Character creation problems solved

[Gunrunner]

Here are some option rules I use to solve common problems with players during the character creation process. I hope they are useful to GM's who are experiencing the same issues

 

In order to solve the problem of EVERY player in my fantasy campaign maxing out their DEX and/or STR, I implemented this new character creation method:

 

Have your players choose a primary characteristic as their main characteristic. Have that player then roll 4d6 four times and take the highest value (this usually yields results between 16 and 19). This value is the highest that player can make this primary characteristic. For the rest of that player's primary characteristics, have them roll 3d6 four times for each characteristic, taking the highest value. I usually allow characters to apply these max values to whichever primary characteristic they want (except their main one) All players still have to pay for their characteristics normally, and they obviously do not have to have their characteristics at their maximum value.

 

Doing this creates unique characters where all warriors don't have 20 STR or all rogues don't have 20 DEX, yet all characters are still equal in that they all are made on the same number of character points. Try it!

 

Other tips:

 

In order to prevent players from making characters that are "one weapon wonders" I allow a maximum of two 2 point CSL's and three 3 point CSL's for each weapon group.

 

Buying more levels of DEX to increase CV is more efficient than buying 5 point CSL's (9 points for a +3 DEX gives a +1 to overall OCV AND DCV, as well as a +.3 to SPD, while 10 points for two 5 point CSL's only gives a flexible +2 to OCV or DCV and only useful for HTH combat) The only advantage that buying 5 or 8 point CSL's have over buying higher levels of DEX besides being flexible is that the CSL's can be used to increase damage. Well, the players in my campaign figured out that they can just max out their DEX and buy the deadly blow talent instead of buying more CSL's. So in order to prevent players in my campaign from maxing out their DEX instead of buying CSL's, as well as to preserve the uniqueness a heavy fighter has for dealing out large amounts of damage, I outlawed the deadly blow talent.

By doing this, players now have more incentive to buy CSL's since they need the CSL's to increase damage against heavily armored foes, something a high CV from having a 20 DEX cannot do.

 

Also, in order to encourage players to create characters that prefer not to wear armor, I allow ONE level of combat luck that is not stackable with other sources of PD/ED. I also created a talent that I call "Barbarian's Agility" in honor of Conan's preference for armorless fighting. Here it is:

 

Talent - Barbarian's Agility +3 to DCV against all attacks (Conditional Limitation: Only when wearing no armor; -1/2) 10 points

 

Tell me what you think!

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

Tell me what you think!

 

No personal offense intended, but what I think is that if I wanted to play a game with random rolled characteristics, I'd play D&D.

 

I will say to this what I say when similar sentiments pop up. If you don't want your players maxing out their DEX, SPD, and STR, give them things besides combat to do, and make those things matter. If all they want to do is combat, let them max out their stats.

 

The behavior you will see is the behavior that gets rewarded. If the guys who are combat optimized are having the most fun, everyone will become combat optimized.

 

I like the Barbarian's Agility talent.

 

I've never played with Deadly Blow, so I don't know how it works in practice, but if it doesn't work for you then by all means outlaw it.

[Snarf]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

I agree with Archer, the cure is worse than the disease if you resort to randomly rolled stats.

 

What I like it to do is not only specifically emphasize other stats in planning my games, but also explain why they're useful to players and make them look interesting. In a combat centered game I'm doing, I've started creating some background skills that have combat utility, so buying intelligence wouldn't feel like wasted points. Due to the specifics of the magic system in that game, it's almost required that at least one person in the group know skills like KS: Monsters.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

How about MY fix:

 

Build the PC's on Campions level points.

 

No, really. NCM is silly anyway.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

I don't know if I want the players in my campaign making characters with 40 STR, which I can see happening with no NCM. That's not very realistic to me. But I guess it could work if you raise the characteristic maxima within reason.

 

I'm sorry you don't like my house rule archer, but to each his own I guess. Nobody in my campaign really minds it, and it seems to work fine. Yes, it is kind of Dungeons and Dragonsish, but what's wrong with that? I share the same disdain for the D&D d20 system as you do, perhaps even more so. This is mainly because I don't believe D&D does a good job of simulating reality (putting magic aside, since there's really no basis for reality there) not because I think that there's nothing good about D&D. Further on that point, to allow players to create characters where every wizard has 20 INT and every warrior has 20 STR is to allow the game to fall into the D&D trap - not simulating reality very well. I explained my view on this to the other players in my campaign and - while not all of them necessarily like it - they all understand and agree that it makes sense - kinda the way that they would feel by telling them that they can't start out with magical weapons/armor. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in sacrificing fun for the sake of simulating reality, but sometimes part of the fun is creating a sense of realism that the players can see.

