Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

[Korvar]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Good points. Though I still wonder why non-mutant superheroes don't get the same flack as the mutants. The Avengers and the Fantastic Four do as much damage as the X-Men' date=' yet nobody calls for their heads on a platter.[/quote']

 

There are also terrorist groups of Mutants who do Bad Things in the name of "Mutantkind", which isn't going to endear anyone to them. Plus there's an oft-touted idea that Mutants represent the "next step in human evolution", with the implication that Mutants are going to do to "normal" humans what the Cro-Magnons did to the Neanderthals, with the further implication that this is "wipe them out".

[keithcurtis]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I totally agree, realistically, the government should be just as worried about other supers as mutants. In defense I can only offer two points.

 

1) Mutants are an easily identified and labeled group. To target the Avengers, we would have to have a broad platform against, mutants, aliens, androids, people too smart for their own good, and Norse-Storm-Hammer-Gods.

 

2) The X-Men stories are largely about persecution and bigotry, while Avengers stories are primarily about whuppin' bad guys.

 

Keith "Literary licensed to kill" Curtis

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I've been thinking about this issue for a long time, and I have more to say than what I'll say here:

 

So: orcs are evil. Orcs are evil because the Evil Overlord has enslaved them, mind, body, and soul, and makes them evil. After a long and arduous battle, the PCs defeat the Evil Overlord. This is the point at which most fantasy stories end, unfortunately IMO.

 

The strings are cut. For the first time in many generations (if not centuries or millenia), the orcs suddenly find themselves having free will. They are no longer supernaturally compelled to be evil. Now what happens? Do the automatically become good? I doubt it. They have no concept of what it means to be good. Is there some alternate supernatural force that will suddenly make them good, like a "Good Overlord"? That seems rather silly to me. I think this would be a great place to *start* a campaign, rather than end one. The orcs have to figure out who they are, and what their values are, and how to live their lives, and how to build their society. It ain't gonna be easy. There will be plenty of evil opportunists who will want to become in effect the next evil overlord. Some of these opportunists will be orcs, some will be of other races. "A struggling and confused leaderless horde? Now's my chance!" What will the PCs do? Can they teach goodness to the orcs? Do they want to after all they've been through? "How can you forgive these filthy orcs, after what they did to Rimorob?!" Can they prevent the rise of a new evil overlord?

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

What RPGs call "race" is actually species.

 

Halfelves and half-orcs are infertile, are they? That'll be news to Elrond and Elros.

 

I don't accept the notion of an "evil race" (i.e., an evil ethnic group) in reality, because I don't believe it's possible for humans to be inherently evil.

 

Neither do I. And that is why I am careful not to rehearse judging any people as being evil because of their birth, even in fiction.

[assault]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Halfelves and half-orcs are infertile' date=' are they? That'll be news to Elrond and Elros. [/quote']

 

In fact, of course, the situation is a "none of the above". We aren't dealing with scientifically defined species, obviously, but we aren't dealing with culturally defined "races" either.

 

It's entirely normal in fantasy literature and mythology for radically different groups to be interfertile. The whole demigod thing is the best example!

 

This isn't something that can be formally defined - "it just is".

 

As for Agemegos' political scruples - I think you are trying too hard. There is a difference between fantasy and reality.

 

I'm not going to give you my political resume, but I'm quite happy killing imaginary orcs, or playing with plastic panzers, and then going out and campaigning against racism and militarism. I've been doing it for decades, and I'm planning on keeping doing it for decades.

 

So, just - chill out.

[assault]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

The strings are cut. For the first time in many generations (if not centuries or millenia)' date=' the orcs suddenly find themselves having free will. They are no longer supernaturally compelled to be evil. Now what happens? Do the automatically become good? I doubt it. They have no concept of what it means to be good. Is there some alternate supernatural force that will suddenly make them good, like a "Good Overlord"? That seems rather silly to me. I think this would be a great place to *start* a campaign, rather than end one. The orcs have to figure out who they are, and what their values are, and how to live their lives, and how to build their society. [/quote']

 

Interesting.

