Crime and Punishment

[Blue]

There are several threads going on about killing the bad guys. This morning I was reading issue #3 of DC's "Identity Crisis". Without giving away a whole lot, I'll just say that some of DC's greatest may have been playing with the minds of criminals.

 

We've pretty much touched on Murder for "the cause", so perhaps there are other methods that we might suggest for curtailing criminals who will commit again.

 

Some general thoughts...

• Reprogramming. Is it appropriate to play with the minds of criminals or is that an invasion that is unforgivable? What if said villain knows your Secret ID or your DNPCs?
  
• Life in Solitary.
  
• Time with Hard Labor.
  
• Is there any form of punishment which might actually act as a deterrant in your universe, or living with life and death every day, are villains just that unreachable?
  
• What are the prisons like in your game? The Phantom Zone (Superman)? The Kyln (Thanos)? The Big House (She-Hulk)? Stronghold (Champions)?
  

Of course feel free to add to the questions. I think it's a pretty darn interesting aspect of the game.

[nexus]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

The super detention prisons in my main Champions campaigns are fairly tough. I didn't give them allot of "Power Surpression" technology because I don't really care for it. So containing superhumans means some very draconian measure must be taken, some of the bordering on inhumane. Its nasty place and most metahuman criminals will do flee before risking capture. I did touch on the moral questions of this during a huge prison breakout scenario where the heroes had to choose between letting two mutant criminals go or returning one who's dention cell was actually slowly and avoidable killing her (Her powers were fueled by cosmic energy, but unfortunately so was her physiology and being cut off her was shortening her life span dramatically).

 

Altering another mental state is forbidden by international law in most of the "civilized" world. This is not to say it doesn't happen, but its not talked about and prosecuted vigorously when it is revealed. Its offically a war crime as using any mental power on an prisoner of war. Unwilling genetic alteration, either to grant or remove powers is also highly illegal.

 

Many countries have "penal" teams of supers that are doing the equivalent of community service to work off their crimes. They are closely monitored and most of them have "failsafes" of some sort of another to ensure they don't run wild.

[Chimpira]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

Yeah, I have been reading Identity Crisis as well. I usually try to keep imprisonment straight forward as I am playing with a bunch of D & D converts. They tend to think that killing is the first option. Luckily, my other players keep them in line. I was just thinking that Doc Savage, the old pulp character, would actually operate on his enemies brains to change their attitude.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

I use Stronghold as a concept... and the European Union has "The Deep" which is a super prison sunk in the English Channel.

 

I also had limited "tech" vs. supers... so really dangerous types are drugged to the gills and put in hot-sleep. It is very controversial, and makes villains really NOT want to get caught!

 

As tech advanced in my campaign, I've created a consistent tech background to explain stuff unlike most supers campaigns... things like energy drains and such have been created, but they are new and limited, and have to be attuned to a specific meta-biology, etc.

[Blue]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

I've got "The Keep", state of the art super-prison which does indeed neutralize powers. BUT... I might add that it was put into the game in the campaign city for the climax of leg 1 of the campaign, when the heroes have to BREAK IN so they can prevent an unjust execution.

 

Repercussions are that since the heroes have shown it can be done, the whole place is being redevloped and is now under Federal control of PRIMUS during the redesign and any changes are being overseen by the hero team's liason, Uncle Slam.

 

As for punishment, at this point there is no mind-wiping, and the death penalty is now at a serious halt due to the near execution of someone who may have been innocent.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

There are several threads going on about killing the bad guys. This morning I was reading issue #3 of DC's "Identity Crisis". Without giving away a whole lot, I'll just say that some of DC's greatest may have been playing with the minds of criminals.

 

We've pretty much touched on Murder for "the cause", so perhaps there are other methods that we might suggest for curtailing criminals who will commit again.

 

The difficulty of punishing super-criminals is one of the attractions of the setting. It presents unique ethical and practical problems, and often insures repeat appearances of your bad guys.

 

Some general thoughts...

