Question about mind control and enrage

[Wolven]

This past sunday my gaming group was messing around with some new characters and my brick ran into a guy who had mind control. My brick was enraged and was trying to pummel the focus of his enrage into ground meat. The person with mind control made his attack roll against me, and beat my ego by about 2x. Since my character is enraged, would that have any effect on the result? My brick goes enraged if he is attacked on a 14-. The mind control took place about the third phase of being enraged. My main power relies on me being enraged (kind of a hulk like thing). The result of the mind control was something along the lines of, target would do things he normaly wouldnt mind doing. I thought that since I was enraged and all my furry was focusing down on this one guy that I would mind changing targets. They just said that I am now enraged at my new target and I dont even remember the first guy. What do you all think? Hopefully this all makes sense.

 

Thanks in advance.

[JJR]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

There are a lot of circumstances involved here but I would never allow a disadvantage to work toward the character's favor. In this case the favor was you not changing targets as the mind control dictated. The disadvantage needs to be disadvantageous to the character, it should never help him achieve a person agenda.

[Blue]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

Hmm. Somewhat tough to judge. The basic rule of disadvantages is that they should not be helpful to a character. On the other hand, I'd tend to think that the Mind Control might give you an automatic recovery roll if the instruction was for you to stop or calm down.

 

So I'd say that the Mind Control might influence the Enraged, but the Enraged would have no effect on the mind contro except to make the effects worse (Like if he wanted you to be angry and you were already enraged, it would be easier for them to get that desired effect)

[JmOz]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

I would allow the MC to change the target as long as the target was still an enemy...

[Magmarock]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

Shifting the focus of a target's rage is not a bad tactic/use for Mind Control.

 

Disads should not benefit a PC, but in some cases they might make a difference, just not in the way the Player might want. In this case, Wolven's brick goes enraged if he is attacked. That sounds pretty general to me. While Enraged implies some measure of control over who you are pounding, as opposed to Berserk when you might pound on your friends, you still are attacking mindlessly. Mind Control can force an Enraged PC to attack a different target and this is reasonable in game terms.

 

Ths may suck for the brick's Player, but it is the nature of the game. Every character should have a weakness. Bricks tend to get manipulated easier.

 

Here are some suggestions to counter such possibilities:

 

Give your brick an extremely limited form of Mental Def- usable only when the PC is Enraged. Define it as the PC's rage blocks out any attempt at mental control from any source. Make it even cheaper by having it not work vs. Ego Attacks.

 

Or, if your GM won't allow your PC to buy Mental Def, then give your Brick additional EGO, only for when your PC is Enraged. Not Mental Def, but it still makes it harder for a Mentalist to overcome.

 

Alternatively, you can buy levels to ECV for the purpose of fighting off any mental attacks at the source... if it can't get through, then it can't affect you! Remember to make it cheaper by having it only when your PC is Enraged.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Mags

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

I agree with Magmarock's approach to the issue. I would say that "wouldn't mind doing" would be sufficient to cause the character to change targets if the character wasn't Enraged with the first target because of something specific to him or her, and the second target would fall within the circumstances that would Enrage your character.

 

As an aside, according to the 4E Ultimate Mentalist (p. 44), a Mind Control roll of EGO +10 would be sufficient to automatically calm down an Enraged or Berserk character. Of course, if the trigger of the Enraged is still around he may still go off again later.

[Wolven]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

thanks for the quick responces. The disad was working against me. The new characters are a group of villians. Our objective was to kidnap some famous person. My brick was suppose to grab her and take her to our meeting place. Well after her body guard attacked my character I went enraged and started fighting him. I was just curious if since I was enraged if it would be harder for the mind control to cause me to switch targets. Since I was enraged at this guy switching targets would be something I would not want to do. As a player I had no problem with switching targets.. One hero to smash is the same as another hero to smash. I took a few things out of the ultimate brick as my powers, one of them is called Rage Enhanced STR... or something along those lines. Basically my STR increases every phase I am enraged. Yes my main power is the rage enchanced STR, but I am not doing what I was hired to do. So my disad was working against me. I would have prefered to grab the girl and superleap out of there.

 

I like the sound of Mental Def that only works when enraged. hmmm I will have to keep that in mind.

 

Thanks again!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

First off, disadvantages can already make Mind Control easier or harder - something against a Total Psych Lim makes a command something the character is deeply against doing, and no amount of Mind Control can make an illiterate character read, say, a Summoning spell. Enraged and Berserk are no different.

 

In this specific case, however, I'm inclined to believe the Enraged doesn't change a lot. It's a matter of interpretation whether the one person, or the villain group, attacked you. As well, Enraged tends to be pretty obvious, and Mentalists tend to be pretty smart. "Attack him instead" may well be less effective than "Hey, he just took a shot at you - are you going to let him get away with that?" Given you're already enraged and want to hurt something/someone, I don't see getting you to change your target as all that difficult - "wouldn't mind" for someone the character considers anything below a friend would do it for me. I also find it hard to consider anyone enraged would be "violently opposed" to attacking virtually anyone or anything.

