Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

[DrTemp]

I am relatively new to Hero System, and I think, as far as I can say up to now, I like it.

There is one thing, however, which kind of bothers me:

 

Combat turns are divided into 12 Segments of 1 second each. SPD tells us when a character

is allowed to make his moves- which means, Joe Average is not supposed to be able to act every second,

but merely every six seconds.

 

Of course that does not mean that Joe will act and then freeze for six seconds until it's his turn again, but

that it takes him that long to actually prepare and perform the action. From a pure gaming perspective, this may be

interesting, make sense in the name of game balance etc..

 

But from a simulation POV: Is there actually a human being who is that slow? I simply can't imagine that.

 

Are there any "official" optional rule-replacements for this turn sequence? If no, what would be your ideas/suggestions?

[Vorsch]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

On the other hand most game systems have a 6 second turn, exactly equal to joe average, only trained agents and supers go faster.

 

No there are no optional official rules. Its the core of the system and to change it in any way is blasphemy, along with using str and 2 in the same sentence.

 

if your unhappy with the spd chart and combat issues just make everone the same spd, or use combat rounds and add spd to characters cv.

 

and my mums that slow, bless her.

[Snarf]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

In real life fights, it often takes way more than 6 seconds to throw a punch, mostly because of people pausing and watching each other, or in boxing matches, getting into clinches. The way turns work in Hero and most other RPGs is more like how fights are in a movie or comic book.

 

I once read a GURPS supplement that tried to simulate those pauses by rolling a die for the amount of turns between pauses. Maybe introducing a random element like that would help you get more realistic results.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

Actually, many people would be hard pressed to take two distinct actions per 12 seconds.

 

Also remember that some skills take a TURN or longer to perform, and some actions take longer than a 1/2 Phase.

 

Also, people dont literally stop and go stop and go. Think of them as taking their actions continuously; their Phase is simply the meaningful resolution of their action.

 

Also a character that is in motion remains in motion unless they specifically stop.

 

However, if you want to scrap the SPD and DEX concept it can be done, but it takes a lot of work and no longer feels like the HERO System to me at least.

 

One thing you could do is allow a Shadowrun style initiative, where instead of letting SPD determine how often someone goes per 12 second TURN in specific phases, instead have people make a DEX roll each "TURN". Take the amount that the roll is made by and add your SPD score to it. Then start the TURN on the person with the highest total, and go around the table incrementing by -1 per cycle; ties in the same cycle go in DEX order. Characters cannot go two cycles in a row; there must be a cycle in between actions unless the action taken was a held action or an aborted action. A character can only take one action below the 0 cycle. Each person takes an action per point of SPD until they run out of actions. People can still hold and abort. If a character continues to hold they dont lose an action as they do in the normal SPD system, however if a character holds down past 0 they may only take one action. Only 1 action may be held over into the next TURN.

 

 

So take three people:

 

P1: DEX 25 (14-) SPD 5

P2: DEX 20 (13-) SPD 4

P3: DEX 10 (11-) SPD 2

 

P1 rolls a 10 for his initiative, so he made it by 4, and adds 5 for his SPD = 9

P2 rolls a 7 for his initiative, so he made it by 6, and adds 4 for his SPD = 10

P3 rolls a 12 for his initiative, making it by -1, and adds his SPD = 1

 

10 is the highest, so combat starts at 10 and P2 can go or hold.

 

In 9 P1 can go or hold; if P2 held he can go first or wait until P1 declares and then DEX off.

 

In 8 P2 can go or hold.

 

In 7 P1 can go or hold.

 

In 6 P2 can go or hold.

 

In 5 P1 can go or hold

 

In 4 P2 can go or hold.

 

In 3 P1 can go or hold.

 

In 2 P2 can go or hold.

 

In 1 P1 and P3 can go or hold.

 

In 0 P2 can go or hold.

 

In -1 P3 can go or hold. If P1 and P2 have held additional actions they must either take one action now and/or hold an action into the next TURN.

 

Lets say that in this TURN P1 and P2 both took all of their actions, but P3 held his last action into the next TURN.

 

 

In Turn 2 Initiative is rerolled:

 

P1 rolls a 14 for his initiative, so he made it by 0, and adds 5 for his SPD = 5

P2 rolls a 16 for his initiative, so he made it by -3, and adds 4 for his SPD = 1

P3 rolls a 9 for his initiative, making it by 2, and adds his SPD = 4

 

5 is the highest, so combat would start there, but P3 has a held action from the 1st TURN; he can either take it before 5 or continue to hold.

 

P1 may go or hold in 5, 3, 1, and -1 and will be forced to hold an action into the next Turn unless he Aborts and action at some point.