• Reprogramming. Is it appropriate to play with the minds of criminals or is that an invasion that is unforgivable? What if said villain knows your Secret ID or your DNPCs?
  

 
I'd say this is equivalent of murder. And raises the issues of the permanence or lack there of in the criminal's reprogramming, how to handle psionics or other strong willed villains. I'd say it is an interesting idea, but in America a drastic violation of personal liberty (and the 5th amendment right to be secure in body).
 

Life in Solitary.
Time with Hard Labor.

 
I doubt i'd want to take super-powered crooks out on a chain gang or give them enough freedom of movement for hard labor. But solitary or confinement to cell for term of sentince is possible.
 
I agree with Nexus' statement about draconian measurements rather than simple "power suppression". Anyone read "Streets of Poison" in Captain America where they show Bullseye's cell?
 

Is there any form of punishment which might actually act as a deterrant in your universe, or living with life and death every day, are villains just that unreachable?

 
What about power neutralization? electronic monitoring for life? life imprisonment? or the death penalty?
 
It is wrong for heroes (who are individuals) to kill, but the government is another story.
 

What are the prisons like in your game? The Phantom Zone (Superman)? The Kyln (Thanos)? The Big House (She-Hulk)? Stronghold (Champions)?

Of course feel free to add to the questions. I think it's a pretty darn interesting aspect of the game.

 

I generally model after Stronghold or Marvel's Vault.

[Bunyip]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

On the idea of 'reprogramming' a villain's mind so that he goes forth and sins no more, I am reminded of this being done in Marvel's 'Squadron Supreme' miniseries back in the '80s (?) Done for the best of reasons, but wide open to abuse, and indeed so abused by the Squadron... with some pretty nasty consequences for everyone, 'good' and 'bad' guys alike...

[Blue]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

What about power neutralization? electronic monitoring for life? life imprisonment? or the death penalty?

 

Power neutralization is a good addition here. It's analogous to chemical castration for sex offenders in real life. I think I'd bring in all the ACLU types as well if I implemented something like that in-game, but it's an interesting thought.

 

As for electronic monitoring, that's one of the "mystery" disadvantages for one of my players. Their character has an implant which allows the gov to track her wherever she goes.

 

I generally consider the Death Penalty to not be a deterrant in-game, because supervillains are constantly in peril of losing their lives, and they're in peril by choice. The Death Penalty that would be achieved after trials, appeals, and a long drawn out process holds no fear for them. I think most would consider life in prison without their super-gadgets, etc., to be pretty daunting.

[nexus]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

I decided the neutralization of inborn powers had been outlawed as a punishment in the US due both to fears of genetic manipulation, its inherantly unfair (In my game, it only works on born mutants) and a slippery slope argument about removing other "unfavorable" genetic tendencies. It made sense at the time.

[Mentor]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

I have explored the idea of "reprogramming" villains, especially given that one of my PCs is a mentalist. My version constists of an aversion to action rather than permanent mind control definition. In other words, the villain can still conceive of and think about doing evil, but cannot carry the thoughts into action. This eliminates the whole "killing the soul" arguement as the personality is not eliminated but the body's ability to commit the evil deed is prevented through psychic rather than physical incarceration. Obviously, some will not see the distinction.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

In my current campaign there will likely be some form of "fast track" for criminal cases involving use of paranormal abilities or "restricted" technologies(i.e., power armor), so that criminals can be brought to trial and processed quickly. There will be three levels of detention: Big City SuperMax(essentially a slightly upgraded regular maximum security facility); Freedom City's VAULT(the most secure facility on the planet); and likely an "exile" colony on Mars or Titan. No democratic nation in my campaign has a death penalty.

Some of the fascist states in the campaign, like China or Taraqistan, use summary execution or "reconditioning"(i.e., brainwashing or psychic surgery) on prisoners with superhuman abilities.

more as it occurs to me...

