4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

[Demonsong]

4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

Ok, I am building a Brick with 4 arms (multiple limbs +1/4 Inherent = 6 points) and I want him to be able to punch multiple times every times with every attacks. So the simplest and best (IMO) way to do it is to buy +1/4 Auto Fire X3 with up to 12D6 for 15 points. Obviously his STR is 60. And this will cost 6 +1+1+1 = 9 Endurance per attack (that 3 punches because you only pay for STR use once). Unless I am missing something…. Again:)

 

That works for me but is it cool with every one else? Some people don’t like naked advantages on Strength.

 

There are 3 other options I have found the 1st is to buy the Hand-to-Hand Power. 6D6 Hand-To-Hand +1/4 Auto Fire X3 for 37 points. Same effect but it cost a lot more in points and endurance. Endurance cost is 3+4+4+4 =15.

 

Or I could buy rapid attack and a lot of PSL to buy off the -2 penalties on the second and third punch. But that 1/2's his already low DCV from 5 to 3. And some how just doesn’t feel right because then his ability is based on skill and not the fact that he has four arms.

 

And the last method is to by increased speed with a -1/2 Only for punching. Now I think it is just too expensive and dose not create the effect I am looking for.

 

So did I miss something?

 

What do you like the best?

 

Thanks

[Guest Kolava]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

It seems sort of strange to have "autofire". That would basically mean he moves all four arms at the same time, and if one misses then the whole batch misses. If that's what you were going for then go ahead, but I think the sweep penalty skill levels would actually be a better choice. After all, even when he has two extra arms, that many swings is going to put him a little off balance.

 

Another option is HA with "reduced penatration"; I've seen this used for double weapon attacks in the past.

[Solomon]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

Ok, I am building a Brick with 4 arms (multiple limbs +1/4 Inherent = 6 points) and I want him to be able to punch multiple times every times with every attacks. So the simplest and best (IMO) way to do it is to buy +1/4 Auto Fire X3 with up to 12D6 for 15 points. Obviously his STR is 60. And this will cost 6 +1+1+1 = 9 Endurance per attack (that 3 punches because you only pay for STR use once). Unless I am missing something…. Again:)

 

Actually, during and Autofire attack you must pay END separately for each "shot", that is, you'd end up paying 6+6+6=18 END per attack. Unless I am missing something.

 

That works for me but is it cool with every one else? Some people don’t like naked advantages on Strength.

 

I'd allow it in my campaign, but consider that it would count as a 75 AP main attack, for campaign limits' purposes.

[Gary]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

The rules FAQ specifically states that for autofire Str, you pay End for each shot.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

Correction on the autofire ... He stops when one misses...

 

First hit, Second miss, 3+ miss

First miss - all miss.

First hit, Second Hit, Third Hit, Fourth Miss, 5+ miss

and so on...

 

I think a Naked Autofire Advantage on your STR would work just fine by me.

 

You're basically swinging your fists in rapid succession, or all at once, and one, some or all might contact the enemy.

 

It may also simulate the idea the best as it can be hard to make four arms go in exactly the same place (ie, an actively moving target) during combat.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

If you want really simple, like for a beginner like me, you might just want to make it a HA with the damage you think four punches would do. Wailing away with four arms would just become a special effect. You'd probably end up paying less END in the long run too.

[Metaphysician]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

If I did four armed punchs as a HA, I'd go with +2d6, following the doubled actual effect = +1 DC.

 

Another option is what Grond has: extra SPD that is used for extra punches.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

Correction on the autofire ... He stops when one misses...

 

First hit, Second miss, 3+ miss

First miss - all miss.

First hit, Second Hit, Third Hit, Fourth Miss, 5+ miss

and so on...

 

I think a Naked Autofire Advantage on your STR would work just fine by me.

 

You're basically swinging your fists in rapid succession, or all at once, and one, some or all might contact the enemy.

 

It may also simulate the idea the best as it can be hard to make four arms go in exactly the same place (ie, an actively moving target) during combat.

 

I would allow the Autofire approach, with the caveat that this is a 75 point attack power, as someone else has already noted. You may want to consider how much "bang for your buck" you'll get, though.

 

To summarize some of the issues, taking 3 shots will cost 18 END (STR 3 times). I'm not certain, but I believe use of the 15 points of Naked Autofire will cost a further 1 END. That's 19 END a shot. Assume you'll also move, and you're spending 20+ END per phase (unless you leap, I suppose). You likely have a lot of END, but that's a hefty END cost for anyone.

