Spiderman Vs. Firelord

[Agent X]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

You guys either need to stick with game-speak or comic-speak. You can't keep switching back and forth when you want to make your point. You want to do it in game-speak?

 

Spider-man, 45 str, 35 dex, 23 def, 8 spd, 60 stun.

Firelord, 18d6 eb, 21 dex, 30 def, 5 speed, 80 stun.

 

On average Spider-man will do 1.5 stun to Firelord per attack. That's 12 stun per turn. I'll assume Firelord's recovery is around 20. If Spider-man dodges 5 phases and hits 3 phases, pushed only 2 phases due to end usage he still only does 18-19 stun per turn, on average. He won't do sweeps due to 1/2 DCV issues.

 

Firelord can spead his attack and lose 10d6 and still do 8d6 of effect. That 8d6 will do 28 on average. Spider-man will take 5 per attack, 25 per turn. We'll assume around a 15 Rec. Spider-man loses 10 stun per turn. and has yet hurt Firelord.

 

In game-speak it's "virtually" impossible unless Spider-man has incredible rolls and Firelord rolls poorly. Can it happen? Sure, but it's a freak occurance, not the norm.

Straw Man. You obviously didn't build Spidey correctly if he has no chance against Firelord.

[MitchellS]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

I don't think it's a freak occurance when Firelord's player is crappy and Spidey's is experienced. Also' date=' Firelord has Psyche Lims against using his best attacks as well as Overconfidence (Common, Total).[/quote']

See, now we're getting into the minutiae. What does overconfidence mean? And does Firelord really not like to use his best attacks? The guy who crushes starships in his bare hands?

 

The problem is when you look at anything too closely it starts to fall apart. Spider-man has underconfidence. Did it come into play in the issue? No. The simple fact is the writer wanted Spider-man to win and the editors thought it would be good for the character and sales. And so he won.

[MitchellS]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Straw Man. You obviously didn't build Spidey correctly if he has no chance against Firelord.

Yes, I know.

 

Of course I'd only really give Spidey and 18 ED, but for the sake of argument I let him have the 23.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

You guys either need to stick with game-speak or comic-speak. You can't keep switching back and forth when you want to make your point. You want to do it in game-speak?

 

Spider-man, 45 str, 35 dex, 23 def, 8 spd, 60 stun.

Firelord, 18d6 eb, 21 dex, 30 def, 5 speed, 80 stun.

 

On average Spider-man will do 1.5 stun to Firelord per attack. That's 12 stun per turn. I'll assume Firelord's recovery is around 20. If Spider-man dodges 5 phases and hits 3 phases, pushed only 2 phases due to end usage he still only does 18-19 stun per turn, on average. He won't do sweeps due to 1/2 DCV issues.

 

Firelord can spead his attack and lose 10d6 and still do 8d6 of effect. That 8d6 will do 28 on average. Spider-man will take 5 per attack, 25 per turn. We'll assume around a 15 Rec. Spider-man loses 10 stun per turn. and has yet hurt Firelord.

 

In game-speak it's "virtually" impossible unless Spider-man has incredible rolls and Firelord rolls poorly. Can it happen? Sure, but it's a freak occurance, not the norm.

 

Oddly, I don't efer recall Marvel (not a licensed RPG producer, Marvel itself) publishing game stats for their characters. We (the comic and game fanboys) apply the game stats to the comic characters in the fashion we consider appropriate.

 

If the stats you assign Firelord result in it being virtually impossible for Spidey to take him down, then you have not built "Marvel-Spidey" and +Marvel-Firelord", as we know from reading the specific Spider Man comics that Marvel-Spidey CAN beat Marvel-Firelord (at least before they spend 20 years' xp to get from there to here).

[sbarron]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

My post from another thread...

 

How hard can Spidey punch?

 

The punching power needed to destroy Ironman's armor or to knockout the Firelord is brick level, obviously. How high, though? Mini-brick? I don't think so. I think Spidey, when he cuts loose, can probably hit about as hard as Colossus or the Thing. While that is not Thor or Hulk level, it is just one step down. This is where I think a lot of comparisons of Spidey's power level start to lose focus. People just fail to take into account the ways Spdiey adds to his straight STR punching power.

 

In Champs terms, Spidey has about a 45 STR. He obviously has his own martial art, which nets him an additional 2-4d6N per punch. In addition, he is constantly doing move-bys, move-throughs and passing strikes. Manuevers that add his considerable movement abilities to the attack. Another 1-2d6N? So while he is actually in the 45 STR range (9d6N), he hits more like he is in the 60-75 range (12-15d6N). Very few characters can just shrug off that level of power. It's too many dice.

[Watchdog]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

You guys either need to stick with game-speak or comic-speak. You can't keep switching back and forth when you want to make your point. You want to do it in game-speak?