[Blue]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

I have explored the idea of "reprogramming" villains' date=' especially given that one of my PCs is a mentalist. My version constists of an aversion to action rather than permanent mind control definition. In other words, the villain can still conceive of and think about doing evil, but cannot carry the thoughts into action. This eliminates the whole "killing the soul" arguement as the personality is not eliminated but the body's ability to commit the evil deed is prevented through psychic rather than physical incarceration. Obviously, some will not see the distinction.[/quote']

Ah, sort of like Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, with a chip in his head that won't let him actualy do harm although he constantly wants to.

 

I can see ways around this. One could still hire goons, or perhaps simply give harmful information about the good guys to all his enemies. It could get ugly.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

It is wrong for heroes (who are individuals) to kill' date=' but the government is another story.[/quote']

 

I sincerely do not want to derail an interesting thread, but this is an assertion I with which I disagree most strongly. It is as wrong for one person to silence millions as it is for millions to silence one.

 

Power is not authority.

 

I won't pursue this, and I will preemptively agree to disagree with anyone who would like to argue about it. But I did want to make clear that SleepyDrug's assertion is not a universally agreed-upon truth, even in a universe where people fly and fire energy beams from their jewelry.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

I can see ways around this. One could still hire goons' date=' or perhaps simply give harmful information about the good guys to all his enemies.[/quote']

 

Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man. Possibly the best scene in that entire movie.

[Blue]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

I sincerely do not want to derail an interesting thread, but this is an assertion I with which I disagree most strongly. It is as wrong for one person to silence millions as it is for millions to silence one.

 

Power is not authority.

 

I won't pursue this, and I will preemptively agree to disagree with anyone who would like to argue about it. But I did want to make clear that SleepyDrug's assertion is not a universally agreed-upon truth, even in a universe where people fly and fire energy beams from their jewelry.

I think that's understood. Don't worry about it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

In the longest running Champions game I was part of, we had several "super prisons".

 

First there was Stronghold, which was the oldest, the simplest, and the most frequently escaped. Built in the late 1970s, it was very similar to a normal prison in terms of how prisoners were housed; it was in upstate New York, and was operated by the State of New York with lots of Federal funding. There were a few other "super prisons" constructed in other states in the following years: for the most part they tried to ameliorate Stronghold's more obvious deficiencies, but in the process they also introduced a few new ones.

 

Then there was the Hiram Hellstrom Federal Paranormal Containment Facility, aka "Hellhole". Its location was a national secret (White Sands, New Mexico, actually), and it was operated directly by the FSPD. Prisoners were neutralized, sedated, and kept physically isolated from each other and from all human contact. Only the most ruthlessly violent, most incorrigible habitual offenders were sent to Hellhole, mainly because it was horrifically expensive to operate.

 

There were rumours of a third facility, in which paranormals were subjected to inhuman experiments until they were allowed to die. That was just a rumour, of course. No such facility existed.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

As for "mind-wiping", I played a magic-based character for a very long time, who was 100% completely opposed to killing anyone even arguably "human" (as she defined the term: biology was not necessarily relevant). She was, however, completely willing to Transform particularly nasty individuals into small amphibians, or, in extraordinary cases, to use Power Destruction: INT to reduce them to harmless vegetables.

 

There were more than a few disagreements about this between my character and the members of the team of which she was a part-time member. In particular, the character with "no code vs. killing" (this was a valid psych lim in that game, as it is in any game that I myself run) was vehemently opposed to such actions, deeming it cruel, dishonorable, and far worse than death.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

Originally Posted by SleepyDrug

It is wrong for heroes (who are individuals) to kill, but the government is another story.

 

I sincerely do not want to derail an interesting thread, but this is an assertion I with which I disagree most strongly. It is as wrong for one person to silence millions as it is for millions to silence one.

 

Power is not authority.

 

I won't pursue this, and I will preemptively agree to disagree with anyone who would like to argue about it. But I did want to make clear that SleepyDrug's assertion is not a universally agreed-upon truth, even in a universe where people fly and fire energy beams from their jewelry.