 

I do however like the idea of emphasizing and rewarding other talents/abilities not combat related through the campaign. Although my campaign is very action/combat oriented, I will put my efforts toward doing this more. Thank you all for the feedback, I appreciate constructive criticism.

[UltraRob]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

I don't know if I want the players in my campaign making characters with 40 STR, which I can see happening with no NCM. That's not very realistic to me. But I guess it could work if you raise the characteristic maxima within reason.

 

When I tired to run a FH campaign on Champions level points (150+100) and no NCM, I ended up with exactly that...characters that weren't even remotely human, and were more or less demi-gods/superheros. Including a dude(tte) with STR:40...So I hear where you're coming from. No sir, I didn't like it at all. (and now only run FH at 75+50)

Actually a more practical solution to your problem really might be making most of the NCM Stats max out at 25 or 30 instead of 20, which is something I never thought of before, but in conjuction with 125 or 150pt characters might actually work quite well. They will have greater levels of potential, but still be at a "human" level for the most part.

 

I do however like the idea of emphasizing and rewarding other talents/abilities not combat related through the campaign. Although my campaign is very action/combat oriented, I will put my efforts toward doing this more. Thank you all for the feedback, I appreciate constructive criticism.

 

Actually, if the HEROs here recall, what you have done is institute what the Rolemaster RPG called the "potential stat" system. In Rolemaster you rolled twice for all your stats, the first roll was your current stat, and the second roll was how far you could go through experience, since everyone has different peaks and valleys in their natural abilities and how far they could push them. Worked well in Rolemaster.

Rob

[Snarf]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

I share the same disdain for the D&D d20 system as you do, perhaps even more so. This is mainly because I don't believe D&D does a good job of simulating reality...

Hero System isn't really intended for simulating reality either. It's specifically stated that it simulates the dramatic reality of comic books and adventure stories. You should try a game like GURPS sometime if realism is important to you.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

Don't get me wrong' date=' I don't believe in sacrificing fun for the sake of simulating reality, but sometimes part of the fun is creating a sense of realism that the players can see. [/quote']

 

Snarf, I knew someone was going to say this and that is exactly the reason I said this in my reply.

 

Thanks for the input UltraRob! Never tried Rolemaster, but I have seen it before. I like the idea of characters having different levels of potential.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

Using background skills that have combat utility is a good idea too, Snarf. Thanks for the suggestion. I've tried GURPS before, but I'm not too crazy about it. Hero is more flexible and fun. Is it more realistic? I think it can be realistic if you use some optional rules, but I don't want to slow the game down either.

[Snarf]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

I had the same experience with GURPS. I struggled to fit my ideas to the system, doing things like trying to kludge together the seperate psionics and super powers systems for a Wild Cards style "all super powers are psi powers" type game. Later, once I understood how flexible and integrated Hero was, I ditched GURPS entirely.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that players can go above their characteristic maximum value through gaining experience, but they have to start equal or lower to that maximum STARTING level.

[sbarron]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

I'm sorry' date=' I forgot to mention that players can go above their characteristic maximum value through gaining experience, but they have to start equal or lower to that maximum STARTING level.[/quote']

 

I moved away from discouraging high starting characteristics. If you make 20 be the starting cap, then yes, you get characters clustered at 20 in useful characteristics. But if there is no cap, and I want to play a strong fighter, paying the extra 5 pts to get a 25 STR might be worth it. The extra 3 pts for a 23 STR almost certainly is. and it allows me to distinguish my character from the group. Same thing with Dex, Int, and Pre. Going over 20 takes some dedication to that characteristic. I think that's ok.

[UltraRob]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

I moved away from discouraging high starting characteristics. If you make 20 be the starting cap' date=' then yes, you get characters clustered at 20 in useful characteristics. But if there is no cap, and I want to play a strong fighter, paying the extra 5 pts to get a 25 STR might be worth it. The extra 3 pts for a 23 STR almost certainly is. and it allows me to distinguish my character from the group. Same thing with Dex, Int, and Pre. Going over 20 takes some dedication to that characteristic. I think that's ok.[/quote']

 

A valid point, even when I had my players cluster at DEX:20, there was always one that paid for DEX:21 just so he could go first.

 

Rob

[Rick]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

You know how I deal W/PC's who try to max out str and dex: I say NO! If it's appropriate for a character to have a 20 Dex they get it. However the Crab clan Beserker isn't going to have a 20 dex but maybe a 20 str. However the farm boy would be hero may have good attributes but nothing maxed out.