 

Spider-man, 45 str, 35 dex, 23 def, 8 spd, 60 stun.

Firelord, 18d6 eb, 21 dex, 30 def, 5 speed, 80 stun.

 

On average Spider-man will do 1.5 stun to Firelord per attack. That's 12 stun per turn. I'll assume Firelord's recovery is around 20. If Spider-man dodges 5 phases and hits 3 phases, pushed only 2 phases due to end usage he still only does 18-19 stun per turn, on average. He won't do sweeps due to 1/2 DCV issues.

 

Firelord can spead his attack and lose 10d6 and still do 8d6 of effect. That 8d6 will do 28 on average. Spider-man will take 5 per attack, 25 per turn. We'll assume around a 15 Rec. Spider-man loses 10 stun per turn. and has yet hurt Firelord.

 

In game-speak it's "virtually" impossible unless Spider-man has incredible rolls and Firelord rolls poorly. Can it happen? Sure, but it's a freak occurance, not the norm.

 

With respect, you need to start addressing the points I'm actually making, because what you're "responding" to bears little if any resemblance to what I've actually said.

 

Please show me where I ever said that Spider-man beating Firelord would be the "norm." I'll save you the effort: I never did. What I did say was things like:

 

If you're saying Spider-man would not win many best-of-sevens against any herald of Galactus, I don't think you'll get much of an argument for those of us on the other side.

 

I'm not saying Spidey will win every time, or even the majority of time. I am saying that unlike you, I can see plausible ways that Spider-man could occasionally win. How often? I'm not sure, but 10-20% of the time sounds about right to me.

 

Your "by the numbers" approach means little as you're deciding on both the stats and the tactics. For the sake of argument I'll give you the stats - for the most part.

 

But most people on this board - and i'm one of them - have a conception of Spider-man being able to do additional damage with his acrobatic maneuvers. Just by giving him the equivalent of a passing strike maneuver, he's going to do at least another 3d6 damage with each hit. So even if he's dodging five of his eight phases, he's doing 12d6 a hit - and with an OCV of 13 (12 + 1 for passing strike) he's going to hit unless he rolls an 18. I don't even need to push for him to do an average of 36 STUN a turn (42-30 X 3). That's 16 STUN net, after Firelord's recovery.

 

I could stop it right there. Using those two numbers, Firelord goes down in 5 turns. If Spidey's losing 10 STUN after REC each turn, he's going down in six turns. Spidey wins, just by adding a 5 pt. martial maneuver that many on the board would agree fit into Spidey's combat style.

 

But it's even more lopsided in Spidey's favor, because Firelord isn't going to hit as often as you estimated. By dodging every phase Firelord gets an attack, Spidey's DCV will be at least 15 (we'll assume it's not a martial dodge.) Firelord's OCV is 7, which means he needs a 3 to hit Spidey. Even if he spreads his blast to increase his chance of hitting Spidey as much as you say (unlikely, given that he refused to use a several block area effect attack to take him out in the first place, but what the hey), he's going to miss almost one attack out of five (He's about 84% to hit with a 13 or less). That's 5 less STUN damage per turn, meaning Spidey's only taking 5 STUN a turn. Now he'll last twelve turns to Firelord's five.

 

Edited to add: If I make it a martial dodge, Firelord's going to miss 2 out of 5 attacks by spreading the same amount.

 

We could quibble over the number's ad nauseum - Firelord should have more combat levels, Spideys defenses should be lower, etc. The point is, I didn't have to "tweak" your own example much to make Spidey a slight favorite. That's part of the reason I feel we don't have to attribute his win to a "writer's snafu."

[Starlord]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Firelord's record:

 

1-0 vs. starships

0-1 vs. Spider-Man

 

Maybe destroying the starships was a fluke....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Firelord's record:

 

1-0 vs. starships

0-1 vs. Spider-Man

 

Maybe destroying the starships was a fluke....

 

It is the only fight anyone's ever cited him winning!

[Starlord]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

See, now we're getting into the minutiae. What does overconfidence mean? And does Firelord really not like to use his best attacks? The guy who crushes starships in his bare hands?

 

The problem is when you look at anything too closely it starts to fall apart. Spider-man has underconfidence. Did it come into play in the issue? No. The simple fact is the writer wanted Spider-man to win and the editors thought it would be good for the character and sales. And so he won.

 

See, it seems to me when you look at the scenario closely it becomes more and more plausible.