 

How many shots will typically land? If you roll just what you needed to hit, you hit once. Roll 2 less and you hit twice, and roll 4 less and all three blows land. How good is your OCV? Typically, Bricks don't have the greatest CV's in the game.

 

Assuming your target DCV matches your OCV, you'll roll 12+ and miss entirely 37.5% of the time, roll 10 or 11 and hit once 30% of the time, roll 8 or 9 and hit twice 21.3% of the time and roll 7- and hit all three times 16.2% of the time.

 

Of course, it's a naked advantage, so you don't have to spend extra END when you think your odds of hitting are poor, and can save it for situations when your chances are exceptional (ie large, slow opponents).

 

The other options discussed are all good. You could use the Sweep maneuver, and invest some of the 15 points you woould have spent on autofire to buy some penalty skill levels, offsetting the to hit penalties. You'll still spend 18 END for three attacks, but with 4 PSL's, you can have full OCV with all of them. You still have the problem that the first miss ends the sequence, plus your DCV's halved, but that's generally no biggie for a Brick. A sweep does take a full phase, so you can't bring all your arms to bear and move in the same phase. It has the advantage that you can attack multiple targets (eg. punch three agents), where autofire requires special skills to do so, and requires they be lined up with no hexes between them. Sweep can also be combined with other maneuvers, such as Grab, more easily. Sweep is an optional maneuver, and one many gamers don't like or use, so this one should for sure be discussed with your GM beforehand (mind you, so should all character abilities...)

 

The Hand Attack option is workable - +2d6 means you only roll to hit once, but add damage. It's an easy one. You could add activation to the HA dice to get a bit of variability defined as not all arms hitting.

 

Extra Speed to Punch is another option. Now you have full CV for all attacks, but can only use the extra punches if someone is in HTH range at your phase. You also have the option of including maneuvers like Sweep or Haymaker in your extra Speed's limitations. I woud expect this to be a -1 limitation (maybe more if maneuver choices are really limited) so +3 Speed would have the same cost as Autofire. It's also less END intensive, since you're adding 6 END oer bonus phase rather than 12+ END on each attack.

 

Finally, there's Hand Attack with Reduced Penetration. To really simulate the effect, you'd need to customize the limitation, since reduced Penetration as written only applies BOD separately against defenses, and you likely want to apply STUN as well. I don't think this approach will work as easily as the others.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

I wouldn't allow a Naked Autofire on STR for two reasons: I hate Naked Advantages and the cost will generally be too prohibitive (either too much AP or too little damage). If you don't feel the same way, there's nothing wrong with it.

 

You could still look at a few alternatives. The HA +2d6 ideas posted by Metaphysician is a really good one, and one I would probably use. I also like the idea of just using the Sweep maneuver to land more punches, and buying CLSs if you want him to be better at it (if you do this, buy 2 point CLSs specifically with Sweep, allowing you to sweep a number of different maneuvers, rather than just gaining a bonus or negating a penalty with a specific maneuver). If so go the Sweep route, Rapid Attack would be very useful, as would DCV Levels.

 

Speaking of DCV, you could always just buy something like +4 HTH Levels and define them as a Power "Four Arms." You can either use the arms to increase your OCV by throwing several punches, damage by landing several punches, or DCV by using your extra arms to block HTH attacks.

[Magmarock]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

Naked advantages aren't such a big deal. I just don't think they should be allowed in frameworks. Buy it straight out. Add Limitations if you want it cheaper.

 

Four arms: Whatever happened to buying a larger number of DCs and then buying Reduced Penetration to simulate a split attack? Two of these, linked together, would make for a quadruple punch that would work.

 

Just a suggestion.

 

Mags

[Dust Raven]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

I've never liked using Reduced Penetration to simulate a split attack. I agree it can be used as such, but I don't feel the mechanics actually simulate getting hit twice. It's more like getting hit harder, but a lowered ability to cause physical injury. After all, the STUN damage is never reduced versus DEF, only the BODY.

[Metaphysician]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

Yeah, Reduced Pen is more for stuff that just doesn't cut well.

 

As for Naked Advantages and Frameworks, only time I'd see them as really viable would be for Brick Tricks frameworks. Even then, they definitely should get a Skill Roll limit.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

I like Dust Raven's +4 HTH Levels.