[Markdoc]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

My solution.

#1 Increase the cost of STR to 2 points per.

#2 Use lower starting points.

 

That means to max out STR, the character has to actually commit a good chunk of his points to it. If he wants to play a Conan-style barbarian with maxed out STR and DEX, then his other options will be pretty limited.

 

But the real kicker - and only lasting solution - is:

#3 Make non-combat matter. Once players find other things to start spending their points, then they will start to develop in other ways than just rushing whatever max you have set.

 

If you compare 2 150 point fighters - one built from scratch on 150 points and one built on 75 points plus 75 points of hard-earned experience, then the former almost always has higher Stat.s and fewer anciliary abilities/skills.

 

As for rolling Stat.s I do that sometimes for my NPCs, but it's not really something I'd inflict on my players.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Plucky]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

Has anyone tried the suggestion of limiting the amount of points players can spend on characteristics versus talents/skills? How did it work?

 

Plucky

[Gunrunner]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

Thanks for the ideas everyone.

 

I already do run a campaign with characters built on 75/75 character points, so it's not like I'm starting the PC's out too powerful or anything. I've carefully considered all these ideas before and here are my thoughts:

 

Increasing the cost of STR is just going to encourage all players to just max out their DEX instead.

 

Limiting the number of points players can spend on characteristics...it could possibly work, but since STR is so cheap anyways that won't stop players from maxing it out.

 

Maybe combine both ideas??? Increasing the cost of STR while limiting the number of points players can put in primary characteristics - this might make players think twice about maxing out their DEX if they have to reserve more points to put into STR.

 

Another thought I had is to make a gradual increase in cost for primary characteristics beyond 15.

 

For example...

 

To go from DEX 14 to DEX 15 costs 3 cp's; DEX 16 costs 4, DEX 17 costs 5, etc.

 

For STR - STR 16 costs 2, STR 17 costs 3, STR 18 costs 4, etc.

 

Basically a cumulative cost increase of 1 cp for values beyond 15 for primary characteristics. This method could be used for skill costs as well to prevent characters from having godlike skill levels (after all, it only costs about a mere 19 points in a skill to give him a skill level of 20 - which according to page 29 of the rulebook would make him "perhaps the greatest master of the Skill in history"). This way only those truly dedicated in their craft will be the best. It also makes more sense, as the learning curve for most skills and abilities evens out at higher levels of expertise - and as such requires a GREAT amount of dedication (i.e. more character points) to improve.

 

Or you could simply limit the starting level characters can have in skills That would be easiest

[keithcurtis]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

Balance it with XP.

 

Establish general caps on all primary stats. If someone exceeds 1 stat, they get 1 less xp per award time. If they exceed 2 or more, they get penalized 2, max. You may have to adjust it to mach your specific campaign style and xp awarding schedule, but you get the idea.

 

The key to making this work is either:

A) don't let them increase their primaries after character creation

or less drastic:

impose them beginning immediately after they do increase a characteristic.

 

Power gamers hate getting shafted XP's far more than they love min-maxing in my experience.

 

Keith "The GM's friend" Curtis

[johnflang]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

One house rule that is common in all the Hero games I play is 10 percent of all points must be spent on lang, KS, sciences, AK, professions, and contacts this help balance out the tendency to concentrate on useful combat abilities and make the characters more balanced. Try it we love it.

 

I am also a big fan of stating campaign limits at beginning of the campaign so that why the GM does not have to NERF a character becuase they are too powerful compared too everyone else in the group. My limits are based on starting and scale up with total point value. I also use the limits in the design of my NPC.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

I don't think that changing the existing normal character max rules is necessary to get good spreads among characters if you just ask you players to choose a nich just as in a good supers game and by default have a good spread of character arch-types.

 

A spell caster is just not gonna get that much out of a dex much higher than 15-18 if he has spells that involve concentrate. If he has invested in the use of magic and has access to basic defensive spells he will depend on them more often than having a high base DCV. A spell caster arguably should have the lowest Str and Dex scores in a group.

 

On the other end, if a fighter wants to spend 30 points for a 30 Str or an acrobat/rogue type wants to spend 48 points for a 23 Dex they should be allowed. 30 Str works out almost exactly to the old 1st edition D&D 18/00 Str and should be allowed for someone. In a 75/75 game this is a major expenditure of points and dictates that the character is going to have other weaknesses. The 23 Dex character could easily meet a 20 Dex opponent who has 6 extra points in lightning reflexes giving +4 Dex for initiative only (24 Initiative/Dex for a total cost of 36 vs 48 for the 23 Dex character).