 

Firelord

- 'Supposed' to be a cosmically powerful character, yet has a history of poor performance against tough opponents

- Feels area attacks would be dishonorable

- Ridiculously overconfident, brags and boasts about his power when he should be attacking, refuses to believe he's starting to lose even as he's beginning to get his butt kicked

 

Spider-Man

- Scads more experience

- Has Spider-Sense: the limits of which seem to stretch when faced with overwhelming odds making him nigh unhittable

- Underconfident character who has a proven history (even moreso than normal superheroes) of becoming extremely dangerous when pushed to the breaking point

 

Closely looking at the factors of the scenario in question, it just doesn't seem implausible to me.

[shaunclinton]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Well said Jeff T, have some rep!

[MitchellS]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Firelord's record:

 

1-0 vs. starships

0-1 vs. Spider-Man

 

Maybe destroying the starships was a fluke....

My friend, thank you. You just made my whole point for me. Take away the extreme examples at both ends and deal with what's left in the middle.

[Starlord]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

My friend' date=' thank you. You just made my whole point for me. Take away the extreme examples at both ends and deal with what's left in the middle. [/quote']

 

Sure. Take away Firelord's ability to blow away starships, and Spidey'll REALLY kick is butt. :)

[Force]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Look, it's quite simple.

 

Build Firelord. Build Spidey.

 

Duke it out.

 

Firelord should wipe the floor with Spidey.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Look, it's quite simple.

 

Build Firelord. Build Spidey.

 

Duke it out.

 

Firelord should wipe the floor with Spidey.

 

Why?

 

He didn't.

 

That fight is the single most memorable (single ONLY memorable?) thing that character ever did. Ask 9/10ths of the people who have ever heard of him about him, and they will remember him as the guy who Spiderman trashed.

 

That fight therefore defines him.

[Agent X]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Why?

 

He didn't.

 

That fight is the single most memorable (single ONLY memorable?) thing that character ever did. Ask 9/10ths of the people who have ever heard of him about him, and they will remember him as the guy who Spiderman trashed.

 

That fight therefore defines him.

What he said.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Yankees Vs. Redskins

 

I think it's freakin' hilarious that this thread has sprung back to life almost a year after it first began!

 

Just a little over a month to go for 1 Year!

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Look, it's quite simple.

 

Build Firelord. Build Spidey.

 

Duke it out.

 

Firelord should wipe the floor with Spidey.

 

So build the characters contrary to what the comics have already shown to be the result of such a fight? Firelord should wipe the floor with Spidey IF he is prepared to wipe out a large aea to do it, but that's not role playing Firelord's disadvantages.

 

Firelord stood up wel to Thor, who's got far more physical power than Spidey. Why? Thor's also hugely overconfident and honorable, and would never fight dirty, like Spidey did.

 

" 'Tis not seemly for a warrior born"

"Well, SpiderMen are made, not born"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Firelord can spead his attack and lose 10d6 and still do 8d6 of effect. That 8d6 will do 28 on average. Spider-man will take 5 per attack' date=' 25 per turn. We'll assume around a 15 Rec. Spider-man loses 10 stun per turn. and has yet hurt Firelord. [/quote']

 

Yet, in the comics, Firelord couldn't connect. Why has that not gbeen brought into game terms? Perhaps this indicates that Firelord's one-target attack powers are all purchased with Beam Effect. Perhaps he has a Psych Limit that he "always strikes with full power".

 

To me, modeling the characters requires defining them as they appear in the comics. Spidey must have a pretty good Power Skill - he's always pulling out one-off stunts that never recur (we can tell this due to his huge number of appearances - he could practically fly in Avengers #11, for example, but I've never seen that trick again). Firelord has only once combatted a character with great reflexes, and he couldn't connect. This implies an inability to spread his attacks, and maybe a lack of small-scale AoE attacks.

[MitchellS]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Hugh, I really don't have any desire to debate the issue. I said what I wanted to say: design characters based on the average, not on the extreme successes and extreme failures. No one's mind is going to change here and more posting on my part is just a waste of DOJ's money.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Hugh' date=' I really don't have any desire to debate the issue. I said what I wanted to say: design characters based on the average, not on the extreme successes and extreme failures. [/quote']

 

In general, I would agree. For characters like SpiderMan, this is essential - you can't appear non-stop for 40 years without some continuity issues. Plus, you need to decide when in his history you're building him (today's Spidey has natural web shooters, for example).

 

For characters like Firelord, with a comparative handful of appearances, I think each appearance has to be looked at seriously to try to discern some trend in the character.

 

One poster has noted this seems to be Firelord's defining storyline. I remember those 2 issues (and I don't generally follow Spidey). Other than that, I recall he appeared in Thor (but few details), and was with the Avengers for at least one plotline. He's made some appearances in Silver Surfer, generally with other Heralds. But, other than getting taken by Spidey, I can't recall any significant battles or story arcs that highlighted Firelord's abilities and limitations.

