Spiderman Vs. Firelord

[BlackSword]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

So one more question about Bats... how many points to build him .... (Whats your gut instinct on these?)

Don't have a good feel on total points. But current Bats is the poster child for skills as powers. His stealth would use not just invisibility, but also teleportation for his 'appear out of nowhere to talk to Gordon' trick. Deduction borders on precognition. His skills go beyond what really fits on the scale, as only a few supers such as Superman or Martian Manhunter can counter-act his training.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

And if Bruce gets technological foci -- such as active noise cancellation technology to cancel out the sounds of his heartbeat and breathing -- even Superman is left going "Dammit, where the hell did he GO?!?"

 

(Throw in his mind-shieldling foci, and so is J'onn.)

 

Edit -- that's not speculation. That's already been done.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> No, because Bat God generally equals many supervillains acting quite

> stupid, despite whatever actual mental faculties they might have. The

> White Martians for example, would've just figured out where Batman was

> hiding telepathically then torn him apart before he could do anything.

 

In the event mentioned, they found him quite rapidly enough anyway.

 

"Batman? I know you're here, Batman. I can smell your pheromones. I can see through walls. Don't waste our time." -- A-Mortal, in JLA #3

 

And remember, this was before they knew him as anything other than a normal human. They were not afraid of him. At that time, they had absolutely no reason to be. I mean, *WE* know he's Batman, but *they* only knew that he was one more weak, helpless talking monkey on a planet full of six billion of 'em.

 

And they didn't know that Batman had already found out they were Martians. Remember, they were in disguise.

 

"Batman? Don't be ridiculous. What can a pathetic, fragile creature like Batman do to us?" -- Protex, JLA #3

 

Remember, we're talking about beings that can slugfest Superman here. They're not going to be worried about going up against a normal human being unless they *KNOW* he's got a flamethrower(*)... which they didn't, at that time.

 

And you might remember that the *second* time the Pale Martians fought Batman, they stood way the heck back, used their blaster vision, and pounded his ass flat in less than 30 seconds. They had *learned* from their prior error.

 

They were not, contrary to your claims, stupid.

 

Edit -- and there is a difference between 'not using their brains' and 'not acting with prophetic foreknowledge that could only have come from the other side of the fourth wall'.

 

 

 

(*) I mean, when was the last time we saw Superman take any real precautions vs. a normal human opponent, unless he *KNEW* the guy had a pocket full of Kryptonite? And Supes isn't stupid either. He's just able to walk through nukes and toss mountains, and as such generally doesn't waste too many synapses worrying about kung-fu guys in funky costumes.

Yeah, and Martain Manhunter's weakness to fire has been explained as Psychosematic, How would the White Martians have it? They never saw Mars Burn. It is carries as much weight as Aquaman speaking to the fish portion of the Martian's Brain. It is stupid.

 

Batman in the JLA survives because the writers thing he's cool. None of his actions make any particular sense to me.

 

Batman out Dirty Deals Lex Luthor? RIGHT...

 

Batman basically is still alive because every villain the JLA faces simply assumes he's a weak human. He is the most underestimated hero of all time. ergo DC villains are morons.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Yeah, and Martain Manhunter's weakness to fire has been explained as

> Psychosematic, [snip]

 

Errr, that was about two retcons ago. And J'onn himself didn't know the full story for quite some time.

 

The weakness is actually something genetically engineered into the Martian genome by the Guardians of the Universe way back in prehistoric days, so as to help keep the Martians from becoming so powerful that they'd overrun all of known space.

 

As for Aquaman and his telepathic powers, the end of PAD's AQUAMAN run revealed that, well, Orin's psionic powers are much greater than was commonly believed for the longest time.

 

[snip]

> Batman out Dirty Deals Lex Luthor? RIGHT...

 

And why is this so massively unbelievable? It's not like he's Victor Von Doom... highly capable, yes. Unbeatable, most definitely *not*.

 

Lex Luthor is highly intelligent, yes, but fug, Superman ain't dead *YET*, is he? And not just because Clark is so brawny, either, but because he actually can figure out at least *some* of Luthor's schemes unaided.

 

Anybody who can be forced to a draw in a battle of wits with Superman is somebody who, if he plays with Batman, is gonna get checkmated hard. Clark will be the first one to admit that Bruce is much smarter than he is.

 

(And no, Kryptonian Super-Intelligence is no longer in the picture, 'cause that's one of the first things Byrne got rid of and ain't nobody got it back yet.)

[Metaphysician]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Actually, I'd peg Ult Cap as being higher reflexes than Cap, though probably not at the Spider-man level. OTOH, thats partly a "gut feeling" assessment, so YMMV.