 

P3 may go or hold as early as 4, but can only take two actions plus his held action from the previous Turn.

 

P2 may go or hold in 1 and -1, and will lose an action unless he Aborts at least once.

 

 

 

And so on. It allows for a fluctuating combat order and is more fluid, but also more complex and difficult to keep track of.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

In any change to the system, you need to reassess the costs of both Speed and DEX. For example, look at KS' system above. The incorporation of a DEX roll makes 5 points of DEX equivalent to +1 Speed (you'll make the DEX roll by one more). +5 DEX costs 15 points, enhances your DEX-based skills, enhances your OCV and DCV and adds 1/2 point to your Speed. If I spend 30 points on DEX, I'll get +2 to my DEX roll and +1 Speed, which gives me all the same benefits as +3 Speed, and way way more.

 

As such, if I were going to consider KS' system, I'd either want to make SPD add more than 1 to the roll per point (making it more valuable than DEX alnoe in determining speed of actions), make DEX more expensive (so you would have to pay for the extra benefits), or eliminate the Speed stat entirely and go only with DEX (since this is the effect the proposal has as written, as discussed above).

 

Of course, any of these changes will also have ramifications on the game that will need to be considered. And this is all before considering the implications of normal characteristc maxima.

 

You could go the Villains & Vigalantes' route. They rolled a d10 and added DEX. Combat starts at the highest number, and characters move at their number, and every lower increment of 15. For Hero, you could roll 3d6 (just because that's the "magic die roll"). and add Speed x 10, with characters moving at every increment of 10 (characters will average one extra move). Or use 1d6 + Speed, and move at every increment (characters will average 3 extra moves and END will become much more of an issue).

 

For me, the system works just fine as it is. Any change will have a ripple effect which would be a lot of work, and require a lot of system changes to deal with.

 

If your only issue is that you think the current system makes actions too slow, just reduce the length of a turn. If you want Joe Average to throw a punch every second, make a Turn 2 seconds, and each segment is now 1/6 of a second. Everyone has the same relative number of moves, and the only issue you may want to deal with is the substantial jump the time chart will now make between "1 turn" and "1 minute".

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

To answer your request for "official" alternatives, DrTemp, line developer Steve Long discusses several alternatives to the standard Speed Chart in his "HEROglyphs" column in issue #12 of Hero Games's electronic magazine, Digital Hero. Unfortunately I'm really not a liberty to reproduce that material here on a public forum.

 

You can find out more about DH via the appropriately named link on the left of this page. I highly recommend it BTW.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

In any change to the system, you need to reassess the costs of both Speed and DEX. For example, look at KS' system above. The incorporation of a DEX roll makes 5 points of DEX equivalent to +1 Speed (you'll make the DEX roll by one more). +5 DEX costs 15 points, enhances your DEX-based skills, enhances your OCV and DCV and adds 1/2 point to your Speed. If I spend 30 points on DEX, I'll get +2 to my DEX roll and +1 Speed, which gives me all the same benefits as +3 Speed, and way way more.

 

As such, if I were going to consider KS' system, I'd either want to make SPD add more than 1 to the roll per point (making it more valuable than DEX alnoe in determining speed of actions), make DEX more expensive (so you would have to pay for the extra benefits), or eliminate the Speed stat entirely and go only with DEX (since this is the effect the proposal has as written, as discussed above).

 

Of course, any of these changes will also have ramifications on the game that will need to be considered. And this is all before considering the implications of normal characteristc maxima.

 

Couple of quick points:

 

a) I just came up with that off the seat of my pants.

 

SPD still determines how many actions you take; the DEX roll just affects how soon in the initiative you can take them. A 2 SPD still only gets two actions in that system and thus DEX doesnt give you "everything that SPD does".

 

but yes, as I said in my own post, any change like that would require a lot of tweaking.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

Couple of quick points:

 

a) I just came up with that off the seat of my pants.

 

SPD still determines how many actions you take; the DEX roll just affects how soon in the initiative you can take them. A 2 SPD still only gets two actions in that system and thus DEX doesnt give you "everything that SPD does".

 

but yes, as I said in my own post, any change like that would require a lot of tweaking.

 

(a) - figured that. My comments were similarly unresearched.

 

( - I missed that; not reading close enough, I suppose. That would preserve considerable value to Speed.

