupt.

 

So if one is going to use the modern real world as a backdrop for this kind of story, no matter how well intentioned or "good" the heroes are, people will hate and despise them for disrupting the status quo.

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

 

Prove it! I hear you saying. Wow.... the law saves those who have the power and money regaurdless of what they do. So the system is inherently corrupt.

 

So if one is going to use the modern real world as a backdrop for this kind of story, no matter how well intentioned or "good" the heroes are, people will hate and despise them for disrupting the status quo.

 

 

Yeah, look at how easiler Martha Steward got off for example.

 

But seriously, you didn't prove anything, You stated an opinion and backed it up with another opinion. Yes, there are flaws in the system, but nothing created by man is perfect. What would you prefer an anarchy where anyone can execute anyone else for doing what they define as wrong? Would you submit happily to some odd ball in a funny colored suit flying around killing people he didn't like because he said they were "evil" and needed to die? Only as long as he's killing people that you agree need to go? What if he comes for a loved one of yours that works at that polluting factory? Or you?

 

No, we don't live in a perfect world and sometimes evil does go unpunished. In some situations, alot of evil goes unpunished. But I don't think people are innately bad because we don't live in a communal world were everyone's first thought of the greater good. That's not buman civilization that's an ant hill.

 

But it does create an interesting idea for a "villian".... hm...

[Metaphysician]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Now there's a thought. What's left of the world's governments and indepedent super humans contacting V'han and asking her to invade Earth to liberate it from the tyranny of Wanderer's Authority Types.

 

It would have several advantages:

 

-V'Han actually improves the tech level and quality of life of places she adds to her empire, whereas these Authority-ripoff don't sound like they are doing anything constructive

 

-V'Han leaves mostly local political autonomy as long as you pay your taxes; these guys sound like they'll butt into *everything*

 

-Most importantly, the decision to allow V'Han to take over is, at this point, a *voluntary decision* by humanity. It may not be an especially good choice, but its a choice, and a better one than the option they are left with

 

Of course, now Wanderer is just going to up the power level of his tyrants so that they can repel Istvatha on their own. . .

[TheRealVector]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Ahhhg! Hippies! They say they want to save the world, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.

 

Cartman

[Wanderer]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Having got some tiny slice of free time, I’ll try to address at least some of the very clever and interesting points that Megaplayboy issued:

 

The first bunch of points:

 

 

>>. 1. Concrete details--how many points, active points, damage classes, etc for the PCs? It sounds like there will be 5 characters. If the characters are built on a really high point base, like Dr. Destroyer 5E(2500 points), then they're going to walk over any and all terrestrial opposition without much difficulty--just too powerful to have a chance of stopping. If they're built on the minimal 'cosmic' level of 700-750 points, they probably won't be capable of multitasking while facing down their toughest foes. So somewhere in between is probably the "sweet spot". 1000-1500 points or so is probably ideal, and 100-150 active points or so.>>

 

 

Well, I’d say that such a campaign would be fit for 5-12 characters or so, so the power level would be slightly dependent on the group size. That said, some basic assumptions can be defined: the characters are going to be on a similar level as the most powerful “cosmic†superhumans comic-book types: Superman, Green Lantern, Thor, Silver Surfer, Firelord, Dr. Strange, Phoenix, Apollo, Doctor, the Engineer. On a more abstract level, each of them should be able to shrug off any conventional attack except maybe a major nuclear strike (note that rules tweaks will be likely used to insure that supers are much more invulnerable to “real weapons†damage than they are to attacks from other supers), fighting, with a fair chance of winning, coordinated assaults from very large teams of lower-powered supers, crush cities or large parts of a major power’s armed forces in a time taking up at maximum a few hours to a few days. At least a sizable minority of the team should be able to perform massive large-scale “miraculous†alterations or rearranging of the environment, like mass healings, moving up or transforming large parts of the landscape, weather re-arranging, creating very large amounts of matter and the like. How much points would this require in Hero terms?? IMHO, it would require from 1600-1800 (for the combat specialists) to 1800-2000 (for the miracle-dealers). This is a very rough estimate, though, and it depends on how efficiently points are used. I would assume very liberal use of things like Variable Advantage and Power Frameworks, though. A 120-150 active points limit would be probably fine. Some powers, like Total Life Support, Immortality, Healing/Regeneration and enough Attack Powers and/or Resistant Defenses to fit the general character concept, would be expected for all characters, barring total and complete contrast with individual character concepts. So would do enough Movement powers to move around the Earth in a few hours at most.