 

The other way is to buy HTH Four-Weapon Fighting, which I guess is the same as buying HTH Two-Weapon Fighting twice.

[GamePhil]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

In general, I'd go with Rapid Attack: HTH and 6 Penalty Skill Levels for Sweeps, especially if DCV is not a concern.

[coach]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

I am very fond of the new Sweep rules. I agree with Phil, go with Rapid Attack and 6 PSLs. Cheap and gives you more flexibility. Read the Sweep rules, they give you lots of options. You could Sweep a grab, for example, if you purchased broad enough PSLs. Or all sorts of other stuff. Plus, it makes it easier to spread the attacks over a number of different targets.

 

My understanding of the Autofire is that this would turn it into a 75 AP attack, meaning it costs 7 END per shot, for a total of 21. Also, the way described only gives up to 3 shots, not 4.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

A bit of an aside, but related:

 

I use a house rule regarding Sweep (and Rapid Fire). I, personally, don't see why if one attack missed, all the following attacks should miss. This might be the case in some situations (if you are performing a sequence of events maneuver using different maneuvers that must all succeed), but certainly not for throwing a bunch of punches. So I allow a seperate attack roll for every attack attempted, even is a previous shot misses. If figure if you're gonna spend the END on all of them anyway, you are actually making the shots and they should all have a chance to hit or miss individually.

 

 

Saying that, I think using CLS with Sweep would be an excellent method for simulating punching with several fists (say, four or so).

 

I will point out one thing though. You can't use PSLs to counter the penalty from Sweep. Those penalties are inherant within the maneuver, and such penalties cannot be covered up with PSLs. Like any other maneuver with a penalty, you have to buy a full CSL to negate the penalty. It sucks, but it's fair.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

I will point out one thing though. You can't use PSLs to counter the penalty from Sweep. Those penalties are inherant within the maneuver' date=' and such penalties cannot be covered up with PSLs. Like any other maneuver with a penalty, you have to buy a full CSL to negate the penalty. It sucks, but it's fair.[/quote']I missed that one. . .where is it?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

I use a house rule regarding Sweep (and Rapid Fire).

 

Make Sweep and Rapid Fire more effective - we'll hear about that, I bet. But they all take the OCV penalty and you're right - they all cost END. Ironically, if these maneuvers are too effective, no one will use them, for fear of getting pasted with a retaliatory Rapid Fire while at 1/2 DCV...

 

Saying that, I think using CLS with Sweep would be an excellent method for simulating punching with several fists (say, four or so).

 

I will point out one thing though. You can't use PSLs to counter the penalty from Sweep. Those penalties are inherant within the maneuver, and such penalties cannot be covered up with PSLs. Like any other maneuver with a penalty, you have to buy a full CSL to negate the penalty. It sucks, but it's fair.

 

I missed that rule too. I question its reasonableness. A 2 point level with a -1/4 limitation would be 1.6 points, and a -1/2 limit would be 1.33 points. Why not 1.5 for a PSL? Yes, I know 5 point levels are the minimum for a limitation, but realistically, that's WHY we have PSL's.

 

What about making the PSL's with Punch, "only to offset sweep penalties"? The penalty isn't inherent in the Punch, but now you can't use it to Sweep another attack maneuver.

[Metaphysician]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

In a similar vein, I'm not that happy with the autofire rules. Missing one shot shouldn't make all the others miss, especially when you are spraying multiple people. In addition, you ought to be able to spend autofire shots on increasing your OCV, iow, spraying a single person to make it harder to dodge.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

The rule should be in the FAQ, but it might not be. I got it directly from Steve (though it was quite a while ago, so I don't remember if it was on the boards or through an email).

 

I questioned the heck out of it, and believe me, there was quite a bit if heck to question out. I quickly lost the debate due to a bit of logic on Steve's part.

 

The reduction in OCV from performing the Sweep Maneuver isn't actully a Penalty. At least not in the same way Rande Modifiers or Hit Location Modifiers are. It part of the maneuver, the same way the reduction of OCV is part of the Grab, Disarm, Move By/Through and such maneuvers. These maneuver can't be performed without the reduction in OCV (just like Sweep). You can't buy PSLs to counter the reduction in OCV from Grab or a Move By because there would be no difference in effect from buying a full CSL. It's the same with a Sweep.

 

Did any of that make sense?