 

Of course, usually when the Dark Lord falls, most of the Orcs get killed off in the catastrophe, but, yes, there would be survivors.

 

I guess they would do what they have always done - head for the hills and turn bandit.

 

The fall of the Dark Lord rarely sees the eradication of Evil as such - just its major focus. New threats usually arise.

 

So Orcs will usually find themselves either self-employed, or working for a new boss, rather than going into another business.

 

I doubt they would end up forming a distinct society of their own in any short period of time. In the long run they might, I suppose. In the short term they would probably be stuck with whatever band/clan form they kind of inherit. The toughest/smartest leads, with the aid of a clique of toadies and bullies.

 

Now, if we go with the idea that the original Orcs were corrupted Elves or whatever, that is, that they are fallen immortals, it is possible that one or two of them may be capable of repenting and being forgiven. But this is pretty much like vampires gaining souls - it can happen, but it's pretty rare.

 

There is one final conception of what Orcs are, and that is that they are just another bunch of humanoids, who happen to have fallen under the Dark Lord's power. That is, they are essentially just the same as the humans that worked for him. In that case, they could behave in exactly the same way as the latter.

 

This is the case where they could build a "Good" society.

[Jkeown]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I don't have evil races in Caleon... I never have. The very first Caleon game occured the afternoon I bought the first Fantasy Hero book back in June or July of 1986. Opened the darn thing, read about trolls. Saw they had a 10 INT.

 

"Huh! ...my Monster Manual says that Trolls are evil, and have "low intellegence." These FH Troll-guys are as smart as normal folks... they can decide for themselves."

 

That wasn't the exact thought process, but does serve to note the difference between AD&D 1st edition and HERO. That book sorta let me see that I could use the words "Good" and "Troll" in the same sentence. The original D&D material just said they were all Chaotic Evil and left it at that.... FH1 didn't say anything about behavior... just said they were big and ugly, so no players would come across the table at me barking "rules."

 

Glad I bought that book... yessir... I like it.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Why is it that no one ever mentions the "Native Americans" slaughtering each other or the Africans enslaving each other when they start talking about atrocities?

 

Good question, and very apposite.

 

Sometimes it may be because those atrocities are not relevant to the point at hand. For example, if I had asserted that Australians never commit atrocities, then it would be a relevant counter-argument to point out some of teh atrocious things some Australians have done to aborigines. Whether aborigines had or had not ever committed atrocities themselves would not be relevant in that case.

 

But far more often I think that this tendency you note is the result of the interaction of four pernicious fallacies. First, the fallacy of attributing credit or blame for the actions of any members of a group to all the members of that whole group. Second, the fallacy of considering that people are either wholly good or wholly evil, instead of recognising that most people, including most who are really pretty admirable on the whole, do some bad things. Third, the Manichaean fallacy that Good and Evil are two sides that are engaged in a war with each other. And fourth, the fallacy of confounding facts with value-judgements.

 

I think the fallacious reasoning in this case goes as follows: "If any American indians or African blacks had ever committed atrocities then those whole races would be evil. Fighting against evil people is good, so the US would have been fighting the Good Fight in the Indian Wars. However, my whole point is that the US was committing an atrocity in the Indian Wars. The American indian atrocities therefore contradict my conclusion, and so they must be false. Or at least I ought to suppress them."

 

I am glad that you challenged this fallacious and racist reasoning, because I fear that the reason methods that people rehearse in arguments about history on teh INterNet they go on to apply in making political (eg. voting) decisions.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

There is a difference between fantasy and reality.

 

Indeed. I would never doubt it. But when I read through Marcus Aurelius' Meditations and take stock of the things and people who have influenced me, I become acutely aware that many of my heroes, the people on whom I attempt to model my behaviour, are fictional characters. I suspect that the role of the taste for fiction that exists in the human psyche is to enable us to adopt and transmit cultural norms through story-telling.