[Kirby]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

I would definitely say the mind control would work against your brick. Under Enraged, FREd says, "A character with this Disadvantage tends to become extremely angry and lose control of himself when confronted by certain situations or stimuli. When a character is Enraged, he mindlessly attacks.... He attacks with no regard for...[self, team, others]." (p.217)

 

Well after her body guard attacked my character I went enraged and started fighting him. ... Since I was enraged at this guy switching targets would be something I would not want to do. ...but I am not doing what I was hired to do. So my disad was working against me. I would have prefered to grab the girl and superleap out of there.

It wouldn't be a Disadvantage if it worked out your way.

Depending on how the Mind Control worked, would -in my opinion- determine how long it affected you. If the Mind Control was "attack Johnny, he hit you," I'd say your enraged would still be strong and your brick wouldn't know the difference. If the Mind Control was "attack your buddy," then as soon as your next phase came around, you could start making rolls to recover from the Enraged, since you were no longer focused on it. However, if your buddy attacked you, then your enrage would have a focus....

 

The only way to "counter" something like this, would be if you bought a Psychological Limitation along the lines of "code of the mercenary" or "intent on completing mission." Though, this would run counterproductive to your Engraged and you might be coming out of them sooner than you liked.

 

On a side, I think it's safe to admit you bought the Disadvantage as a way to save points on a power (STR & defenses "only when enraged," right?). Now it's come to bite you. Maybe you can save some XP and buy Mental Defense, with Limitations such as "only when enraged" (-1/4) and "only versus Mind Control (-1/4 to -1, depending on GM)."

 

As an aside, if I were the GM, I would definitely exploit this Disadvantage and fast, since, for the most part, it is an actual advantage to your character (or seems to be to me). One day you're about to perform a mission when a bully bumps in to you. He shoves you and says something rude. Enraged may just go off, since you're being attacked. Maybe a teenage girl starts cussing at you: verbal abuse. Maybe you're in a bar where two people are in a heated argument. Person A throws a beer bottle at person B, but misses and hits your character. With an Enraged of 14- for being attacked, your character has to be hot tempered. A brick versus a normal with only 2-8 PD isn't going to last a turn. Even though you're a villain, you'd now be a murderer (or attempted murderer in their eyes) and have even more heroes after you. But that's just me. (Or is it?

 

As another aside, I once had a PC hero (Golden Age) who was part of the Greek Pantheon named Orion. He was a flying brick, and a darn good one, for 250 points that included the Greek package requirement. Anyway, he had an Enraged when innocents were threatened but a Beserk when innocents were hurt. Well, there was this one time when the bad guys hurt an innocent by shooting her. My character went Beserk (recovery 8-) and trashed the bad guys. Still no recovery. Then I started attacking those weird chariots that were screaming, aka police cars. One of my teammates tried to stun me with a sleeping drug. It hit, but didn't penetrate, so I went after him and the vehicle he was in. He was smart enough to get out of there a.s.a.p. and take his girlfriend -another teammate- out of there. Unfortunately, this girlfriend was a doctor and a semi-mentalist. While I was trashing the vehicle, she came up and used her mental powers to try and calm me down. Not being the wisest, she hit me with an Ego blast. Unfortunately for her, I had Mental Defense (about 10 points or so) *and* Mental Awareness. She became my next target and left with a broken arm, if I recall correctly.

 

So, after a trashed group of gangsters, two destroyed police cars, one damaged hero vehicle, two beat up teammates (one w/a broken arm), one ally (not alley) cat knocked into the next neighborhood, my character was ko'd by a powerful mystic who hit me with gas attacks. Then I started buying off that Beserk the very next time we received XP. Part of it was because of the GM's evil laughter when we once discovered a flaw the villains could use (quick, shoot the hostage and everyone fall down!).

[Acroyear]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

Well...

 

Wouldn't the mind control constitute an attack? Yes it would... your enraged disads will be very easily manipulated as you make an enraged check with each new attack. You're going to be "forgetting" the first target... and the second target... and the third target... as long as people keep attacking you. A couple ranged attackers might be able to render you useless as they play ping pong with you, forcing you to run back and forth, never reaching a target before you freak out and try to chase the other guy. Being in an enraged state does not necessairly make you immune to further enraged states, it may simply give you more enraged targets (also, changing targets is something you'd do, anyway, if your primary target is unaccessible).