 

 

>>2. What kind of mix of powers for the characters will there be? Obviously they'd need a super-brick, a mega-powerful energy projector, a superscientist tech genius, a magician, and maybe a mentalist or matter transmuter. Also, one of them should probably be a master tactician, another a charismatic speaker, at least one filthy rich, and one with a lot of connections. If they're too similar(built to be completely self-sufficient), it's harder to challenge them, and players sometimes resent someone stomping all over their shtick.>>

 

 

At this level of power, typical character archetypes perforce begin to mix and blur, and strict enforcement of clichés is annoying anyway, so the main difference should be between the types with “personal†or “combat†powers and the ones with “miracle-dealing†powers. The former are the ones whose powers, while being amazing in combat, are not immediately useful for making creative large-scale alterations of the environment. Except to destroy: damaging is always easier and quicker that creating. Typically some combination of brick, energy projector, psychokinetic mentalist, and maybe speedster. Clever thinking may still envision good ways of using powers to creative ends, beside combat, but it’s not an automatic thing. The latter are the ones whose powers are good for causing large-scale alterations to the world, beside smashing and blasting: summoning, moving up and transforming huge amounts of stuff, altering weather patterns, mass healings, and the like. Good character concepts would be super-magicians, very powerful psychokinetics, nano-tech matter-transmuters. I’d say that at least 1/3 of the group should be of the “miracle-dealer†type. These guys should still fit the basic “combat prowess†requirements of the general concept. It’s harder to change the world for the better if you can only efficiently destroy. Similarly, some characters (at least a couple, to allow group splitting and backup) should probably be super-smart scientific and tactical geniuses, to conceive and propose to the public innovative, environmental-friendly, solutions to problems like energy and food, and organize their world-changing campaign.

 

IMO assuming all characters are filthy rich by default would be the simplest way: either they got it from personal resources, or as being part of a close-knit team with guys who can create gold and diamonds in large amounts. At these levels of power, the characters’ array of powers is bound to show some basic similarities, especially as regards Attack, Defense and Movement Powers. It is assumed all characters fit some basic but very high-powered “competency†and “combat prowess†guidelines, and cosmic-level powers do begin to blur in each other, beyond special effects: the cosmic energy/matter manipulator is not so different from the super-mage in abilities, just like the divine scion and the stellar-powered marvel. For cosmic supers, personality (foremost), background, and special effects are much more important to differentiate characters than power specialization, archetype and team niche. Besides, at cosmic level some archetypes just become a minor facet of a character’ array of powers, like metamorph (“yeah, you can take the shape of absolutely anything. Cool. How are you going to spend the other 1400 points?â€) or weaponmaster, and others become the special effect, like martial artist (a 1500-point martial artist is just a brick/energy projector with a Chi special effect).

 

Having a cool, off-world Operations Center-like Base, typically on the moon, in a Lagrangian point, on in Earth’s orbit, might be appropriate, or at least in an exotic, isolated locale, such as the deep wilderness, underwater, airborne, or underground, might be useful, would help keeping down the civilian carnage from the unavoidable battles with the military, enemy super-teams, hordes of government super-agents or MV minions later in the campaign. In that case, raise the numbers above by the Base’s cost.