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Phil,

 

I'd actually been doing a lot of thinking about running a campaign along the lines of what you'd described as an analogy of the genocide in Rwanda in 1994. In that year, the Hutu govt. organized a propaganda campaign against the minority Tutsi population, trying to convince Hutu Rwandans that the Tutsis were planning to massacre them. While this was completely invented, there was a background to it. The Tutsis were a majority in neighboring Burundi and had orchestrated past massacres of Hutus in Burundi. The Hutu Rwanda

govt. whipped the population into a frenzy of fear and then forced them to massacre 800,000 Tutsi Rwandans in an attempt to ethnically cleanse the entire country.

 

I'd thought, what if orcs were still around after the fall of the dark lord. They are no longer magically compelled to do evil, but they have not been allowed to integrate into society because of their past reputation. The PCs could live in a city with a minority orc population who are forced to live in slums and do all the shit work for the non-orc population. Then the govt. of the city decides to "do something about this orc problem once and for all." The PCs have to take sides.

 

Having thought about this, I think it would be important to have the PCs and the non-orc populace ambivalently motivated. The orcs, like any group of people allotted the worst place in society, would be violent and given to crime. Orcs would still be ugly and socially unpleasant by human standards. And most every non-orc member of the society would have lost grandrelatives to the orcs under the Dark Lord. They would still rehearse the tales of the evil orcs. The PCs, perhaps playing town constables, would be put in a position of having to deal with the orcs and they would come to see that the orcs are indeed individuals. Some are more intelligent and personable than others. The orcs would attempt to organize themselves and express their legitmate grievances to the city govt.

 

This is all still in the planning stages, but I think this idea has a great deal of potential as a way of exploring contemporary social issues through the lens of fantasy. I also think it could be done in a way that the GM would not be moralizing to his players.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Halfelves and half-orcs are infertile' date=' are they? That'll be news to Elrond and Elros.[/quote']

Just a side note: Even though the original intent of the definition of the word "species" was to denote the inability to cross-breed with another species, it turns out to be much more arbitrary than that. First, scientists said that a species cannot produce offspring with another species. When animals of two different species were place together and cross-breeds started to appear, they were faced with a choice: Either revamp their whole taxonomic system which they'd been using for a long time, or change the definition of species. They chose the latter, and the new definition meant instead that two different species cannot produce an offspring that can reproduce. And once again, reality showed that what they were calling species could produce fertile offspring. Most scientists today acknowledge that the line between one species and another is fairly arbitrary. A and B are very similar, but they are called separate species, while C and D are very similar, but are called separate sub-species. Most of the classifications are based more on historical labels than on reproductive ability. After all, few cross-breeds occur in nature without some human intervention, and not all combinations have been tested. If you put dog sperm into a female cat, I don't think you'll get a dog-cat crossbreed, but you can cross a dog with a coyote. I don't know if anyone has ever tried putting human sperm into a female gorilla, and I hope they haven't.

[Agemegos]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Just a side note: Even though the original intent of the definition of the word "species" was to denote the inability to cross-breed with another species' date=' it turns out to be much more arbitrary than that.[/quote']

 

Indeed. The distinction between races and species is arbitrary and semantic. That doesn't argue that the supposition that orcs, elves, and humans are of different species rather than different races is a secure footing for any argument,

 

I don't know if anyone has ever tried putting human sperm into a female gorilla, and I hope they haven't.

 

I would expect that the first step would be to perform an in vitro fertilisation using a gorilla ovum and human semen and vice-versa, and to allow the zygotes to develop into eight-cell embryos before destroying them. Only if that seemed promising would anyone try allowing the hybrids to develop to term. And when they did the choice of host-mother would be tricky. Really you'd think that a human womb would be a better choice than a gorilla one, to avoid likely obstetric difficulties. So expect gorilla sperm to be put into some sort of political prisoner or member of a hated ethic minority, before human sperm is put into a female gorilla. And by the way, chimpanzees or bonobos would seem like a better choice than gorillas.