[proditor]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

I think it is a hard call on the reflexes for Mainstream vs. Ultimate Cap. Mainstream cap is scary in the agility reflexes department, sometimes throwing his shield at the start of a hail of gunfire, dancing through it all, recovering the shild at the end after it took out all the fguunmen on one side, and then having it back in place for the one guy left in front of him with a shotgun. I /think/ I remember him doing something similar to the old Wolverine "Grab the gun pointed at your temple out of the other guy's hand before he can pull the trigger" trick as well. His dodging is just off the hook though, and the workouts mentioned previously by Hermit, also almost always include huge gymnastics routines over varied terrain and in mind-boggingly complex patterns. It could just be that he has high skill levels and lightning reflexes (in game tertms), but it seems to me that while he does have those, he also has a really solid Dex and Speed. It just always looks effortless.

 

Ultimate Cap is similar, but he also has the serum that created the Hulk in their world. He has low level regen and is just flat out tougher than a perfect speciman would be. He dodges, but not to my recollection as well or often as Mainstream Cap.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Right, Batman's so friggin' smart he can't keep Scarecrow locked up.

Please, this guy has trouble with thugs in his own comics but in JLA he's basically the eraser...

 

Well Joker kidnapped Gordon again, and I couldn't stop the skinny clown, but here i'll take on some fifth dimensional god-being like I was playing Checkers with Corkey from Life goes on...

 

Sorry, Batman is alright, Bat-God is as annoying as Wolverine, ultimate Badass...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Right, Batman's so friggin' smart he can't keep Scarecrow locked up.

Please, this guy has trouble with thugs in his own comics but in JLA he's basically the eraser...

 

Well Joker kidnapped Gordon again, and I couldn't stop the skinny clown, but here i'll take on some fifth dimensional god-being like I was playing Checkers with Corkey from Life goes on...

 

Maybe we just need a JLA arc where the Joker and the Scarecrow walk all over Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter et al, and they have to go running to Batman begging and crying to be saved.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Hugh, methinks you and I would probably read the same comics...

[Enforcer84]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

You know it's weird. I always hate when they simply write the same story again and again; for instance if Spiderman has a crisis of faith where he wants to quit but his sense of responsibility pulls him back in, one more time, I might vomit. Sure it happens, but it's gotten to the point that everytime I read an industry site or mag about Spiderman, they want to take him back to his roots, which means once more on the old Responsibility merry go round.

 

And don't get me started on bringing Aunt May back from the dead...

 

But, here, they blow up the entire Marvel Universe for me, re-write it to have modern sensibilities and a "not-so-WASPy" cast, and I can't stand it. Apparently that wasn't the evolution I wanted.

 

So, the characters must evolve but remain true to what I believe them to be... I think short of writing comics specifically FOR me, they aren't going to please me...

 

Bad Chad. No Marvel or DC for you.

[JMcL63]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Great thread this. I've just read it from beginning to end in a oner, and I just loved all the discussion. It's made me want to read about all the heroes discussed. Particulary Spidey and Batman, both of whom I really, really like.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Right' date=' Batman's so friggin' smart he can't keep Scarecrow locked up.[/quote']

 

And Reed Richards can't keep the Wingless Wizard in prison either, so what's your point?

 

This is comics. Bad guys will always escape from jail, and prison security will always suck. That is a fact that exists entirely independently from the abilities and/or skills of the heroes, and therefore it's not usable as a benchmark for those heroes.

 

Because if the definition of 'stupid' is 'your enemies keep coming back for the rematch', then by that definition pretty much everybody in comics except the Punisher is a retard.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Because if the definition of 'stupid' is 'your enemies keep coming back for the rematch', then by that definition pretty much everybody in comics except the Punisher is a retard.

 

Where, in truth, the opposite is more accurate.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

at least bats gets his villains into jail most of the time look at the x men or the avengers how many of there villains get away all the time blow up there latest lab and disapear.

supermans nemesis becomes president of the united states the x mens gets his own island nation witha huge superhuman population.

 

whats the worst thing to happen to bats the joker flees to a third world country on the otherside of the world. admittedly he got diplomatic immunity but that also made him everyones problem.

 

batman has a much better rouges gallery than most of the justice league after all you know he could deal with most of trhe flashes villains but how would the flash handle the joker or scarecrow or even the penguin.

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

at least bats gets his villains into jail most of the time look at the x men or the avengers how many of there villains get away all the time blow up there latest lab and disapear.

supermans nemesis becomes president of the united states the x mens gets his own island nation witha huge superhuman population.

 

whats the worst thing to happen to bats the joker flees to a third world country on the otherside of the world. admittedly he got diplomatic immunity but that also made him everyones problem.

 

batman has a much better rouges gallery than most of the justice league after all you know he could deal with most of trhe flashes villains but how would the flash handle the joker or scarecrow or even the penguin.

 

By punching them out in a fraction of a second before they can do anything? Seriously, I doubt Batman's villains would cause much more of a problem for him then his own do.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

We saw the Flash go up against a Batman villain.

 

The Riddler, no less. (ROBIN #62-64, when Tim's dad temporarily moved to Keystone City). Not one of the top tier. (At least, not /then/.)