 

 

>>3. What kind of personalities do the PCs have? Are they all of exactly the same mindset? Would they have different motivations for coming to their common goal? Is one an alien, a robot, or otherwise possessed of a radically different perspective? Are they all from the same or different national backgrounds?>>

 

 

Character’s personality and background would be in the player’s choice. It would be just necessary to disallow the ones that would directly conflict with the basic campaign premise, which includes characters doing what they feel necessary, heedless of laws, and the possibility of a military confrontation with the rest of the world: deeply law-abiding types and total pacifists would be in all likelihood unfit for such a campaign, so I’d bar Psych Lim like Respectful of Authority, Total CvK, Law-Abiding, and the like. Superman has simply no place here, except as an opponent. Besides, since it’s going to take a lot of motivation and dedication to take on a campaign to completely change the world, I’d expect all characters to sport a Psych Lim or two reflecting such a dedication: stuff like Feels He Must Make the World a Better Place, Must Save Humanity from Itself, Must Protect the Environment, a modified code of the Chinese Knight-Errant Code, Vigilante Mentality, and the like. It would be interesting to take some personality trait, that would put some potential restraint to the godlike characters’ behavior in their crusade, and allow for some interesting psychological conflicts between their dedication to their objective, and the reluctance to cross some basic moral boundary: e.g. Honorable, Must Not Harm Innocents, Cannot Kill in Cold Blood, Respect Good People, Must Accept Challenges from Worthy Opponents, and the like. Some interesting inter-group conflict might be created if some characters would sport some Psych Lims that would make them more prone to rash actions than the others, like Enraged, Bad Temper, Impulsive, Aggressive or Ruthless in Combat, Vengeful, and the others having stuff like Dislikes Unnecessary Violence, Through Planner, Perfectionist, and the like. At this level of power, Overconfidence is going to be very, very common. Besides, half the campaign’s fun is likely going to come from the conflict between ends and means, so I’d probably disallow classic “villainous†Psych Lims that would make too easy to accomplish characters’ goals though widespread atrocities, like Causal Killer, Amoral, and the like. All the characters should be very, very loyal to each other, though. Personality conflict may develop with time, but as they are going to face the pressure of the whole world very soon, this is necessary to prevent the group from collapsing too soon.

 

 

>>4. What kind of disads do the PCs have? Psych lims? DNPCs? Hunteds(well, they're likely to be hunted by Do any of them have vulnerabilities, physical lims, susceptibilities, unluck, or anything that would actually be a liability in combat(on a side note, will any of them have any power limitations on their abilities)? This will basically guide the GM in figuring out how to enhance challenges for the PCs.>>

 

 

See above. Probably, a lot of Psych Lims. In all likelihood, 200-300 Disadvantages would be appropriate, and 150-200 coming from any single category. Characters in time are going to have Hunteds from pretty much any major supra-national law-enforcing organization, the governments of major powers, major law-abiding super-teams, and master villains bent on world conquest, so taking any of them as character creation would be appropriate. Likewise for taking Reputations like ruthless vigilante, eco-terrorist, and similar. Vulnerabilities, Susceptibilities, Unluck, some power limitations (especially Variable Lim, and ones like Concentration, Activation Roll, Gestures, Incantation, Increased Endurance, Visible) would all be excellent potential means to give some challenge to the godlike characters. Likewise, some power-fuelling Dependence from very common/easy to obtain substances, like sunlight, or not being underground (stellar emissions) or periodic meditation, might be appropriate. But the campaign is likely going too lethal for more exotic forms. Taking a DNPC would be a major issue for the campaign, probably to be agreed with the GM: on one hand, it would give some “common man†perspective to contrast with the transhuman and radical activist mindset of the PCs. OTOH, it may be possible that the campaign would be just too lethal and high-powered for allowing them decent chances of survival: governments, Master Villains, etc. are going pull all stops to finding any way to restrain the PCs, by blackmailing them with their loved ones’ safety, using them as booby traps, etc. OTOH, if the PCs evacuate them to their cool off-world base, are DNPC still going to be their points’ worth? Classical Phys Lims disabilities, would be likely inappropriate for the “better than human†general character concept, but some exotic ones, that reflect the most bizarre aspects of their powers, like Bizarre Biochemistry, and Weirdness Magnet, might be appropriate. So would be exotic Distinctive Features, like Mystic Aura, Energy Signature, Glowing, Strangely-Colored Skin, Visible Aura, Bulging Muscles, Unearthly Beauty, Disturbing Voice, and the like. Depending on character concept, characters either have a very, very secure Secret Identity (as any major intelligence organization will be after it very soon), which would make interesting to have Accidental Change, and/or exotic Distinctive Features, or they are going to have a Public Identity very soon, so why not pick it up at creation? Having a Rivalry with other supers with opposing goals, or sharing a similar agenda, but disagreeing about the means, would be a useful plot hook. Age would be inappropriate: all characters are going to be Immortal.