 

You may be interested inthe SF novel Orphans of Creation, by Roger MacBride Allen. This has as its premise the discovery of an unsuccessful attempt inthe Antebellum South of the US to use Australopithecines as a morally-acceptable substitute for human slaves.

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

On the species topic, it's true there is a good deal of bleed between close species. Darwin himself said that there would be no distinct point in time when one species evolves into another. The idea of species is an intellectual construct that zoologists placed upon nature in the 18th C. to make it more comprehensible. Unfortunately, it's become so widely accepted that many people now mistake the concept for reality. I think the biggest challenge to the concept of species is that the largest percentage of the Earth's biomass is comprised of asexual microbes. Microbes are classified as species too. But since they (mostly) reproduce by splitting in two, that puts them outside the definition of species.

[Capt JT Kohonez]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Thank you for the sanity.

 

Oh bullshit. This is the same unprovable rhetoric that says heavy metal lyrics cause suicide, Christianity causes abortion clinic bombings, and D&D causes satan-worship.

 

No one is going to become a racist because of how the fictional migdilar are "treated". Such people who are inclined to racist behavior will be racist regardless of whether there's a race of bad guys in a roleplaying game because they are already badly wired (if you'll excuse the analogy), not because of the input from a roleplaying game.

[Markdoc]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

>>> I would expect that the first step would be to perform an in vitro fertilisation using a gorilla ovum and human semen and vice-versa, and to allow the zygotes to develop into eight-cell embryos before destroying them. Only if that seemed promising would anyone try allowing the hybrids to develop to term. And when they did the choice of host-mother would be tricky. Really you'd think that a human womb would be a better choice than a gorilla one, to avoid likely obstetric difficulties. So expect gorilla sperm to be put into some sort of political prisoner or member of a hated ethic minority, before human sperm is put into a female gorilla. And by the way, chimpanzees or bonobos would seem like a better choice than gorillas.<<<

 

Even chimps are far enough removed from humans that there is essentially no chance of a viable cross-fertilzation.

 

cheers, Mark

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

I'd thought, what if orcs were still around after the fall of the dark lord. They are no longer magically compelled to do evil, but they have not been allowed to integrate into society because of their past reputation. The PCs could live in a city with a minority orc population who are forced to live in slums and do all the shit work for the non-orc population. Then the govt. of the city decides to "do something about this orc problem once and for all." The PCs have to take sides.

 

This sounds like a really good idea to use as a feature for a campaign world, if not the main theme for a campaign. I'd be interested in hearing how it plays out.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

A thought, in re: cyst13's freed orcs idea --

 

"Okay, I realize that you lost family in the War of the Darklord. Did you ever think that I might have lost family as well? And don't go giving me 'divine retribution' as your reason for forcing me to live this way. Where were your gods when WE cried out against the powers of darkness?"

 

Another thought...if the campaign takes place generations after the war, many longer lived races would have members who took part in the fighting. Their biased views would likely color society's views as a whole. Perhaps orcs should have a way of showing that their side wasn't the only one capable of atrocity...maybe orcs inherit some portion of their ancestors' memories, and can "remember" what great-great-grandma saw at the Sack of Fort Blood before she escaped the dwarven suicide berserks. The characters would have their work cut out for them in reconciling these centuries old and very personal grudges....

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

It wasn't cyst13's idea, it was mine.

 

I don't know how many people know this, but I had heard that the original plan for the Star Wars movies was for there to be nine of them. They start in the middle (which is a classical literary technique which I always forget the name of), showing the defeat of the empire, then go back and show how the empire came to power, then go forward and show the rebuilding of society/the building of a better society. Now the last trilogy has apparently been cancelled. I think that's a shame. I think it could be a very interesting story to answer the question, "You've defeated the bad guys, now what?"