 

However, depending on the chosen target, etc, if ONLY using the 5th info, I might simply apply the +5 penalty to the controller for giving a "contradictory" command (against the enraged) along with whatever control level was needed to make you go after the target (easy if an opponent, hard if a friend, etc). If you haven't yet recovered when the mind control wears off, you will resume the most recent enraged target (and on down the line until the enrageds all recover). I'm evil that way, though.

 

Disadvantages DO sometimes play into a character's favor, contrary to what many say. There's really nothing wrong with that - making someone more resistant to murdering someone because they have a code vs killing, for example, or saving you from being ambushed in your sleep thanks to a secret identity, protecting you from a flash or images attack thanks to blindness, or immunity to a mind controller with verbal commands if you're deaf.

 

Due to the mindless nature of an enraged, I'd only apply that +5 modifier, myself. YMMV

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

Due to the mindless nature of an enraged' date=' I'd only apply that +5 modifier, myself. YMMV[/quote']

 

I forgot the +5 modifier...that's the best solution.

 

And I would consider it avoided if the contrroller manages to insert some reference to the desired new target also meeting the conditions of your Enraged (pretty easy for "only when attacked").

 

To the other comments, above, I agree that the character tok the Enraged,. and limited his powers so he'd be reliant on being enraged virtually all the time. No question the Enraged could and should be used against him, especially by intelligent opponents.

 

Look at how the "Savage Hulk"'s limitations have been known and manipulated for years...

[SirViss]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

For me, I think the way to take advantage of a characters flaws should fall to the opponent. Mind Control on an Enraged character hell-bent on committing bodily harm to you should be hard. The character is "out-of-control". What makes him think that giving a simple order (with the help of Mind Control) is going to get him to control himself enough to attack someone else. Dropping him out of his rage (as Lord Liaden suggested) would be enough of a disad, because he would have to start building his strength all over again.

 

The way I see it, Mind Control wouldn't be best power to take advantage of Enraged. Mental Images would be. You make him believe that someone else attacked him. Watch the chaos that ensues.

 

If you want to use Mind Control to take advantage of Enrage I wouldn't use it on the Raging charater. I would use it on some other (innocent) bystander, and make HIM launch a real attack at the Enraged character. Heck, concidering that the character is usually (mostly) out of control, some of his teammates might "want" to restrain him, making it easy(er) to get away with this ploy.

[Magmarock]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

If you want to use Mind Control to take advantage of Enrage I wouldn't use it on the Raging charater. I would use it on some other (innocent) bystander' date=' and make HIM launch a real attack at the Enraged character. [/quote']

 

This is extremely clever. Thanks for the idea.

 

 

Mags

[SirViss]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

This is extremely clever. Thanks for the idea.

 

 

Mags

 

No prob. I'll probably use it myself.

[Wolven]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

Thanks for all the input everyone. I am looking forward to playing the character again in a few weeks. I had to change a few things on him to make him a bit more playable. Before I had no Knockback Resistance and the other brick kept knocking me back, and since I was enraged I couldnt hold and wait for him to run up to me. I kept running back to him. I tried chucking a few normals at him, but I kept missing.

 

My character is not to hard to fool. He has a 7 INT and only a 10 EGO. His enrage is 14- 11- recovery. He has a few other disads that help Ments manipulate him. Psych disad: likes to cause pain and destruction, and another one: Likes to fight. One of the other players noted that I am not much help in the kidnapping part, but I am very good at causing a distraction. And one of the others stated "Oh goody you get to be on our team." said sarcastically.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

Thanks for all the input everyone. I am looking forward to playing the character again in a few weeks. I had to change a few things on him to make him a bit more playable. Before I had no Knockback Resistance and the other brick kept knocking me back' date=' and since I was enraged I couldnt hold and wait for him to run up to me. I kept running back to him. I tried chucking a few normals at him, but I kept missing. [/quote']

 

koff*movethorugh*koff

[Kirby]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

My character is not [too] hard to fool. He has a 7 INT and only a 10 EGO. His enrage is 14- 11- recovery. He has a few other disads that help Ments manipulate him. Psych disad: likes to cause pain and destruction' date=' and another one: Likes to fight. One of the other players noted that I am not much help in the kidnapping part, but I am very good at causing a distraction. And one of the others stated "Oh goody you get to be on our team." said sarcastically.[/quote']

Heh, your character is a mentalists dream come true. Better hope you don't come up against a rival villain team with a mentalist. PSI, anyone?

[Kirby]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

koff*movethorugh*koff

Heh, who knows? If he missed by throwing the normals, his movethrough might miss, though I'm sure he'd hit a building.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about mind control and enrage

 

Heh' date=' who knows? If he missed by throwing the normals, his movethrough might miss, though I'm sure he'd hit a building. [/quote']

 

If he's enraged, and can't get to his target AND attack, I would probably rule he MUST attempt a move through. While enraged, attacking is his only real goal.