 

 

>>5. What's the general outlook of the campaign setting? Is it totally bleak, or are there good people doing their best in a bad system? Are all superagents and superpatriots corrupt and complicit, or are some of them merely "misinformed and misguided"? Is the public really that stupid, selfish, and cynical, or are there actually a lot of people who are paying attention and trying to change things>>

 

 

Very definitely Iron Age, and Shades Of Grey. The vast majority of authority figures are definitely selfish and corrupt, or at the very least misguided by their prejudices and much more interested in preserving their positions and privileges than the common good. The system as a whole is inefficient and corrupt: some good people exist in it, here and there, doing their best, but generally lack the power to make a real difference on the large scale. Others are misguided or honor-bound to heed the corrupt authorities, or honestly feel that the system is the “lesser evil†choice. Corporations are always looking to cutting any possible corner, up to genuine atrocities, heedless of negative consequences, for the bottom line, and must be forced kicking and screaming to heed the general good, if a potential for even more profit exists. As an average, the majority of general public is too apathetic, misguided and duped by the system and the corrupt media, and burdened by a huge lot of stupid, short-sighted, selfish and cynical people, to make any difference for the better, and all too often takes the worst decision. A sizable number of good people that pay attention and try to change things, does exist, but they are too few, and lack the influence, to make any large-scale difference in the face of the system’s and the majority’s flaws and faults. Crime is rampant, social injustices and the wrongs caused or tolerated by the system are disgusting, and escalating environmental damage appears bound to completely ruin the planet’s biosphere and make the planet unfit for human life in a few generations, but authorities and the majority of the public are too shortsighted, corrupt, and cynical to really make something about it.

 

Not too different from RW, in other words...

 

The characters' morality or villainous lack of it in utterly disregarding laws, setting themselves as judge, jury (and, if necessary, executioner; the degree of civilian suffering may surely be an issue in the campaign, but it is assumed that characters will not have any qualms in using lethal force on "evil" people or in combat situations; definition of "evil" people may vary, but will never include "innocent civilians that oppose them by peaceful means"; e.g. a CEO that orders actions resulting in severe environmental damage is not innocent by any stripe), opposing authorities, democratically-elected or not, and otherwise setting themselves outside the law and above human justice, per se, is not regarded as an interesting issue, and will therefore taken for granted. It is assumed they had sufficient motivation for their choice, and are sufficiently secure in it, that they are not likely to have changes of heart, barring truly massive changes to the setting, either caused by their actions or otherwise. If necessary, the scenario will be altered to ensure that this condition remains true. Therefore it is a really annoying waste of bandwidh to lecture the thread starter about it. It is a basic, unchanging assumption of the scenario. If you feel this makes the character villains, terrorists, sociopaths, or the like, feel free. The scenario stands unchanged. If the very idea is abhorrent to you, and feel the urge to preach about it, please ignore the thread.