 

Just about every country in the world has been under some form of oppression at some point in its history. And many have thrown off their oppressors. All these countries have some form of an Independence Day. Mexico has three of them, IIRC. But to me, the far more important question is what kind of a society did they build once they were independent? It's sort of like moving out of your parents' house - it's a great day to celebrate your freedom, but you haven't yet accomplished anything significant with your life.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

To get back to the topic: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept? Well, yes, but only in a tautological sense. Let's put orcs aside for a minute. What about demons? They are actually, inherently, and essentially EVIL! Evil is their whole raison d'etre. Is it racist to say that demons are evil? I guess is could be racist, but it's also true! In the real world, racism is a despicable belief, because it isn't true. You can't even draw a real racial correlation with good and evil. But you may be perfectly correct and justified to say that the vast majority of orcs are evil, because they live in evil societies that encourage them to be evil, and place no value on being good. Evil is a real thing, not just an arbitrary label. We call orcs evil, not because they're ugly or smelly, or they eat food that we thing is yucky, or their language sounds harsh to our ears. We call them evil, because they do evil. They kill for fun. They practice human sacrifice and cannibalism. Violence is the preferred method of solving disputes. If you don't appear stronger than them, they'll attack. It you try to reason or negotiate with them, they'll be happy to kill you. That's why they're evil.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Sorry - completely off topic - please ignore but I was interested...

 

Microbes are classified as species too. But since they (mostly) reproduce by splitting in two' date=' that puts them outside the definition of species.[/quote']

 

Hmmm. Now I'm with you about the species thing. It is a classification thing to make things easier to comprehend and to allow useful generic statements to be made. There is something to be said for it though as many groupings are unable to sexually reproduce across groupings.

 

However, I don't htink that asexual reproduction puts a species outside of the definition of species. I know of lots of bacteria and other microbes that have both genus and species names suggesting that they do in fact belong to species categories...

 

 

Doc

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Phil,

 

This is a VERY long thread and I don't blame anyone coming to it now for not reading all the posts. As a heads-up, though, the argument made a subtle shift of emphasis about page five or six. I acknowledged that it is possible to create a game world in which it is valid to view entire categories of being as evil (e.g. demons, orcs, etc). The question then changed to "Does pretending that entire classes of intelligent beings can be evil encourage racist beliefs in real life?" If you're interested in the arguments for yes on that question, I recommend starting at about page five and reading the posts of myself and Agemegos. Almost everyone else answered no, in one way or another.

 

Doc Democracy,

 

You're right. All known microbes are classified as genus and species. There really isn't much alternative available now. The question, though, is if you define species as a group of organisms that are able to interbreed and produce fertile offspring, how does this apply to single celled organisms? They don't interbreed and fertility has little to no relevance to them.

 

There is a huge range in physical characteristics among domestic dog breeds. If you didn't know better, you might assume a chihuahua to be a different species than a St. Bernard, judging by looks. But since you can cross the two animals and produce fertile offspring, that qualifies them as belonging to the same species. You can't do this with asexual microbes.

 

Doing DNA testing is slippery also. Little known fact: many microbes can actually establish a tube from one microbe to another and transfer as much as 20% of their genetic material from one organism to the other. This just shows how difficult it is to really nail down microbes into categories. Which, I believe, is intrinisic to the mecurial nature of microbes themselves. They adapt fiendishly fast. Come up with a drug to kill them and a few years later they're all resistant. Are the resistant bacteria now a new species? Who knows?

 

If you're really interested in this topic, the scientist who first opened my eyes to this conundrum was the biologist Lynn Margulis. She has a number of widely available and accessible popular science books that address issues of microbial lilfe.

 

Also, I appreciate your enthusiasm for and contributions to the "orcs after the fall of the Dark Lord" idea. (I hesitate to claim it as my own for fear of further offending Phil) I probably won't be able to work on that campaign for a year or so. But it is something I've been thinking about in my spare time ever since the Rwandan genocide. I would definitely need the right players, though. One guy stuck in hack-n-slash mode could ruin the entire campaign.