 

Actually, it is. People may debate the circumstances that due process justify killing; but no one would really argue that the government has the right to kill. It is a perk that comes with being a "sovereign" body.

 

If this position were untrue, then the government would not have the legal right to authorize the military to kill, or to authorize a police officer to kill.

 

When we argue about the death penalty, rules of engagement, and other such issues. We're discussing whether proper justification and due process was used in the killing.

 

Unless the police in your campaign world never kill.

 

To stay on topic, the complexity of punishment with supers is that no punishment will restrain/punish all supers. Someone's powers will disrupt things sooner or later.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

the complexity of punishment with supers is that no punishment will restrain/punish all supers. Someone's powers will disrupt things sooner or later.

 

Indeed: this is part of why the post-Stronghold prisons (in the game to which I referred, above), while better, were still not impregnable nor inescapable. Each new system introduced to eliminate a "loophole" in Stronghold's original security model had the potential to create a new "loophole" for someone who had the specific powers required to take advantage of it.

 

I actually got a kick out of that. I did not realize it at the time, but it was my first exposure to the concept of "unintended consequences".

[Mister E]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

In my campaign, metahumans who commit crimes, no matter how petty, are considered "threats to national security", and thus have no rights, as per the Patriot Act inacted after a metahuman disaster in 1984.

 

No trial. Nothing. They just start brainwashing the "victoms" as soon as they get their hands on them, similar to The Clockwork Orange, or what is actually going on in the world today.

 

Months later, the once "Meta-Criminals" are back on the streets, totally reformed and gung-ho about how great America is, and how evil its enemies are. They've been given new names, new lives, and "recruited" as government field meta-ops.

 

As far as the death penalty, anybody that kills a known meta-criminal is awarded the Medal of Honor by the President. It would be like killing Osama Bin Laden on Sept. 12th.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

In my campaign, metahumans who commit crimes, no matter how petty, are considered "threats to national security", and thus have no rights, as per the Patriot Act inacted after a metahuman disaster in 1984.

 

No trial. Nothing. They just start brainwashing the "victoms" as soon as they get their hands on them, similar to The Clockwork Orange, or what is actually going on in the world today.

 

Months later, the once "Meta-Criminals" are back on the streets, totally reformed and gung-ho about how great America is, and how evil its enemies are. They've been "recruited" as government field meta-ops.

 

As far as the death penalty, anybody that kills a known meta-criminal is awarded the Medal of Honor by the President. It would be like killing Osama Binladin on Sept. 12th.

 

Wow, that must be hell for the superheroes. They have to operate very tightly(and avoid ticking off any corrupt officials in government) to avoid getting mindwiped.

 

I can see a Menton-type villain wreaking havoc on such a system. After all, once someone's been "reprogrammed" once, it's undoubtedly easier to do so again

[Mister E]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

Wow, that must be hell for the superheroes. They have to operate very tightly(and avoid ticking off any corrupt officials in government) to avoid getting mindwiped.

 

I can see a Menton-type villain wreaking havoc on such a system. After all, once someone's been "reprogrammed" once, it's undoubtedly easier to do so again

 

Yes, superheroes in my campaign are pretty much non-existent. Meta-humans in general are super-rare. This has helped make the player characters seem that much more special. It's the Silver Age heroes in the Iron Age world thing.

 

As far as the brainwashing thing, it isn't stated, but I've pretty much decided that the whole world exists in varied states of brainwashing.