 

What I see from my recollection of his appearances is vast destructive power, a strict code of honor, vast overconfidence (maybe tempered a bit since Spidey cleaned his clock) and minimal success in one on one combat (as opposed to mass destruction like destroying spacecraft). And why should he be good at one on one combat? His job wasn't to engage in gladiatorial bouts, it was to locate planets for Galactus to consume. If he had been "doing his job", he could have flown away from Spidey and started setting up Galactus' equipment, or just moved back to the stratosphere and sent of the "dinner flare".

[MitchellS]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Most of Firelord's battles, or at least the ones I best recall, were against Hercules [this was a period in time in the silver age when Hercules and Thor used to beat on each other fairly regularly]. He fought Hercules [and some Thor] in the Thor comic before leaving with them to go and fight Ego. He was in the first Hercules limited series as well. There has been plenty of Silver Surfer appearances and several Guardians of the Galaxy appearances. And, of course, appearances in cosmic limited series such as Infinity Gauntlet.

 

I honestly don't know that much about Firelord's combat history myself, but I can say that Spider-man is the weakest opponent I have seen him lose to.

[Guest darthvegita666]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

firelord is like really awesome cause he does 5 clicks of damage until you hurt him and then he gets weak really quick which is good if you want to heal him

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Most of Firelord's battles' date=' or at least the ones I best recall, were against Hercules [this was a period in time in the silver age when Hercules and Thor used to beat on each other fairly regularly']. He fought Hercules [and some Thor] in the Thor comic before leaving with them to go and fight Ego. He was in the first Hercules limited series as well.

 

Neither Thor nor Hercules would ever consider fighting sneaky, rather than straight-up trading and taking shots.

 

There has been plenty of Silver Surfer appearances and several Guardians of the Galaxy appearances. And' date=' of course, appearances in cosmic limited series such as Infinity Gauntlet. [/quote']

 

In Silver Surfer, he never seems to do much, and no one gets much spotlight time in the cosmic crossovers (other than characters on whom it focuses, which isn't Firelord). As for GotG, again I don't remember him doing much. But, by then, he also has 1,000 years' more xp

 

I honestly don't know that much about Firelord's combat history myself' date=' but I can say that Spider-man is the weakest opponent I have seen him lose to. [/quote']

 

Least physically powerful? Sure. To my mind, Spidey is the classic achilles' heel for a guy like Firelord. He doesn't stand still and trade blows, he avoids Firelord's shots and gradually wears him down fighting sneaky. Firelord's code of honour and vast overconfidence in his superior (and it is, vastly) offensive capabilities shackle him, making Spidey's tactics even more effective.

 

Result: Spidey is a poor matchup from Firelord's perspective. He runs rings around the poor sucker, and won't stand still to be flame broiled.

[Agent X]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Hugh' date=' I really don't have any desire to debate the issue. I said what I wanted to say: design characters based on the average, not on the extreme successes and extreme failures. No one's mind is going to change here and more posting on my part is just a waste of DOJ's money. [/quote'] Spidey beating Firelord is not inconsistent and thus not extreme.

[Vigil]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Wow! For a thread that was supposed to have been a quickie, one off question this thing has really gotten out of control...so I thought I'd add some more fuel to the Firelord.

 

In building characters I have to agree with mitch. I look for the "averages", things that seem to be consistent in their appearances and build from there giving a little room for persoanal artistic interpretation (ie, if Spidey is DEX 36 then would Quicksilver be DEX 38 or DEX 30 with +8 Lightning Reflexes. Is he actually more agile than Spidey or does he just have enhanced reflexes). Those are the tricky call in characters. Beyond looking for averages, I go back to first appearances when possible to see what the author's original vision for the Character was since that tends to be a pretty good guide post on how to proceed.

 

As to the debate (and why it is a debate I'm not realy sure) I think that absolutely the only thing that can explain Spidey winning is that the author needed him to. That's it. Even the least of Glactus's heralds (and the bottom end is filling up quickly) like Red Shift and the dopey guy from Stormbreaker have SPDs and DEXs that are cosmic in scope. Personally, I don't think it's stretch to start them at about SPD 8 DEX 40 and go from there. I'd probably put Firelord, who seems more nimble than your average herald (although nowhere near the Surfer's league) around SPD 9 DEX 43. That would give him a natural OCV/DCV of 14. Conversely, as opposed to some of the other hearlds, I don't think there's much eveidence to give him skill levels (maybe with flight) so his basic OCV/DCV would be all he had to work with. If Spidey's DEX 36 with 3 or 4 levels with h to h combat then he could, conceivably at least, keep Firelord busy for a while. Ultimately though, Spidey would tire, since heralds really don't and Firelord would tag him. From there it would quickly be game over.

 

Vigil