 

... Wally was being run around in circles because, while he could easily thrash the Riddler once he found him, he couldn't find him. He needed Tim's help to figure out the riddles and run down the clues.

 

Sure, you drop Wally into an arena duel with any of Batman's rogue's gallery and the fight'll be over before you have a chance to spit. But given that the Joker can make even *Batman* sweat tracking him down... well, theoretically Wally could search every square inch of the planet, but there are certain practical difficulties that keep it from actually working, unless he's looking for something big and/or left out in the open.

[TheImperialKhan]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Beware! My derail-fu is mighty!

 

 

 

Why did you have to start this pissing contest up again?

 

The last time it went on for an ungodly number of posts before finally dying down from exhaustion. Nobody's mind got changed, everybody just got tired of arguing about it.

 

So now you had to come and start the fxxxxxg thing up again! Good Work!

[GTAgamemaster]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

My BAD!!! I just wanted to know if Spidey still had the alien costume when he fought Firelord. I got my answers and did my research and I am cool with it all.

 

The Bat/Cap tangent has also been amusing and very informative. I have come to a conclusion about Batman though... he seems to be the only character that has been written and evolved and retconned and epitomized the way a very creative powergamer would, if he/she also had a flare for the dramatic and an unerring talent for outwitting his/her GM/editor.

[TheImperialKhan]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

My BAD!!! I just wanted to know if Spidey still had the alien costume when he fought Firelord. I got my answers and did my research and I am cool with it all.

 

The Bat/Cap tangent has also been amusing and very informative. I have come to a conclusion about Batman though... he seems to be the only character that has been written and evolved and retconned and epitomized the way a very creative powergamer would, if he/she also had a flare for the dramatic and an unerring talent for outwitting his/her GM/editor.

 

GTAgamemaster, I'm not annoyed at you. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I'm pissed at Madstone. He knew exactly what would happen when he brought up Cap and Bats. That's why he put "dives for cover" at the end of the post.

 

It was like banging a gong after mom and dad had finally gotten the baby to sleep at 3 in the morning and now it's up and crying again. He was trolling pure and simple.

[JMcL63]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

GTAgamemaster, I'm not annoyed at you. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I'm pissed at Madstone. He knew exactly what would happen when he brought up Cap and Bats. That's why he put "dives for cover" at the end of the post.

 

It was like banging a gong after mom and dad had finally gotten the baby to sleep at 3 in the morning and now it's up and crying again. He was trolling pure and simple.

Hmm. I think you're overreacting a bit TheImperialKhan. I mean, you may be bored of this discussion, but others clearly aren't. And so what if it resolves nothing? Discussions like this are part and parcel of comics reading, and of superhero rpgs. And I didn't detect any posts that were flames, or even really close. It all seemed pretty good natured to me. What's your beef? If you don't like this kind of thread, then just ignore it. Hmm?

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Actually, I'm highly pleased with how civilized the discussion has gone this time. I thank all parties involved for making this a pleasant experience.

 

As opposed to the 300+ posts of Hell on the installment plan that we all went through /last/ time. *brrrrrrrr*

[freakboy6117]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

well considering most of flashes villains are low rent versions of batmans

 

captain cold, captain boomerang heatwave etc all have superior versions in batmans rouge gallery.

on the other hand the speedsters like professor zoom or savitar are obviously a bit out of batmans league.

 

look at batmans rouges

 

you have an immortal head of a world wide terrorist cult

several of the worlds greatest assasins

world renowed scientists and genisuses turned to crime etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

By punching them out in a fraction of a second before they can do anything? Seriously' date=' I doubt Batman's villains would cause much more of a problem for him then his own do.[/quote']

 

IMPULSE beat the Riddler. Handily. Riddler got so frustrated he just left town.

 

"You have to solve my three riddles or you'll never find the bombs."

 

"While you were laughing, I searched ever building intown and found these bombs and disarmed them."

 

"AAAARRRRGH!!!"

 

Funny that Wally couldn't use similar tricks to find the Riddler in Robin - Bart's supposed to be the one who doesn't live up to his full potential. But - as this thread points out so many times - the characters are as powerful and versatile as their writers choose to write them.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Actually, the reason Wally couldn't use similar tricks is because the Riddler's adventure with the Flash happened *after* his adventure with Impulse, and he'd learned from painful experience.

 

i.e. -- he used plans where the ability to search under every porch in town in three seconds flat wouldn't help much. (Although he did throw one of those in there as well just to keep Wally busy.)

 

One thing I liked about old-school Chuck Dixon -- he wasn't afraid to give villains an actual /learning curve/.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

actually i was going to mention that one

 

but you have to think of it terms of the diffrence between riddler and impulse

riddler may be nuts but hes very ordered plans in advance etc

 

on the other hand impulse is pure chaos he just does stuff on the spur of the moment hes the perfect foil for the riddler.

 

though really the riddler wasn't up to form with that plot it wasn't up to his normal excess he didnt seem to be trying to hard because he wanst up against batman or playing to sticks.