 

OTOH, a major issue of the scenario will be the congruity of the characters' goals with the means, the consequences of their actions, and their overall degree of success in making the world a better place: are they truly making a difference for the better? Is the suffering they are creating balanced by a greater amount of good? Are they succumbing to the same corruption they started off to fight? Are their actions still bound by basic morality, decence, honor??

[Metaphysician]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Anybody who thinks iron age = real world does not live in the real world.

[Hermit]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Anybody who thinks iron age = real world does not live in the real world.

 

I agree with that. Part of my problem with the "Iron Age" is that it's often portrayed as dwelling so ridiculously on the darker aspects that it ends up as farsical (if not more so) than any 4 color parody.

 

Mind you, that's not ALWAYS the case, but it happens enough that it keeps my preference for Silver/Bronze firmly intact.

[Vondy]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

I agree with that. Part of my problem with the "Iron Age" is that it's often portrayed as dwelling so ridiculously on the darker aspects that it ends up as farsical (if not more so) than any 4 color parody.

 

Mind you, that's not ALWAYS the case, but it happens enough that it keeps my preference for Silver/Bronze firmly intact.

I'm very careful when I use the term iron age to specify my meaning because a lot of gamers think it means amoral bloodfest.

 

I use it as a reference for a game containing grittier, more realistic plots, characters, and stories; as well as games that have strong continuity and somewhat lower overall power levels. A lack of costumes and a narrower source of powers is also often a factor.

 

Iron age doesn't in any way mean "real world," but it is more synonymous with more "realistic." (sort of).

[Wanderer]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

>>6. How many other active paranormals/posthumans exist, and how powerful are they? You have to decide whether or not any rival top tier teams exist, and if they have philosophical differences with the PCs. Even if no other top tier teams exist, are there comparably powerful individual supers who might come into conflict with the PCs? Are there dozens, hundreds, or thousands of superhumans? For cosmic-level PCs to have emerged, there would likely have to be at least several hundred superhumans around the world. That's a pretty large pool of potential allies and enemies. Some of them may be persuaded willingly, some may measure the PCs by their actions/results, and some may be diametrically opposed, no matter what.>>

 

 

By all means a sizable superhuman population should exist, at least numbering in the hundreds, if not thousands. It is necessary, to give PCs a decent pool of true peers (to reflect on the characters’ actions), worthy opponents (to ensure that mandatory component of the story, combat, keeps some decent thrill, and is not limited to the PCs smashing tank division after tank division), and potential allies and enemies. Since truly cosmic-level beings have emerged, it might be more likely that at least some thousands of supers exist: for a pinnacle to stand, generally a sizable base should be present. To justify the generally grim state of the world, it may be assumed that the emergence of superhumans is a fairly recent phenomenon, a handful of years at most, and that the PCs are among the first supers to achieve cosmic-levels of power, and/or to decide to work outside the system for general betterment’s sake, instead of selfish self-aggrandizement (like classical super-villains), or selling out to the system (like super-agents). Alternatively, it might be assumed that whatever force is creating supers, is keeping their numbers fairly low (in the hundreds), but their average level of power is rather high, or very high.

 

 

BTW, since the setting is rather grim, it might be best to limit potential origins to the less cheesy types, and keep them fairly unified, an handful at most: mutations (maybe allowing supers the unconscious ability to alter reality), magic (especially if it is more of the modern syncretist “chaos†variety, and strict resemblance to occult traditions is downplayed), genetic manipulation, and broadly-interpreted psychic powers all would work fine, but outlandish “radiation accidentsâ€, divine beings, super-athletes, martial artists, weaponmasters, and the like would probably be inappropriate. Super-derived hyper-tech may be a good origin, as long as a realistic explanation is given why it ihas not spread out to reshape society (e.g. it is so complex that only super-smart paranormals can truly understand it, at present). Alien and/or extra-dimensional heritage may or may not be appropriate, but it is probably best if the presence of alien races and alternate dimensions is downplayed in the setting, as it is going to focus on Earth’s problems.