 

Of course, we now get the issue of someone with a massive DEX running out of actions long before thugs get to move at all. [Hmm...last action - I'll put all levels on DCV and Dodge - that shuld hold 'em until the turn ends.] Like you said, a major change like this would require a lot of tweaking and playtesting.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

Of course, we now get the issue of someone with a massive DEX running out of actions long before thugs get to move at all. [Hmm...last action - I'll put all levels on DCV and Dodge - that shuld hold 'em until the turn ends.] Like you said, a major change like this would require a lot of tweaking and playtesting.

Perhaps a fair trade off for a high SPD/Dex character sometimes getting a bad roll and going after said goons, when by the normal system that would never be an issue.

 

But yeah, Im not advocating it by any means.

[Nevenall]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

But from a simulation POV: Is there actually a human being who is that slow? I simply can't imagine that.

 

It has taken me quite a while to get used to the speed chart too, but there are two points which are my solice.

1. Hero simulates literature not real life.

2. Think of each point of speed as one panel in a comic. Each point is just a picture of that character's total action for the round.

 

The second being the most handy point.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

But from a simulation POV: Is there actually a human being who is that slow? I simply can't imagine that.

For the most part, yes, if not slower.

 

Granted, just about anyone can empty the clip of a semiautomatic pistol in less than 12 seconds, with a clip size of between 8-12 rounds. Does that mean they took 8-12 actions? Nope, they just took two full phase Rapid Fire Maneuvers and didn't hit a damn thing. As for moving, it might be a little off in simulation, but do the math on just how fast a SPD two character is actually moving with a just a half move in combat. It's between 2 and 3 MPH, which doesn't sound like much until you realise they are still maintaining full awareness of their surroundings and taking other actions.

 

It's those trained agents with a SPD of 3 that can to the more complicated stuff, and a SPD of 4 would be very impressive. A SPD of five who amazing nearly anyone (imagine Bruce Lee or Jet Li, though either might simulate higher SPDs in their films).

[DrTemp]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

Thanks to all for your replies- this was very insightful for me. Even though I still disagree on how many times Joe Average can swing a club in 12 seconds or aim and shoot a semiautomatic weapon, I can see now how strongly this mechanic is tied to the Hero system.

 

It has taken me quite a while to get used to the speed chart too, but there are two points which are my solice.

1. Hero simulates literature not real life.

2. Think of each point of speed as one panel in a comic. Each point is just a picture of that character's total action for the round.

 

The second being the most handy point.

 

Quite finely summarized. So Hero is just not what I am looking for (but I fear I won't be able to resist buying those nice setting books anyway...)

[JMcL63]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

On the other hand most game systems have a 6 second turn' date=' exactly equal to joe average, only trained agents and supers go faster.[/quote']Good point. Standard HERO characters can half-move and attack in a single phase. For a SPD 2 character that's a combat move of 6 metres (nearly 20 feet) at walking speed, and an attack. This is eminently reasonable, realistic even.

 

No there are no optional official rules. Its the core of the system and to change it in any way is blasphemy, along with using str and 2 in the same sentence.

Erm, no. All rules are optional, official or otherwise, even if they are at the core of the system.

 

if your unhappy with the spd chart and combat issues just make everone the same spd, or use combat rounds and add spd to characters cv.

See BBB, p. 252 for 'Nine Ways to Speed Up Combat'.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

Thanks to all for your replies- this was very insightful for me. Even though I still disagree on how many times Joe Average can swing a club in 12 seconds or aim and shoot a semiautomatic weapon, I can see now how strongly this mechanic is tied to the Hero system.

 

 

You are forgetting/overlooking things like Sweep, Rapid Fire, Multiple Power Attacks, Two Weapon Fighting, and Autofire which allow a character to make several attacks at once in the same Phase.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

Thanks to all for your replies- this was very insightful for me. Even though I still disagree on how many times Joe Average can swing a club in 12 seconds or aim and shoot a semiautomatic weapon' date=' I can see now how strongly this mechanic is tied to the Hero system.[/quote']

There are other, less litteral, considerations as well.

 

The Hero System combat rules are designed in a way that assumed each combatant is "fighting intelligently." That meas that during your action and the actions of others, you are moving defensively, seeking openings in your opponents defense or looking for a decent shot and are keeping an eye out on your surroundings. Sure, Joe Average can swing away all he wants, but if he's fighting intelligently, he won't be able to. Granted, he can still try, using the Sweep Maneuver (which will reduce his DCV by half and give him an OCV penalty which depends on how many swings we wants to take, the more swings, the higher penalty).

 

If you ever played the old 2nd Edition AD&D, a single combat round was ONE MINUTE LONG!!! In this time the rules assume you are making several strikes, dodges and parries, and that each minute you get a single attack roll (or more, if your experienced enough) to let you know if any of your attempts to weaken your foe were succefull, and a damage roll to find out how effective.