[Wanderer]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

Given that I prefer settings with high-powered (cosmic-level) levels of power, a somehow realistic socio-political and legal system, and varying levels of super-technology, I generally use these systems for dealing with criminal supers by the legal system:

 

(if "Power Negator" super-technology is available in the setting)

Time in Maximum Security Stronghold-like prison with being fitted a Power Negator Restraining Device

 

Time in Maximum Security Stronghold-like prison being held in "hot sleep" animated suspension/cryogenics/super-drugs-induced coma

 

(if extradimensional super-technology is available in the setting)

Exile in Phantom Zone-like Prison Dimension

 

(if prisoner agrees) Sentenced to Community Service, or Service in the Military, while being fitted with Mind Control Restraining Device enforcing aversion to criminal behavior and/or Electronic Monitoring

 

Worst and most dangerous recidivist criminal supers are given life sentences. Death penalty is a theoretical possibility in the books, but it is not actually often pursued due to the practical difficulty of coming up with an effective execution method for cosmically-powered supers, and the extreme levels of destructiveness criminal supers have shown if death penalty was known to be a real possibility. Besides, the government is often eager to keep "reformed" supers alive for reuse in the military, intelligence service, community service, and the like.

 

(if the technology is available) Permanent Brainwashing may be a controversial sentence alternative to life if the convict agrees in democratic countries, or an option in dictatorial ones. It arouses much human rights issues, though, and it's long-term efficacy is equally controversial.

 

Since no method can be shown to have a 100% effectiveness (occasional malfunctions may allow super.convicts to throw off the power suppression or awake from hot sleep, and stage a breakout, restraining devices may malfunction or be found a way around, brainwashing may fail or be thrown off in the long term, accomplices may storm the super-prison or create a gate to the prison dimension, and resourceful supers have occasionally found a way back from extra-dimensional exile), proper treatment of criminal supers is a very hot political topic.

 

Given that I often prefer to play and GM law-defying vigilantes and revolutionary supers rather than law-abiding or legally-sanctioned heroes, facing these situations may be an issue for PCs as well as for NPCs.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

In the longest running Champions game I was part of' date=' we had several "super prisons".[/quote']

 

I have started putting some of my Champions game group's setting and source material online. There is a lot of it, and I have only just started, but you might find this part about the FSPD interesting. Or you might not. I make no promises.

[OddHat]

Re: Crime and Punishment

 

Some general thoughts...

• Reprogramming. Is it appropriate to play with the minds of criminals or is that an invasion that is unforgivable? What if said villain knows your Secret ID or your DNPCs?
  
• Life in Solitary.
  
• Time with Hard Labor.
  
• Is there any form of punishment which might actually act as a deterrant in your universe, or living with life and death every day, are villains just that unreachable?
  
• What are the prisons like in your game? The Phantom Zone (Superman)? The Kyln (Thanos)? The Big House (She-Hulk)? Stronghold (Champions)?
  

Of course feel free to add to the questions. I think it's a pretty darn interesting aspect of the game.

 

The pattern in most of my current games is similar.

 

Reprogramming - Government Telepaths do this as a matter of course if the crime would otherwise carry the death penalty. Since most Super crimes do involve significant risk of loss of life in my game worlds (Bronze-Iron), most Super Criminals that end up caught will face varying levels of reprogramming before being turned over to their new lives as Government Supers; most of the CIA's Supers are reprogrammed criminals.

 

Life in Solitary - Unenforceable without super-tech, and a "waste" of a potentially useful Super.

 

Time with Hard Labor - Supers who can be controlled can "work off" their crimes by working for government agencies, depending on their crimes and powers. This is the prefered means of dealing with Super Criminals.

 

Deterrant - Maybe. I follow the Aberrant idea that any person with powers can make a good living off of them, which means that only the mentally ill, sociopaths, or politically motivated beome Super-Criminals. Some espionage activities count as crimes as well. Some of the more rational members of these groups may be deterred by knowing that an effective term of indentured servitude is the punishment for most crimes against property, while crimes that result in deaths may mean a lifetime of slavery.

 

Prisons: Real world, no super-tech. No prison can be trusted to hold metahumans, so they're kept bagged and drugged until the telepaths can get to them. Anyone too powerful to be held probably wouldn't have been aptured in the first place.

 

Look at what 9/11 did to Civil Rights in the USA. All it would take is a few major super crimes, and the entire Bill of Rights as it applied to suspected Super-crooks would go out the window.