 

Real divine beings (especially ethically polarized ones such as angels/demons) are very likely inappropriate for this kind of setting. It works best in a transhuman perspective, where the only godlike figures, if any, are evolved super-humans, or very distant, incomprehensible alien beings. No definite external frame of reference should exist for PCs' morality, beyond individual conscience. It would be an appropriate, ironic twist if prolific cults existed, worshipping very powerful supers.

 

 

Ideally, the power level of other supers in the setting should be set so that very, very large assembles of other supers may represent a definite threat to the PCs, but not ensure their certain downfall. Likewise, even if it is assumed that the PCs are definitely among the most powerful superbeings in the world, if not the most powerful ever, it might be interesting to assume that another team of supers with a similar (maybe slightly lower, so that their team-up with lower supers does not ensure the PCs’ downfall) power level, to provide a recurring opponent in the campaign. Recurring enemy or rival NPCs should likely oppose the group out of idealistic, selfless dedication to the status quo, (misguided) honor bond or duty to authority figures, avoid using lethal force against the group, or have other recognizably “good†motivations, which characters may reluctantly respect, as truly villainous enemies are bound to be slaughtered by characters first time they lose a battle, unless they have very good means to survive or escape it (e.g. using robot doubles, teleporting away at the last minute, resurrection plot devices, using proxies).

 

 

It may be that characters are somewhat more hesitant in using lethal force against fellow super, both because, at the cosmic level, they feel more of a gut empathy bond with superhumans than common normals, and because they may see supers’ lives as inherently more precious (the same way the life of a great scientist, scholar or artist, or of young, healthy people is deemed more precious than the one of mentally-disadvantaged, old or severely ill people).

 

 

>>7. What sort of governmental and extra-governmental superagencies exist? What is their level of capability? For example, if there's a Stronghold-type facility, would it actually be capable of holding a PC? As you say, hordes of elite super-agents would likely be necessary to pose any sort of challenge for cosmic-level PCs.>>

 

 

Some kind of super-agency, set up to deal with emerging supers, either by major powers’ governments, or through international organizations, is likely to exist, and to have access to both some degree of super-tech, and some supers in its ranks and payroll. Like any government organization in the setting, its controlling authorities and a sizable part of its rank and file are likely to be corrupt, selfishly power-grabbing, or upholding the status quo out of blind obedience, shortsightedness, or willful ignorance. Other members, however, might oppose characters out of (misguided) idealism, sense of honor or selfless dedication to duty, and/or restrain to use non-lethal force against the characters. The characters would likely try to spare, and avoid unnecessary damage, the latter, at least the first time. The self-serving, blindly-obedient, and willful ignorant would be fought without qualms, if appropriate with lethal force, and the truly corrupted ones would be terminated with extreme prejudice, just like their peers in other sectors of society.

 

 

Their level of capability of non-super agents is going to be the same of very low-powered supers, likely provided by advanced tech. Huge numbers of such agents would be necessary to cause a significant bother for characters, unless they’d be working with true supers. A Stronghold-type facility may or may not exist, but it is not really likely to be able to hold cosmic-level characters as ordinary prison inmates: they might be possibly dealt with exceptional, stopgap measures, such as “hot sleep†suspended-animation techniques, exile to different dimensions, deep mental reconditioning, all bound to ultimately fail. The only really effective way to deal with a rogue cosmic-level superhuman would be to persuade him to change its ways, or kill him (and ensure it does not resurrect).

 

 

>>8. What sort of special exotic hardware is available to the top world military powers? In a world of superhumans, would the military have deployed anti-super weapons and tactics? It may not be nearly as easy as it would be in a RW setting, if supers have been around for a few procurement/R&D cycles.>>

 

 

Major governments might have limited access to some kind of super-tech weapons, mainly through the efforts of genius paranormals in their employ, but it would be mainly restricted to the government super-agencies established to deal with paranormals, and ordinary armed forces would have access to the same . or just slightly improved, degree of weapons they have in RW.