 

While Hero doesn't quite work this way, you can always interpret the combat rules that way. All the rules are are game mechanics. They can look however you want them to.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

And before I forget:

 

Because of the rules assumption that normally everybody fights intelligenty, I've incorperated a special Physical Limitation in my games:

 

No Combat Skills: Infrequently Greatly (10 points). The effect of which is that the character is normally at 1/2 DCV in combat, and cannot usually perform all of the Combat Maneuvers available to other characters. If they perform a defensive maneuver, they get their full DCV, but the effects of the maneuver (such as a DCV bonus) only affect a single attack. Movement is always considered to be NonCombat, so if a character attacks in the same phase they moved, they will have an OCV of 0. Otherwise, attacking is made at full OCV.

 

If for some reason a player character takes this Disad, it will more likely be Frequently Greatly for 15 points.

 

As a default, normal, ordinary people has this Disad automatically.

[Turin]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

We run 4 segments/phases per 10 second turn and like it over the SPD chart. These are non-superhero campaigns though; we simulate the trained agents/jet li types with their ability to effectively make sweep maneuvers and the rapid attack skill. This IMO allows a better movement system where everyone is moving at their Running per phase and not the oddities that occur with differences in SPD.

 

Doing away with the SPD chart is listed as option 2 in Nine Ways to Speed up Combat side bar starting on page 252 of 5E.

 

The other option that I have thought about is from Twilight 2000 where the SPD chart determines when you can change your action. So if a SPD 2 character starts firing his rifle at the start of combat in Segment 12, he would continue to fire each segment till his next decision point at segment 6.

 

If while firing his rifle he runs out of out of ammo at segment 4 he wouldn't perform another action till segment 6 when he would be able to change clips.

 

You would use this same approach to someone running away, riding a horse or driving a vehicle etc. SPD would be valuable since it determines how quickly you can react to changes in your environment/situation.

 

This would solve several of my problems with the SPD chart which are mostly based around how things, even though they are suppose to take longer, are fully resolved within one segment. I haven't really given this too much thought and am not sure how much it would affect the cost of SPD.

 

Just an idea.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

Think of the 1s resolution as similar to a video game where your attacks/actions have animation times but regardless of how long the animation, the actual resolution of the attack/action is resolved in a split second. Its just a mechanical convenience.

[JMcL63]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

And before I forget:

 

Because of the rules assumption that normally everybody fights intelligenty, I've incorperated a special Physical Limitation in my games:

 

No Combat Skills: Infrequently Greatly (10 points). The effect of which is that the character is normally at 1/2 DCV in combat, and cannot usually perform all of the Combat Maneuvers available to other characters. If they perform a defensive maneuver, they get their full DCV, but the effects of the maneuver (such as a DCV bonus) only affect a single attack. Movement is always considered to be NonCombat, so if a character attacks in the same phase they moved, they will have an OCV of 0. Otherwise, attacking is made at full OCV.

 

If for some reason a player character takes this Disad, it will more likely be Frequently Greatly for 15 points.

 

As a default, normal, ordinary people has this Disad automatically.

Interesting idea. Wouldn't it, though, be easier just to rate bog standard normals as having base stats of 8 (as is-or was?). I mean, your Disad essentially strips normals of Everyman skills, and on this I can only ask you why? (It's your game, I know, I just think you might be making life unnecessarily difficult for yourself is all.) This gives them CV= 3 and SPD= 1. Just my tuppenceworth.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

Interesting idea. Wouldn't it' date=' though, be easier just to rate bog standard normals as having base stats of 8 (as is-or was?). I mean, your Disad essentially strips normals of Everyman skills, and on this I can only ask you why? (It's your game, I know, I just think you might be making life unnecessarily difficult for yourself is all.) This gives them CV= 3 and SPD= 1. Just my tuppenceworth. [/quote']

Have you ever watched a movie, and see some goof get creamed 'cuz he just stood there?

 

How about the Joe Suburbia who thinks he's a hero and does something stupid that gets him hurt (against another normal, ordinary guy)?

 

It's those people I'm simulating. The pitiful mass of normals that really aren't any use in combat, even if they form a mob. The scientist who just stands there are screams "no, no, no! You'll ruin everything!" instead of actually doing anyting about it. Or even little hobbits who rush in swords swinging, but just get swept up and captured by the uruk-hai dispite their best efforts to fight intelligently.

 

Certainly not every normal will have it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Turns, Segments, Phases and simulation

 

Base 8's and 1 or 2 SPD and low total points vs trained combatants is already extremely weak. Why complicate the matter further? Seems like a lot of effort for not much difference.