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

Thanks, Dust Raven. It is in the FAQ.

 

From Combat Skill Levels:

 

"Q: Can a character buy 2-point Combat Skill Levels to improve his OCV with Rapid Fire (or Sweep), regardless of what power or maneuver he uses to perform the Rapid Fire (or Sweep)?

 

A: Yes."

 

From Penalty Skill Levels:

 

"Q: Could a character buy Penalty Skill Levels to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver, such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By?

 

A: No. If a character wants to buy PSLs with the attack, he has to define some form of negative OCV modifier they counteract — such as the Range Modifier or Hit Location modifiers. He cannot apply them to, for example, the -3 OCV with Grab By, the -v/5 penalty for Move Through, or the -2 per subsequent attack for Rapid Fire/Sweep. If he wants to counteract the OCV penalty associated with a Combat Maneuver, buy 2-point Combat Skill Levels."

 

However (also from Penalty Skill Levels):

 

"Q: Could a character buy PSLs to counteract the OCV penalty for using Autofire against multiple targets?

 

A: Buying Autofire PSLs to offset Autofire OCV modifiers would be possible, but a better approach is to buy Autofire Skills."

 

I don't see why PSLs are allowed vs. Autofire but not Rapid Fire/Sweep. I do see why PSLs aren't allowed vs. straight Maneuver OCV penalties - they're not more restrictive than a straight CSL. (Although I would allow PSLs vs. the -v/5 for a Move Through)

 

But Sweep PSLs are more limited. Consider: by the rules, I can buy four 2-pt. CSLs with Sweep for eight points. If I Sweep twice I'm at +2 OCV, if I Sweep thrice I'm even on OCV.

 

Now I want to be able to sweep twice or thrice at even OCV. How? Sounds like PSLs to me. Of course, I suppose I could purchase 5-pt. CSLs Only When Sweeping, Can't Exceed Normal OCV and jigger the Limitation levels to make it come out the same as a 1.5-pt. PSL. (shrug)

 

Personally, I'd allow PSLs with Sweep/Rapid fire in my games.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

That was one of my agruments, as I recall.

 

All you can do is to reason from effect. Can anyone really be just as good as hitting three people simultaneously as he is at hitting just one? Personally I can't see it, and when I think of it that way I think of Area Effect, not Sweep. It makes sense that if someone can hit a punch of people with his normal OCV, that he'll have better chances if he tries t punch fewer people.

[GamePhil]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

Well, I can see someone being just as good with a Sweep as a normal attack. For example, "You use different moves fighting half a dozen people than when you only have to...beware.....about..........one *."

 

However, the problem is that if I couldn't, I also couldn't see someone being just as good shooting half a dozen people with an Autofire Attack as they were with shooting one. This seems inconsistent. Still, you have to pay more for Autofire, so from a game balance perspective I can see it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

Well' date=' I can see someone being just as good with a Sweep as a normal attack. For example, "You use different moves fighting half a dozen people than when you only have to...beware.....about..........one *."[/quote']

I agree, but that would be to buy 2 point levels with Sweep, granting you that bonus when actually making more than one attack. At this point, you actually are better at fighting two or more opponents than you are at fighting just one (or rather, your aim improves if you throw more than one punch; you can throw all those strikes at the same guy).

 

However, the problem is that if I couldn't, I also couldn't see someone being just as good shooting half a dozen people with an Autofire Attack as they were with shooting one. This seems inconsistent. Still, you have to pay more for Autofire, so from a game balance perspective I can see it.

The difference between Sweep/Rapid Fire and Autofire is thus: Sweep/Rapid Fire is making several attacks in a single Phase, while Autofire is making a single attack that can potentially strike a target several times. Not too long ago I came up with a 5 point Autofire Skill that grants an attacker a +4 OCV bonus when attacking a single target with full Autofire (taking a Full Phase and reducing DCV by half). The idea was that you can use each round to "follow" the target, improving your aim. Alternatively, I can see some sort of pulse attack that simply hits a target so many times, and either hits with every shot or misses with every shot. In this case it wouldn't be related to a maneuver at all, but would be to be bought with a Power (really PSLs as a Power). With Sweep/Rapid Fire being actual maneuver rather than Powers, it just don't see PSLs working that way with them.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: 4 Arms and punching alot. What do you like?

 

That was one of my agruments' date=' as I recall.[/quote']Great minds think alike, eh?