 

Back to Str, certain weapon's Str minimum's actually work out better with odd levels of Str. Steer you min/max players towards this and 17, 22 or 24 Str amounts might be seen.

[Rick]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

WEll character concept should rule in this area. The only cap we have in our L5R is that your base CV's + levels can't be higher than 9...and that comes before MA, so people W/MA's get higher CV's than the norm. Our group looks like this:

 

Togashi Sume-(Tatooed, ass kicking Martial Artist, Monk) 18dex (may become a 20), 15str, 18con, 13body. (me )

 

Akodo Kaneka-(Akodo General in training son of the Daimyo, bad ass samuri) 12(14 W/Lightning Ref) Dex, 15 con, 15 str, 13 body

 

Toritaka-(Crab, former Falcon, Spirit hunter) 22str, 14dex, 18con, 18body

 

Kitsu-(Lion shuegenja/wannabe samuri) 12 str, 12 dex, 14 con, and 12 body

 

SOme stats will get a bit higher here and there, for the most part these are as the characters are seen by us in our minds' eye.

 

This is the olny real cap we need to keep us in line. The CV and level cap is a convenience for the GM so he can predict the difficulty level of a combat encounter.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

Good ideas guys I've implemented some of them in my campaign already. Keep the suggestions coming!

[cyst13]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

In theory, emphasizing non-combat skills in the campaign as a way of encouraging players to spend their points on these skills sounds good. In practice, the reward/punishment only comes after the character creation period. Once you've spent all your points on Str, Dex, and CSLs, you may come to regret not having any non-combat skills, but it's a little late by that point. You can't go back and reallocate mid-campaign.

 

If you want your players to spend their points in a certain way, just make sure you communicate honestly with them while they are building their guys. I hear so many GMs on these boards devising devious ways to coerce their players into a certain form of behavior, it makes me wonder just how fun these games can be. If your players aren't willing to listen to reasonable suggestions about character creation, they probably aren't worth your time.

[Markdoc]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

>>> If you want your players to spend their points in a certain way, just make sure you communicate honestly with them while they are building their guys. I hear so many GMs on these boards devising devious ways to coerce their players into a certain form of behavior, it makes me wonder just how fun these games can be. If your players aren't willing to listen to reasonable suggestions about character creation, they probably aren't worth your time.<<<

 

I think that even good players often have a differen picture in their head to start with than the one that evolves during play. As a result I prefer to give my players a detailed description to start with but also start them on relatively low points totals: that allows them to work towards their physical ideal if that still attracts them, or spend points on other things if that turns out to appeal.

 

cheers, Mark

[Nuke]

Re: Character creation problems solved

 

Balance it with XP.

 

Establish general caps on all primary stats. If someone exceeds 1 stat, they get 1 less xp per award time. If they exceed 2 or more, they get penalized 2, max. You may have to adjust it to mach your specific campaign style and xp awarding schedule, but you get the idea.

 

The key to making this work is either:

A) don't let them increase their primaries after character creation

or less drastic:

impose them beginning immediately after they do increase a characteristic.

 

Power gamers hate getting shafted XP's far more than they love min-maxing in my experience.

 

Keith "The GM's friend" Curtis

 

[Disclaimer: assuming a "heroic" fantasy hero campaign]

I apologize, but I've never agreed with the "don't increase after creation" concept. Why can't somebody "get stronger"? That's a common concept in our world to work to better ourselves, especially if you are constantly out adventuring, working, training, etc... The reason the book has a "normal stat maximum" is to keep this in line?

 

I also wouldn't care for getting shafted on XP. I made my character more heroic, and as such I don't gain as much experience. How else do you end up with heroes of legend if your characters do not grow in stature and power beyond what is required?

 

At the same time, statistics should NOT be linear in cost above human (or your GM set) maximum. Our campaigns increases the cost very similar to one of the earlier suggestions in concept. At 20 (max), the cost doubles. At 25, it triples, at 30 it quadruples, etc... What you'll find is that getting stats beyond 25 is incredibly difficult, and that naturally skills and levels begin to become more important.

 

This number can easily be tuned to your campaign level. I really like the suggestion above where the cost goes up by one for each value above 15, I think that is great! That way, a person who sees their character as being "Hercules" someday can truly achieve it if they focus hard and devote their concept. Of course, compared to the "swordsman" in the party who has bought many combat levels, the HErcules guy can't hit squat!

 

I've seen this work in several campaigns spanning several game systems. I can understand how in low fantasy, stats buying could be trouble, but even then I would allow characters to buy the stats, I would just increase the difficulty curve (make the points cost double every value above 10 for example, OUCH!).