 

 

>>9. Master Villains--both with a small m and a big M. How many MVs exist, and is/are there MVs capable of posing a threat to the entire team? Would any of them ally with each other if the PCs started offing villains? A mastermind or puppeteer type could well manipulate events behind the scenes to either undermine the PCs efforts, or get them to remove obstacles to the villain's own goals.>>

 

 

Some MVs, (anything from an handful to a score) may exist in the setting, to provide truly “bad†opposition to the PCs, that does not come from society’s evils and corrupt authorities. They’d likely be rogue very high-powered superhumans, superscientist tech geniuses, and super-magicians. Generally they should be of comparable power to the PCs, so that they may pose a genuine threat to them, especially by accurate planning, clever use of characters’ weaknesses, a team-up among themselves, and similar tactics. Probably they would have personal powers similar to individual PCs (since we are assuming they are among the most powerful supers ever), and make up the difference though liberal use of elite minions, superagents, and super-tech. Both truly evil ones should exist (but they would need some good way of escaping the PC’s wrath, or they might not survive their first defeat), and for an ironic twist, ones that have an idealistic agenda similar to the PC’s one, just somewhat more ruthless. The latter type are more fit to become recurring NPCs. Super-villain alliances are very likely to develop in the wake of the PC’s crusade. It would have the ironic effect of making villains more effective, which may alienate the characters… or move them to redouble efforts. Really clever MVs might succeed in manipulating PCs into fulfilling their own goals, or undermining their efforts (maybe by compromising the PC’s information source to cause them harm innocents). This might cause PCs to question their crusade, at least for a while, or plunge into it with renewed dedication.

[Wanderer]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Anybody who thinks iron age = real world does not live in the real world.

 

If you don't fancy the term Iron Age, just substitute it with "absolutely not four-color". Terms to describe post-80's comic books settings and moods are fuzzy anyway.

 

Iron Age doesn't fit the scenario perfectly, besides: while some elements are there (realistic or "somewhat darker than real" societal conditions, plots, and stories, greater combat violence and lethality, attention to realistic consequences of superpowers, conflict with the law, vigilante mentality, exploration of the concept of "hero", concentration on society's ills), others definitely do not (amorality, lesser power levels than Silver/Bronze Age). It is just a handy label to give a quick general idea about the setting, such as Golden/Silver Age.

 

Iron Age may not be completely realistic, but surely is, and ever was, definitely much more so than the Silver one (except maybe in the wet dreams of hard-core conservatives).

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

 

Iron Age may not be completely realistic, but surely is, and ever was, definitely much more so than the Silver one (except maybe in the wet dreams of hard-core conservatives).

 

If you don't want people to preach at you, don't soapbox at them. Word of advice, take it as you will.

[Wormhole]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

If you don't want people to preach at you' date=' don't soapbox at them. Word of advice, take it as you will.[/quote']

Best to just put him on your ignore list, it's unlikely he'll take your advice.

[Wanderer]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

If you don't want people to preach at you' date=' don't soapbox at them. Word of advice, take it as you will.[/quote']

 

I fail to understand what I shouldn't do with soap, but I might as well retract the comment, as it is really superflous. Let's instead say that Silver Age was how the '50s imagined and wished their society was like (at least the segments of society that were in the position to shape imaginary), Iron Age and Cyberpunk was how the '90s imagined and feared their society was or was going to be...

 

Since a definite different societal mood has yet to emerge for the current decade, there is justification to deem Iron Age and Cyberpunk more "realistic". Or, in other words, what depiction of society currently seems more realistic: "Dark Angel", or "Pleasantville" ?