[cyst13]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

The last paragraph of the above post is directed to Captain Obvious. Thanx Cpt.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

Hey, no problem. I just had some juices flowing, and needed an outlet.

 

And, BTW, sorry for not giving you proper credit, Phil...

[arcady]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

People who've seen my posts in past years know I feel very much that 'evil races' are an inheritantly racist concept.

 

Some time back I took a look at typical gaming fantasy and found in it strong parallels to the American West.

 

Orcs are often described in the same way American Indians were often described. - dirty brutal warlike savages that kill for no reason, lack intelligence or grace, cannot be tamed, worship dark forces, and 'savage' women.

 

Today we don't think of them way, but that -is- the language once used for them.

 

Similar lines can be drawn out in other areas - right down to the idea of large tracts of unsettled wilderness.

 

When I first saw that, back in the late 80s, I tried to make a setting that flipped it and showed it from the Orc POV, but with the humans, elves, and so on still thinking the same way they did in 'gamer fantasy'.

 

Today I avoid making any race inherritantly good or evil. The noble savage is as much of a racist stereotype as the savage savage - and I don't need either in my fiction to make it complete.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Is "evil race" an intrinsically rascist concept?

 

This is a VERY long thread and I don't blame anyone coming to it now for not reading all the posts. As a heads-up' date=' though, the argument made a subtle shift of emphasis about page five or six. I acknowledged that it is possible to create a game world in which it is valid to view entire categories of being as evil (e.g. demons, orcs, etc). The question then changed to "Does pretending that entire classes of intelligent beings can be evil encourage racist beliefs in real life?"[/quote']

Yes, I know. I was getting to that. I've just today finished reading the entire thread ( ).

 

I am also firmly in the "no" camp. Fighting evil orcs, demons, or migdalars doesn't make me believe that real-world "races" or ethnic groups are inherently evil, any more than playing a wizard makes me believe that magic works in the real world. I don't believe in astrology or numerology or in earth/air/fire/water as the elements even though I incorporate those things in my games.

 

But at least a few points are getting lost here:

 

1) Racism is not inherently a bad thing. It is bad in the real world because it is false - the idea that certain races/ethnicities are of less human worth or lower character. If there really was a race in the real world that was evil, would it be racist to say so? Sort of, but that wouldn't be a bad thing because it would be true.

 

2) I think Agamegos and others are pointing to the wrong thing when they talk about the "rehearsed behaviors." I've never rehearsed racism in a game and I don't know of anyone who has. When I fight orcs, I'm not thinking, "Damned orcs, kill 'em all! They're inherently evil!" I'm thinking, "These are the orcs that have been ravaging local villages, so I'll put a stop to their evil," or "Uh-oh. Orcs are charging at me with weapons drawn. I'd better defend myself." The behavior I'm rehearsing is fighting against evil, i.e., being a hero. Even if I'm thinking unheroically, "These orcs stand between me and the treasure," that still isn't racist.

 

If orcs were the only source of evil in the world - the PC's never encounter evil humans like Saruman or Wormtongue or the Haradrim - then it might be racist. But I've never heard of a game where that was the case, nor have I ever read a fantasy book where that was the case.

 

Are you speaking for yourself? Do any of you (cyst13, Agamegos, et al.) feel yourself becoming racist when playing in such RPGs? Do you fear it is making you racist? I don't, and I know that in fact, it isn't. If you do, I'd say that's your personal problem, and I would appreciate it if you didn't assume that the rest of us share that problem.

 

Also, I appreciate your enthusiasm for and contributions to the "orcs after the fall of the Dark Lord" idea. (I hesitate to claim it as my own for fear of further offending Phil)

Oh, come on. I'm not offended. I just wanted my props. Often, when I see a good guys vs. bad guys movie, I often wonder about the surrounding events: How did the bad guys come to power? How will the good guys get things back to normal now that the bad guys have been defeated? But that's a little off-topic.