[dalton]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Since a definite different societal mood has yet to emerge for the current decade, there is justification to deem Iron Age and Cyberpunk more "realistic". Or, in other words, what depiction of society currently seems more realistic: "Dark Angel", or "Pleasantville" ?

________________________________________________________________

 

Neither of them, one is too dark and the other too bright (and scary...very scary)

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

I fail to understand what I shouldn't do with soap, but I might as well retract the comment, as it is really superflous. Let's instead say that Silver Age was how the '50s imagined and wished their society was like (at least the segments of society that were in the position to shape imaginary), Iron Age and Cyberpunk was how the '90s imagined and feared their society was or was going to be...

 

Since a definite different societal mood has yet to emerge for the current decade, there is justification to deem Iron Age and Cyberpunk more "realistic". Or, in other words, what depiction of society currently seems more realistic: "Dark Angel", or "Pleasantville" ?

 

To "get on a soapbox" is too make a speech, ususally of a political/moral nature from an assumed point of superority. Basically, to preach at someone.

 

To answer your question, and ignore the fact that "Plesantville" (if I'm thinking of the correct movie*) was intended to be parody and Dark Angel relatively dramatic, neither of them is realistic. "Dark Angel" (and other cyberpunk tales) are about dystopias and worst case scenarios. They are overy negative as they assume the worst will happen and the most base will win out. That is a irrealistic as assuming the best will always happen. If examined closely many so called "cyberpunk/dark" worlds approach parody in their negative outlook. Cynical does not equal realistic. Like you said, Cyberpunk was an expression of fears. Fears are not nessecarily truths.

[NecroBob]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Let's see, point total has be qouted as being between 1600-2000 points.... gee why not make it difficult for the players.

 

I especially enjoyed your statement on the groups wealth as to make it easy let's just say a) personal resources or they are close friends with the guy that can create gold and diamonds in masse. For a guy wanting realism you seem to really enjoy taking shortcuts in the setup of this munchkin fest..*cough*..I mean realistic game.

 

It was a nice plot idea, but really your own scope of reality seems very narrow at times with your own views of reality.

 

The actions your heros do will more often than not provoke many more negative aspects if pulled off as calously as you state them.

 

Example 1: SAVE THE WHALES

To save the whales, the heros begin to sink the ships. The corporates shrug their shoulders and begin concentrating their resources elsewhere if its cheaper just to let these supers have their way. Meanwhile the average joe, who while not really a bad guy but depended on the industry is left with his last check and is now jobless.

 

Example 2: TYRANT

The heros dispose of the dictator of a small country after broadcasting his beating and confession worldwide. The citizens already knew about the tyrants cause but could do nothing about it so you do earn some points with them. Of course if you stick around they will get the feeling you're just moving into his spot. Leave with the threat to the next guy who wants to fill the seat of power that you'll be watching...okay this can go bad two ways: 1. "I'll just have to be sneakier than the last guy." 2. The poor guy is so scared of your threat always looming over his shoulder he's unable to fulfill his duties. Like running a country wasn't stressful enough.

 

Example 3: NO MORE POOR

There is no immediate solution and likely most things you do will end up screwing things up worse. You don't sound deluded enough to shower the poor with gold coins to give them a means to survive as really that's just silly and would cause more economics problems by depretiating the value of golds, etc. Spotaneously creating food is just as bad, because well then they rely on you.

 

Okay really the more I go over it the more sad the whole things becomes. The above scenarios are taken from a cynical devil's advocate stance [my favored version] what goes wrong can and will. Some good may come of the actions after a time, but the change is a slow and painful one.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

1600-2000 point heroes. Why do I somehow doubt Wanderer is gonna create a roster of new 3000-4000 point villains??

[The Watcher]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

1600-2000 point heroes. Why do I somehow doubt Wanderer is gonna create a roster of new 3000-4000 point villains??

1600-2000! Eh, with that many points you might as well buy a planetary-level MegaScale Transform: World into Utopia, and skip all the messy intervening steps.